Pak Navy shows interest in Umkhonto (Surface-to-air Missile System)

[_NOBODY_]

Good ..so what's the problem with naval version of Babur? why don't we develop it into one ... it needs some modifications but that's it. It has good range, payload too.

We are developing submarine launched variant of Babur.

 

[Maj.Osmani]

Good ..so what's the problem with naval version of Babur? why don't we develop it into one ... it needs some modifications but that's it. It has good range, payload too.

Listen there are lot of things military / armed forces planners knows which civilian can't understand. Every measure will meet counter and sometimes they don't want any aggressive counter measure by the enemy which we can't counter or the geopolitical situation is not suitable.

We are developing submarine launched variant of Babur.

Or may be already developed.

 

[war&peace]

We are developing submarine launched variant of Babur.

Yes and that's even more complex than the surface launched cruise missile.. However the major difference is in the speed , Babur is essentially a subsonic cruise missile and Umkhonto is supersonic at Mach 2.0 (just for perspective JF 17 1.8, F16 1.8, Mirage 2.0) . I think on sea, subsonic not a good idea, because there are not so many things to hide behind on the sea surfaces so a subsonic cruise missile will become visible too soon and can easily be targeted especially when airborne EWACs systems are operating and there are rapid fire guns that can be used to target even with naked eyes. We can go for YJ-18 like solution with a short sprint of 100 km at Mach 3 to 3.5. The best way is to combine a scramjet with a solid booster ....that needs some R&D but we have the capability to develop it.
One fix could be to modify Nasr with an extended range of upto 120 km with 50 kg warhead

 

[war&peace]

Umkhonto is a medium-range air-defense missile, not a land-attack cruise missile:

ESSM:

And DK-10:

Are similar missiles within this class. Umkhonto and similar missiles would be used to shoot-down Babur or Nirbhay.

Thanks for the info. At Mach 2.0 it will be able to intercept the subsonic Babur or Nirbay but it won't sufficient against the high speed cruise missile like Brahmos, Yakhont or YJ-18.

 

[MastanKhan]

No issues, here we discuss and share our knowledge.


I am not clear on JF-17 could carry 2 CM400AKG on wing stations. Kindly share if you have more info. As per my best knowledge CM400AKG still not test fire even in China from JF-17.

Hi,

I was talking about a heavy strike aircraft---like a JH7B.

 

[Indus Falcon]

Sure. For a frigate, it is better to combine with CIWS, or use radar seeker guided missile. So is Umkhonto-like Sam useful? sure! But is it effective? No, at at least compared to common used radar seeker guided one.

@Khafee Bro can you shed some light on Missiles with IR guidance VS Radar guided?

Thanks!

Storm shadow is even better if Pakistan can get it

Sir, Umkhonto is a SAM, and Storm Shadow / Scalp is a medium range cruise missile.

Storm Shadow is air to surface cruise missile just like Ra'ad but we need surface to air missile for our surface ships.

Right, but SCALP Naval can be launched from VLS
http://www.mbda-systems.com/maritime-superiority/ncm/

No issues, here we discuss and share our knowledge.


I am not clear on JF-17 could carry 2 CM400AKG on wing stations. Kindly share if you have more info. As per my best knowledge CM400AKG still not test fire even in China from JF-17.

Sir, you are right 2 CM400AKG can be carried by the JF-17.

It has been successfully integrated, all the testing and integration was done in China.

Good ..so what's the problem with naval version of Babur? why don't we develop it into one ... it needs some modifications but that's it. It has good range, payload too.

The Naval version of Babur, that has been inducted, can only be sub launched. Work on other verisons is in progress.

 

[MastanKhan]

@Khafee Bro can you shed some light on Missiles with IR guidance VS Radar guided?

Thanks!



Sir, Umkhonto is a SAM, and Storm Shadow / Scalp is a medium range cruise missile.



Right, but SCALP Naval can be launched from VLS
http://www.mbda-systems.com/maritime-superiority/ncm/



Sir, you are right 2 CM400AKG can be carried by the JF-17.

It has been successfully integrated, all the testing and integration was done in China.


The Naval version of Babur, that has been inducted, can only be sub launched. Work on other verisons is in progress.

Hi,

I would like to see the air launched version of Babur in operation.

 

[Immortan.Joe]

Thanks for the info. At Mach 2.0 it will be able to intercept the subsonic Babur or Nirbay but it won't sufficient against the high speed cruise missile like Brahmos, Yakhont or YJ-18.

Most (if not all) interceptions are head on. It is not the interception speed of an interceptor (as it would not be chasing a missile) that matters, but its maneuverability of which lateral acceleration is best indicator.

Umkhonto would not be able to intercept Brahmos because apart from being fast, Brahmos is highly maneuverable too, and Umkhonto is frankly an outdated system.

 

[Quwa]

For AShM one needs a top quality PDMS, such as the RAM. If not that, then FL-3000.

 

[_NOBODY_]

Yes and that's even more complex than the surface launched cruise missile.. However the major difference is in the speed , Babur is essentially a subsonic cruise missile and Umkhonto is supersonic at Mach 2.0 (just for perspective JF 17 1.8, F16 1.8, Mirage 2.0) . I think on sea, subsonic not a good idea, because there are not so many things to hide behind on the sea surfaces so a subsonic cruise missile will become visible too soon and can easily be targeted especially when airborne EWACs systems are operating and there are rapid fire guns that can be used to target even with naked eyes. We can go for YJ-18 like solution with a short sprint of 100 km at Mach 3 to 3.5. The best way is to combine a scramjet with a solid booster ....that needs some R&D but we have the capability to develop it.
One fix could be to modify Nasr with an extended range of upto 120 km with 50 kg warhead

Subsonic cruise missiles are meant for very specific target and Supersonic/Hypersonic cruise missiles are meant to destroy a large area or aircraft carriers. Subsonic cruise missiles have stealth and they have the capability to dodge SAMs. We would never use Babur to destroy cities but to destroy enemy's posts, frigates or some other very specific targets. However we do require supersonic/hypersonic cruise missiles but remember that both have different purposes and none of them is superior to each other. This thread is about Umkhonto not Nasr.

Hi,

I would like to see the air launched version of Babur in operation.

Sir for that we need H-6.

 

[Zarvan]

China is slow in developing smaller VLS surface to air missile for ship. There's a reason why PN is looking for other sources.

But reality speaking, this missile system spec is not very impressive, the most can matched Barak II system. As a ship air protection system is adequate but not good enough for fleet defence.

What about that High Performance Frigate which small scale model was displayed at some weapons expo in China

 

[Beast]

What about that High Performance Frigate which small scale model was displayed at some weapons expo in China

It maybe a collaboration with Russia or other state like Israel,France. So far its just a model, nothing concrete.

 

[Zarvan]

It maybe a collaboration with Russia or other state like Israel,France. So far its just a model, nothing concrete.

Well I hope Russia or France not Israel. Pakistan needs this kind of Frigate which has VLS and not only those VLS can fire Air Defence Missiles but also cruise Missiles.

 

[Maj.Osmani]

Hi,

I would like to see the air launched version of Babur in operation.

I believe Ra'ad serves the purpose.

 

[war&peace]

Hi,

I would like to see the air launched version of Babur in operation.

Air launch version of Babur was never on the cards when the two organisations were awarded cruise missile development so AERO will make air launched cruise missile while NDC will make surface launched that will be further developed in naval and sub launched versions. However Ra'ad's range with a better engine can be increased to 700 km and a higher Mach...that will be Ra'ad II

@Khafee Bro can you shed some light on Missiles with IR guidance VS Radar guided?

Thanks!



Sir, Umkhonto is a SAM, and Storm Shadow / Scalp is a medium range cruise missile.



Right, but SCALP Naval can be launched from VLS
http://www.mbda-systems.com/maritime-superiority/ncm/



Sir, you are right 2 CM400AKG can be carried by the JF-17.

It has been successfully integrated, all the testing and integration was done in China.


The Naval version of Babur, that has been inducted, can only be sub launched. Work on other verisons is in progress.

Thank you sir, I already realised my mistake....it is a bit shame