"Pakistan - 5,000 years old" PMIK in China

[Indus Pakistan]

Indian is name after Indus (Pakistan

The irony is our River Indus is the root for so many places -

• Indo-nesia
• Indi-ana [USA]
  
• Indi-es [West Indies]
• Indo-China
• Indi-a [Gangaland]
  
• etc

Indus Saga

 

[Yankee-stani]

The irony is our River Indus is the root for so many places -

• Indo-nesia
• Indi-ana
• Indi-es [West Indies]
• Indo-China
• Indi-a
• etc

Indus Saga

Cant wait to watch this Doc, Aftab Iqbal is great dude doing service to help promote Pakistan with this doc and his new channel Indus News

 

[Mutakalim]

Salafis are not Sunnis in the traditional sense, because Ahlus Sunnah wa al Jamaat is identified by the 4 mazahib (schools) and the ijma ul ulema (consensus of scholars.)

To Sunnis, they are equally as erroneous as Shias, Wahabbis, Ismailis, some MB factions, and other sects of Islam who don’t follow the traditions of the Prophet Muhammad saws completely.

In relation to Khawarij and Radical Salafism, these are generally the ones who have a confused and false view of history.

It all has to do with rejection of Islamic tradition and scholarship which leads to religious illiteracy.

Agreed, to the extent that they are not Sunnis in traditional sense, as majority of them are Ghair Muqalideen. It's a misconception that they do no accept Ijma as a source. In fact, they stresses more on authenticity and viability of Ijma than Qiyas. Four Mazahib of Fiqh accept Qiyas as a source but Salafis dont, that is a major difference regarding Ilm e Fiqh.

Coming to theology, there is a difference of opinion on some Masail of Ilm ul Kalam, but that dosnt go to an extent that we separate them from rest of Sunnis.

I dont want to go into the detail of this issue because I feel that we are distracting from the original discussion.

We cannot ignore this. Thanks @Indus Pakistan for the image.

A map is not an answer to all of the objection raised.

 

[Mutakalim]

Allama Iqbal also supported the founding of Pakistan, and even once posited a unity in British India between Hindus and Muslims like Quaid e Azam (sub se acha hai Hindustan hamara.)

Firstly, Allama Iqbal supported the creation of Pakistan based on the narrative which I have mentioned in previous posts. Secondly, even a student of Iqbaliat knows this fact that Iqbal was a nationalist like Quaid, in his initial days of political struggle. The mentioned poem was written in those days. In his later days he categorically rejected the notion of Indian nationalism, which I have quoted earlier. This same narrative is discussed and elaborated in his lectures which were Published as "Reconstruction of Religious thought in Islam".

However just like Quaid e Azam, he realized that the differences were two vast and that we were two different nations (Two Nation Theory.)

If we accept two nations theory then we also have to accept it's corollaries and inferences which can be drawn from it. You are, as far as I am able to understand, accepting the two nations theory without agreeing to it's foundational principles, which were discussed earlier. Dont you think it's a contradiction in itself?

Eventually that theory became more defined when BD was formed and left Pakistan, and further when Indian Muslims largely abandoned Kashmiris and openly spewed hatred for Pakistan all around the world.

I dont know who defined that theory and who restricted it in scope and essence, as you are claiming. Creation of BD is an argument which goes against two nation theory. I dont know how you are able to accept relevance and authenticity of two nation theory while restricting it's scope. If we go by this narrative then IMHO, assertions of Indus Pakistan seem to be more plausible. The assertion that there is no such thing as Ummah or Muslim brotherhood and further that state should have nothing to do with religion.

Just a humble piece of advice, please do not mix actions of Muslims with Islam. These are two entirely different things. Muslims can do wrong things, their narrative can be substandard or illogical. Wrongdoings of Muslims can not, and I repeat can not be attributed to Islam. Similarly, wrongdoings of Muslims does not effect the ideological construct of the Muslim nation.

Pakistan is one qawm, which is totally different from the Indian qawm and Bangladeshi qawm.

Pakistani Qawm is different but can I ask the question that on what basis? How Pakistani nation is different from Indians and Bengali Muslims? Please elaborate it.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Agreed, to the extent that they are not Sunnis in traditional sense, as majority of them are Ghair Muqalideen. It's a misconception that they do no accept Ijma as a source. In fact, they stresses more on authenticity and viability of Ijma than Qiyas. Four Mazahib of Fiqh accept Qiyas as a source but Salafis dont, that is a major difference regarding Ilm e Fiqh.

Coming to theology, there is a difference of opinion on some Masail of Ilm ul Kalam, but that dosnt go to an extent that we separate them from rest of Sunnis.

I dont want to go into the detail of this issue because I feel that we are distracting from the original discussion.

They reject 4 mazahib of Islam, reject our scholars and books, and only accept their scholars (such as Al Albani) and their judgement on authenticity of hadith.

They are not Sunnis in the traditional sense.

Let’s agree to disagree.

Dont you think it's a contradiction in itself?

No, I don’t see any contradiction.

I dont know how you are able to accept relevance and authenticity of two nation theory while restricting it's scope.

I accept that not all Muslims in Bara Sagheer (subcontinent) are part of the historical process and mindset that made Pakistan.

Pakistani Qawm is different but can I ask the question that on what basis? How Pakistani nation is different from Indians and Bengali Muslims? Please elaborate it.

The historical experience, mindset, religious worldview, and basic culture are vastly different.

The way Pakistan moved away from the subcontinent and Bengal, towards its North and West is the traditional gravitation of our society.

We always had more in common with Afghanistan, Iran, and Turkey than anyone to our East.

 

[Mutakalim]

They reject 4 mazahib of Islam, reject our scholars and books, and only accept their scholars (such as Al Albani) and their judgement on authenticity of hadith.

That is their mistake and a serious one. I am a Muqalid and I fully understand the significance of Taqlid. I have passed through a stage of my life in which I used to discard them from Ahl e Sunnat and also I used to argue that how they are equal in stature with Khwarij. Inshallah, you will also get through this stage and will start thinking about the collective benefit of entire Muslim Ummah. I consider Shias, Wahabis, Sunnis, Deobandis, Barelvis, Hanfis, shafis, Malkis and Humbalis as my brothers in faith. We have serious differences of opinion but we all are followers of Muhammad e Arbi (P.B.U.H), this fact make us one nation, one body and one soul.

The historical experience, mindset, religious worldview, and basic culture are vastly different.

The way Pakistan moved away from the subcontinent and Bengal, towards its North and West is the traditional gravitation of our society.

We always had more in common with Afghanistan, Iran, and Turkey than anyone to our East.

For me, these are very vague terms. Nevertheless, you have your point of view and I respect that.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Inshallah, you will also get through this stage and will start thinking about the collective benefit of entire Muslim Ummah.

I was only referring to doctrinal differences.

I am secure in my beliefs, I don’t need to reach someone else’s mindset.

I consider Shias, Wahabis, Sunnis, Deobandis, Barelvis, Hanfis, shafis, Malkis and Humbalis as my brothers in faith. We have serious differences of opinion but we all are followers of Muhammad e Arbi (P.B.U.H), this fact make us one nation, one body and one soul.

I believe the same, but there are problems with all those who reject the authentic tradition of the Prophet Muhammad saws. They are more likely to be swayed by individuals who intentionally misguide them.

Usually this comes out as sectarianism, extreme takfiri mindset, superiority complex, and rejection of traditional identity.

The idea of a Qawm (people) is one of the most basic levels of organization of human beings after family, tribe, and ethnic/linguistic group.

Pakistan is one such identity, it is one of he building blocks for other more inclusive ideologies like Ummat.

 

[Agito]

Maybe this is why Islam is against nationalism

Yes, this is exactly what I'm saying. Religion can never suppress tribalism, we've already tried. In fact, it has reached a point where religion is a cover for nationalism. There is no pure "non-tribalistic" feelings.

 

[Yankee-stani]

Yes, this is exactly what I'm saying. Religion can never suppress tribalism, we've already tried. In fact, it has reached a point where religion is a cover for nationalism. There is no pure "non-tribalistic" feelings.

Are you of Pakistani origin and in the post you made a couple days ago I agree on one small point you made about Pakistanis that I rant about all the time in recent years since the push of Turkish PR on Pakistani airwaves and that watermellon seller Erdogan speech about Israel and about Turkish power has gotten Pakistanis hooked on Turkish propaganda whereas in the 90s, 80s it was about the Arabs and the Palestinian cause now its about supporting Turkey everywhere even if its policies are against Muslims of Kurdish and Arab origin Pakistanis must form a coherent idea of who they are as a people rather than larping as Arabs,Turks or a section of Shia in Pakistan who harp on being Persians

 

[B.K.N]

Are you of Pakistani origin and in the post you made a couple days ago I agree on one small point you made about Pakistanis that I rant about all the time in recent years since the push of Turkish PR on Pakistani airwaves and that watermellon seller Erdogan speech about Israel and about Turkish power has gotten Pakistanis hooked on Turkish propaganda whereas in the 90s, 80s it was about the Arabs and the Palestinian cause now its about supporting Turkey everywhere even if its policies are against Muslims of Kurdish and Arab origin Pakistanis must form a coherent idea of who they are as a people rather than larping as Arabs,Turks or a section of Shia in Pakistan who harp on being Persians

PDF Pakistanis are supporting Turkey because Turkey supported Pakistan on Kashmir and for some reason most of the internet Pakistanis don't like Kurds
I have watched few episodes of translated Turkish dramas those are better than Pakistani dramas but are boring
I don't think Turkish dramas are very popular in Pakistan

 

[Yankee-stani]

PDF Pakistanis are supporting Turkey because Turkey supported Pakistan on Kashmir and for some reason most of the internet Pakistanis don't like Kurds
I have watched few episodes of translated Turkish dramas those are better than Pakistani dramas but are boring
I don't think Turkish dramas are very popular in Pakistan

I dont like that the Kurds are destablizing the region its good they were working with Assad now and btw I dont support the Turkish invasion 100 percent as I see it could lead to further instabilty and Erdogan is a hot head tbh cmon you and I may not like those Stupid Turkish dramas but most Pakistanis love em and its Turkish softppower

 

[B.K.N]

I dont like that the Kurds are destablizing the region its good they were working with Assad now and btw I dont support the Turkish invasion 100 percent as I see it could lead to further instabilty and Erdogan is a hot head tbh cmon you and I may not like those Stupid Turkish dramas but most Pakistanis love em and its Turkish softppower

No it's not Turkish soft power audience of these dramas don't take interest in such things
And it's propaganda Turkish dramas aren't very popular in Pakistan

 

[Yankee-stani]

No it's not Turkish soft power audience of these dramas don't take interest in such things
And it's propaganda Turkish dramas aren't very popular in Pakistan

I remember in the 2000s no one in Pakistan gave a r...ts a...s about Turkey but come 2010 that all changed tbh

 

[B.K.N]

I remember in the 2000s no one in Pakistan gave a r...ts a...s about Turkey but come 2010 that all changed tbh

Some PDF members are in love with Turkey but nothing has changed on ground
Nowadays they don't talk about pak cheen dosti
One of the reason of Turkish dramas popularity in Pakistan is Indian channels are banned since 2013 or 14 and Turkish dramas are a substitute

 

[Yankee-stani]

Some PDF members are in love with Turkey but nothing has changed on ground
Nowadays they don't talk about pak cheen dosti
One of the reason of Turkish dramas popularity in Pakistan is Indian channels are banned since 2013 or 14 and Turkish dramas are a substitute

To be honest let foreign policy decided by GHQ and not by the idiots on PDF or the dumb politicians yes but before the 2013 bans it was getting more popular in the late 2000s early 2010s