Pakistan, 50 years ago

[architect_cobb]

You misunderstand me, what I am saying is that Islamism and anti-Indianism have been used to justify Pakistan, and the dominance of the Mosque-Military complex within it. I am also saying that this was almost inevitable, the roots have been present since inception. Those are the bad ideas that should collapse.

No it was not present since inception. It was seeded by Indian leadership in 1948 by going back on its words for plebiscite in Kashmir. Watered in 1965 and cemented in 1971 when India severed Pakistan's east wing.
So the hatred was neither inevitable nor destiny. And you as Indians have as much to lose from this hatred as Pakistan. Not to mention that the bad IDEAS when they grow they are not limited geographically, so hope they collapse but I see them taking root in some Indian quarters as well.

 

[nForce]

No it was not present since inception. It was seeded by Indian leadership in 1948 by going back on its words for plebiscite in Kashmir. Watered in 1965 and cemented in 1971 when India severed Pakistan's east wing.
So the hatred was neither inevitable nor destiny. And you as Indians have as much to lose from this hatred as Pakistan. Not to mention that the bad IDEAS when they grow they are not limited geographically, so hope they collapse but I see them taking root in some Indian quarters as well.

Many people talk about plebiscite and UN referendum on Kashmir,and say it was India's fault,without actually knowing what they are talking about or what were the clauses of Article 47.It has been posted many times in this forum,once more for you:

The Government of Pakistan should undertake to use its best endeavors:
To secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistani nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purposes of fighting, and to prevent any intrusion into the State of such elements and any furnishing of material aid to those fighting in the State;
To make known to all concerned that the measures indicated in this and the following paragraphs provide full freedom to all subjects of the State, regardless of creed, caste, or party, to express their views and to vote on the question of the accession of the State, and that therefore they should co-operate in the maintenance of peace and order.

As asked for in the UN article,it was binding that Pakistan vacates the captured territory,which they never did,thus violating the conditions.It was not India,which went back on plebiscite,but Pakistan,which did not hold their own correct.This territory,still lies with Pakistan,and the hypocrisy of it,they call it 'Azad Kashmir'.

 

[architect_cobb]

Many people talk about plebiscite and UN referendum on Kashmir,and say it was India's fault,without actually knowing what they are talking about or what were the clauses of Article 47.It has been posted many times in this forum,once more for you:



As asked for in the UN article,it was binding that Pakistan vacates the captured territory,which they never did,thus violating the conditions.It was not India,which went back on plebiscite,but Pakistan,which did not hold their own correct.This territory,still lies with Pakistan,and the hypocrisy of it,they call it 'Azad Kashmir'.

Well that was not the only event mentioned in my post. Not to mention that I would rather not derail the topic by discussing Kashmir issue over here, so lets agree to disagree since there are more than a billion people who disagree on this aspect. So it would be futile to try to convince you that the crux of the resolution was the will of the Kashmiri people. And nothing else.

Anyways the point was that Kashmir, 1965 and 1971 were defining moments in this gradual slip into extremism for Pakistan and that ideas have no geographic boundaries, thats what makes them scary, so those Indians(and I am not talking specifically about you) who celebrate the state of affairs in Pak today should probably take steps to prevent the infiltration of these IDEAS into Indian quarters since historically all those IDEAS which infiltrated the present day Pakistan never stopped here and continued the push to the areas under present day Indian control.

 

[Rig Vedic]

No it was not present since inception. It was seeded by Indian leadership in 1948 by going back on its words for plebiscite in Kashmir. Watered in 1965 and cemented in 1971 when India severed Pakistan's east wing.
So the hatred was neither inevitable nor destiny. And you as Indians have as much to lose from this hatred as Pakistan. Not to mention that the bad IDEAS when they grow they are not limited geographically, so hope they collapse but I see them taking root in some Indian quarters as well.

The Kashmir problem began with an unprovoked attack by Pakistani tribals on Maharaja Hari Singh's independent Kingdom. The raiders, which were led by Pakistan Army officers, unleashed terror on the people of J&K.

See LRB · Tariq Ali · Bitter Chill of Winter :

Back in Rawalpindi, Anwar had returned from his honeymoon and the invasion began. The key objective was to take Srinagar, occupy the airport and secure it against the Indians. Within a week the Maharaja’s army had collapsed. Hari Singh fled to his palace in Jammu. The 11th Sikh Regiment of the Indian Army had by now reached Srinagar, but was desperately waiting for reinforcements and didn’t enter the town. The Pathan tribesman under Khurshid Anwar’s command halted after reaching Baramulla, only an hour’s bus ride from Srinagar, and refused to go any further. Here they embarked on a three-day binge, looting houses, assaulting Muslims and Hindus alike, raping men and women and stealing money from the Kashmir Treasury. The local cinema was transformed into a rape centre; a group of Pathans invaded St Joseph’s Convent, where they raped and killed four nuns, including the Mother Superior, and shot dead a European couple sheltering there. News of the atrocities spread, turning large numbers of Kashmiris against their would-be liberators. When they finally reached Srinagar, the Pathans were so intent on pillaging the shops and bazaars that they overlooked the airport, already occupied by the Sikhs.

So, the roots of the hatred are much deeper than you are willing to acknowledge. It was this hatred that motivated the Muslim League cadres to unleash a bloodbath in response to Jinnah's strident call for Direct Action, that motivated the slogans "Hans ke liya hai Pakistan , lar ke lenge Hindustan" and "Pakistan ka Matlab kyaa ..."

 

[T-Faz]

The Kashmir problem began with an unprovoked attack by Pakistani tribals on Maharaja Hari Singh's independent Kingdom. The raiders, which were led by Pakistan Army officers, unleashed terror on the people of J&K.

You forgot to mention the con work done by India to retain Kashmir:

August 18, The Nawab of Mohammad Mahabat Khanji III, ruler of the Princely state of Junagadh, a former British Protectorate since 1807 and the other small states of Bantva, Manavadar and Sardargadh, were also former British Protectorates since 1818 of the Kathiawar Peninsula despite an overall Hindu majority of the population all acceded to the Dominion of Pakistan, this was influenced by Shah Nawaz Bhutto the Dewan of the state. In response the Dominion of India claimed that the accession was invalid, since the states were surrounded by India and demanded a Plebiscite on the future of Junagadh and Manavadar (princely state). Pakistan agreed, on condition that votes also be held in Hyderabad State and Kashmir and Jammu; India rejected this proposal and also refused to allow the Government of Pakistan any role in administering a plebiscite. The dispute was the first serious crisis in Indo-Pakistani relations.

Not all of these tribals and or officers were involved in crimes, crimes did occur and these people were wrong but not everyone can be classified in the same category and the fact is that you only have limited sources for this. You soldiers continue to commit such crimes to this day and you do not punich them for it which is very unfortunate.3

So, the roots of the hatred are much deeper than you are willing to acknowledge. It was this hatred that motivated the Muslim League cadres to unleash a bloodbath in response to Jinnah's strident call for Direct Action, that motivated the slogans "Hans ke liya hai Pakistan , lar ke lenge Hindustan" and "Pakistan ka Matlab kyaa ..."

So the Congress was an angelic force who was not trying to outmaneuver the Muslim League, the congress freely created and supported the Majlis-e-Ahrar, a breakaway group, who were the first violent sectarian party. The hate amongst the cadres of the Congress was so intense that they were willing to initiate sectarian warfare amongst Muslims in order to achieve their goals.

The role of Majlis-e-Ahrar (truly the real grandfather organization of all Islamic Extremist Parties in the subcontinent and also of all anti-Shia and anti-Ahmadi agitation in Pakistan subsequently) is the most significant when it comes to Militant Islam in the subcontinent. This was a pre-partition body of Nationalist Muslims who had sided with the Congress throughout the independence movement and had been part of satyagraha (this is significant) at the time they believed in secular nationalism and secular India and in 1931 formed itself as a Indian Nationalist Muslim body, separate from the Congress, but always in support of it and in staunch opposition to the Muslim League.

The Short And Sordid History Of Majlis-e-Ahrar-e-Islam | Pak Tea House

Also most of these slogans are a myth, Jinnah never endorsed them and neither were they very popular.

It is said that Pakistan was created with the use of the slogans “Islam in danger” and “Pakistan ka matlab kya, La illaha ilallah”, both slogans which — ironically — were never used by Quaid-e-Azam himself. Indeed Jinnah ruled out “Pakistan ka matlab kiya, La illaha illallah” when he censured a Leaguer at the last session of the All India Muslim League after partition in these words: “Neither I nor the Muslim League Working Committee ever passed a resolution — Pakistan ka matlab kiya — you may have used it to catch a few votes.”

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

 

[nForce]

Well that was not the only event mentioned in my post. Not to mention that I would rather not derail the topic by discussing Kashmir issue over here, so lets agree to disagree since there are more than a billion people who disagree on this aspect. So it would be futile to try to convince you that the crux of the resolution was the will of the Kashmiri people. And nothing else.

Anyways the point was that Kashmir, 1965 and 1971 were defining moments in this gradual slip into extremism for Pakistan and that ideas have no geographic boundaries, thats what makes them scary, so those Indians(and I am not talking specifically about you) who celebrate the state of affairs in Pak today should probably take steps to prevent the infiltration of these IDEAS into Indian quarters since historically all those IDEAS which infiltrated the present day Pakistan never stopped here and continued the push to the areas under present day Indian control.

Uhh.. Kashmir and the UN resolution.The fun fact is,it came up in UN,due to the stands take by Governments of India and Pakistan,and the will that you are talking about was no where represented by anybody.Coming down to basics,it was all about who gets Kashmir.But I agree with you.Lets not go into further surgical details and chain of events.Let sanity prevail.

The issues and ideas that you are pointing is indeed on of the worst case scenario,that can happen to India.
But then the chances are less,considering the Indian society.I am not saying that the Indian society is full with righteous and just peace loving utopian society.I am just referring to the mixed state of the society.There are people from different religion,culture and ethnicity living side by side and with the days passing by,this intermixing is increasing more and more.
One good thing about this mixed culture is a general level of acceptance of people from different backgrounds.May be its just a co incidence,albeit a good one.
It is way too difficult to have any extremist and radical ideology to unify the people and end up with something in the line similar with what is happening in Pakistan.
If the idea is religion,then we have way too much diversity there.Hence even if there are some flares,they are contained.
If the idea is Nazi-style socialism,then we have many different races and ethnicity here.
If the idea is fascism,then we have a society and education system,which is way too liberal.

Still then,better to be safe than sorry.I am not one of those who feels happy that the neighbour's house is on fire.I am just happy that the volume of terrorist attacks launched from foreign soil has reduced to a great extent,and now there is peace and prosperity in the valley,reasons,whatever they may be.