Pak Navy chief meets UK counterpart, defence minister

[Ankit Kumar]

Don't always believe what you read.



Buying a ship involves alot of elements:
Equipment, spares & logistics, trainings, nomenclature of parts, etc.
PN has never operated German vessels, so buying an old platform would not be feasible to induct.

However, if PN goes for a new German vessel, which is to serve for at least 20+ years, then it would be a good option.



Nothing fancy in a uniform.

Yes, a lot of time and resource is needed for sure, but going for German or Italian systems will allow Pakistan Navy to still have a sanction proof system at place than going for a US or UK system.
Yes cost also plays a role, but some South American , African and South East Asian Nations are trying to procure a modern light weight multi purpose stealth frigates, ( the Phillipeans project is around 400 million dollars ), and a number of shipyards from Spain, Italy and Germany are going for them. Even South Korea has entered the market.
A modern CODOD stealth vessel , with around 24 VLS , CIWS, Torpedos, naval guns, mulipurpose radars etc all packed up in 400 million dollars. This is a real resonable price if PN is looking for western Systems, else the Chinese are always there.

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

Yes, a lot of time and resource is needed for sure, but going for German or Italian systems will allow Pakistan Navy to still have a sanction proof system at place than going for a US or UK system.
Yes cost also plays a role, but some South American , African and South East Asian Nations are trying to procure a modern light weight multi purpose stealth frigates, ( the Phillipeans project is around 400 million dollars ), and a number of shipyards from Spain, Italy and Germany are going for them. Even South Korea has entered the market.
A modern CODOD stealth vessel , with around 24 VLS , CIWS, Torpedos, naval guns, mulipurpose radars etc all packed up in 400 million dollars. This is a real resonable price if PN is looking for western Systems, else the Chinese are always there.

This is what I meant, that if we go for a new multipurpose frigate, which also involves other partners, it would be more feasible for PN.

 

[CHI RULES]

I as a layman feel that if so far Navy has limited budget then rational approach shall be to upgrade our existing fleet especially our one and only OHP with some long range SAM may be chinese like HQ9, similarly F22P existing frigates with HQ16 and some new PESA naval radars of Chinese origin. Further F21 frigates and Augosta 70 subs should be upgraded as far as possible just like Iran did with their ancient fleet, which is though old yet may cause max damage to an aggressor. The main life of Iranian Navy are their above one hundred FAS catramen styled crafts.

The comments of pros highly appreciated.

 

[Tank131]

Well there are other options beyond type 23s and type 054a. With little ingenuity there could be a vls in place of they fm90s of theF22p. That being said, fm90 could be replaced by the c-802 boxes and there could be a vls installed between the conning tower and smokestacks, mostly to purely avove deck so as not to mess with the below deck functionality. Withthe chinese mixed cold/hot launch vls there would be only a little ductwork necessary for exhaust. Then give it electronic upgrades and a decent air defense missile (hq-16 (40km) or possibly better yet a quad packed dk-10 (50km based on sd-10)). If those are too large you could try for a quadpacked FM-3000 (30km) based system which would give 32 missiles also and you have a modern multirole frigate lightyears better than you currently have.

Then you have the Adelaide (OHP) frigates in Australia. One was just retired (HMAS Sydney) and three otherd in active service, all of which are to be retired by 2020 when the Hobart class comes online (Hobart in 2017, brisbane in 2018 and new Sydney in 2020). All 4 of these Adelaide have mk41 launchers and their Mk13 arms for SM2MR Blk III. These could be acquired if PN acted quickly (before sydney is scuttled like the other 2 adelaides that were previously retired) and that would give PN 5 of the 6 OHP which they originally wanted (already having alamgir in possession). Hell, the Australian would likely give them at a reasonable rate as they would otherwise be scuttled. Alamgir could also get a mk41 launcher same as the Adelaides and the G-Class of turkey have (or an 8-cell Sylver A50 if US is resistant to giving it) and all could then be put through the GENESIS upgrade from Turkey. If US Sells SM2MR Blk3 and ESSM for these OHP, then great, get them. If not, scrap the mk13s and get CAMM for the vls (designed to be quad packed into A50 and Mk41). That would give them 32 medium range SAMs. (essm would be preferable to camm given the 25km improvement in rangeunless CAMM-ER (50km) is available and can be quadpacked).

 

[Atlanticore]

Money is the Main issue or we would see this in PN

Let's suppose if I lend some money to PN then will UK aprove this request? We had money for Oliver Hazard Perry-class Frigates but only one was provided by US. Rest of them were sold to Turkey and Egypt.

 

[Inception-06]

For those who think type 23 is not good i will tell you that it is better than anything PN has or is liable to get. It seems unlikely that PN will go for type 054A anytime soon. These frigates are equipped with some of the best antisub warfare capabilities for a ship its size. Additionally they have a 32 cell vls, originally for sea wolf SAMs, which are now being fitted with quad-packed CAMM (25km range). This means that each type 23 can carry 128 SAMs. Now im not sure if they could also be fitted with CAMM-ER (45km) which would vive them a nice mix of medium and low-medium range capability depending on the loadout.

Additionally they carry 8 Harpoons.

But, as the type 26 gcs is not even in construction yet (supposed to start this year) i doubt these will be available for many years.[/QUOT

You pointed out it very well, we could upgrade the Type- 23 to our needs !

 

[rockstar08]

Well there are other options beyond type 23s and type 054a. With little ingenuity there could be a vls in place of they fm90s of theF22p. That being said, fm90 could be replaced by the c-802 boxes and there could be a vls installed between the conning tower and smokestacks, mostly to purely avove deck so as not to mess with the below deck functionality. Withthe chinese mixed cold/hot launch vls there would be only a little ductwork necessary for exhaust. Then give it electronic upgrades and a decent air defense missile (hq-16 (40km) or possibly better yet a quad packed dk-10 (50km based on sd-10)). If those are too large you could try for a quadpacked FM-3000 (30km) based system which would give 32 missiles also and you have a modern multirole frigate lightyears better than you currently have.

Then you have the Adelaide (OHP) frigates in Australia. One was just retired (HMAS Sydney) and three otherd in active service, all of which are to be retired by 2020 when the Hobart class comes online (Hobart in 2017, brisbane in 2018 and new Sydney in 2020). All 4 of these Adelaide have mk41 launchers and their Mk13 arms for SM2MR Blk III. These could be acquired if PN acted quickly (before sydney is scuttled like the other 2 adelaides that were previously retired) and that would give PN 5 of the 6 OHP which they originally wanted (already having alamgir in possession). Hell, the Australian would likely give them at a reasonable rate as they would otherwise be scuttled. Alamgir could also get a mk41 launcher same as the Adelaides and the G-Class of turkey have (or an 8-cell Sylver A50 if US is resistant to giving it) and all could then be put through the GENESIS upgrade from Turkey. If US Sells SM2MR Blk3 and ESSM for these OHP, then great, get them. If not, scrap the mk13s and get CAMM for the vls (designed to be quad packed into A50 and Mk41). That would give them 32 medium range SAMs. (essm would be preferable to camm given the 25km improvement in rangeunless CAMM-ER (50km) is available and can be quadpacked).

So many If's in one post .. but the reality we all know ..

 

[Tank131]

So many If's in one post .. but the reality we all know ..

No doubt, but the point was laying out various possiblities out there that are cost effective and would require less investment than the type 054A which i have heard almost no info about other than fanboy speculation with regards to PN acquiring it.

But as u said, nothing is likely to happen.

 

[Inception-06]

I as a layman feel that if so far Navy has limited budget then rational approach shall be to upgrade our existing fleet especially our one and only OHP with some long range SAM may be chinese like HQ9, similarly F22P existing frigates with HQ16 and some new PESA naval radars of Chinese origin. Further F21 frigates and Augosta 70 subs should be upgraded as far as possible just like Iran did with their ancient fleet, which is though old yet may cause max damage to an aggressor. The main life of Iranian Navy are their above one hundred FAS catramen styled crafts.

The comments of pros highly appreciated.

I thought the same, what the Type-21 frigates and Agostas need is a complet body and turbine-machine overhall, this cost compared to the price of new chinese ships and subs might be very high, otherwise we would not have decommsioned a Type-21 frigate.

 

[Muhammad Omar]

Let's suppose if I lend some money to PN then will UK aprove this request? We had money for Oliver Hazard Perry-class Frigates but only one was provided by US. Rest of them were sold to Turkey and Egypt.

Well UK PM offered these to PN 2 3 years ago

 

[alimobin memon]

Well there are other options beyond type 23s and type 054a. With little ingenuity there could be a vls in place of they fm90s of theF22p. That being said, fm90 could be replaced by the c-802 boxes and there could be a vls installed between the conning tower and smokestacks, mostly to purely avove deck so as not to mess with the below deck functionality. Withthe chinese mixed cold/hot launch vls there would be only a little ductwork necessary for exhaust. Then give it electronic upgrades and a decent air defense missile (hq-16 (40km) or possibly better yet a quad packed dk-10 (50km based on sd-10)). If those are too large you could try for a quadpacked FM-3000 (30km) based system which would give 32 missiles also and you have a modern multirole frigate lightyears better than you currently have.

Then you have the Adelaide (OHP) frigates in Australia. One was just retired (HMAS Sydney) and three otherd in active service, all of which are to be retired by 2020 when the Hobart class comes online (Hobart in 2017, brisbane in 2018 and new Sydney in 2020). All 4 of these Adelaide have mk41 launchers and their Mk13 arms for SM2MR Blk III. These could be acquired if PN acted quickly (before sydney is scuttled like the other 2 adelaides that were previously retired) and that would give PN 5 of the 6 OHP which they originally wanted (already having alamgir in possession). Hell, the Australian would likely give them at a reasonable rate as they would otherwise be scuttled. Alamgir could also get a mk41 launcher same as the Adelaides and the G-Class of turkey have (or an 8-cell Sylver A50 if US is resistant to giving it) and all could then be put through the GENESIS upgrade from Turkey. If US Sells SM2MR Blk3 and ESSM for these OHP, then great, get them. If not, scrap the mk13s and get CAMM for the vls (designed to be quad packed into A50 and Mk41). That would give them 32 medium range SAMs. (essm would be preferable to camm given the 25km improvement in rangeunless CAMM-ER (50km) is available and can be quadpacked).

i have said it multiple times the FM90 takes enough place to accomodate a vls instead of it.

 

[Atlanticore]

Well UK PM offered these to PN 2 3 years ago

Oh I See. Thank you

 

[rockstar08]

No doubt, but the point was laying out various possiblities out there that are cost effective and would require less investment than the type 054A which i have heard almost no info about other than fanboy speculation with regards to PN acquiring it.

But as u said, nothing is likely to happen.

OHP's as you mentioned are useless for PN .. after US will strip it down .. plus with strings attached , do this do that than they will release or give NOC for these floating junk metal ..
i'd rather go for more F-22p Upgraded one's or Type 54A's than buying Type-23 or OHP ..
at least those new F-22 or 54A will be new and have a life in them ..

 

[Tank131]

I dont disagree with prefering to buy new... But the US will strip nothing from the Adelaides because the US doesnt own them. These are Australian ships. Beyond that, we have already seen PNs ingenuity by making alamgir a relatively capable ship in anti-ship operations by installing its old harpoon launchers. Similarly with type 21s they installed ly-60 SAMs. When the mk41 is there already and turkey can do the electronic upgrades and you have harpoons already, why not go for them? What strings are going to be attached by Australia? With respect, the PN is frankly in a state where it can't really wait for 8 new build surface ships (and it needs 8 more surface ships in order to even have half a chance defending itself from IN). 5 GENESIS class OHP (even without SM2) would go a look long way to improving the PN. Even if ESSM isnt approved, PN could fit CAMM on it as it too is designed to fit quad packed into mk41 which the Adelaides already have. If the alamgir is unable due to politics to get mk41, you can always gdt sylver a50 for it with the exact same effect as mk41. And regarding type 23. Nothing PN fields except maybe type 054a will be superior to it. It has strong anti-sub, anti-ship, and anti-air capabilities (32 sea-wolf missiles being replaced by 128 CAMM). Additionally, PN never had difficulty operating type 21s so the sentiment held by you about US doesnt necessarily hold for the UK.

Realistically, PN doesnt have the money for 8 new built surface ships after a large submarine order (8). They could use 4 used ships that are still very highly capable like Adelaides upgraded to GENESIS class or type 23 and it would cost them probably the price of 1-1.5 new build type 054a.

 

[CHI RULES]

OHP's as you mentioned are useless for PN .. after US will strip it down .. plus with strings attached , do this do that than they will release or give NOC for these floating junk metal ..
i'd rather go for more F-22p Upgraded one's or Type 54A's than buying Type-23 or OHP ..
at least those new F-22 or 54A will be new and have a life in them ..

Also shall have some stealth features

I dont disagree with prefering to buy new... But the US will strip nothing from the Adelaides because the US doesnt own them. These are Australian ships. Beyond that, we have already seen PNs ingenuity by making alamgir a relatively capable ship in anti-ship operations by installing its old harpoon launchers. Similarly with type 21s they installed ly-60 SAMs. When the mk41 is there already and turkey can do the electronic upgrades and you have harpoons already, why not go for them? What strings are going to be attached by Australia? With respect, the PN is frankly in a state where it can't really wait for 8 new build surface ships (and it needs 8 more surface ships in order to even have half a chance defending itself from IN). 5 GENESIS class OHP (even without SM2) would go a look long way to improving the PN. Even if ESSM isnt approved, PN could fit CAMM on it as it too is designed to fit quad packed into mk41 which the Adelaides already have. If the alamgir is unable due to politics to get mk41, you can always gdt sylver a50 for it with the exact same effect as mk41. And regarding type 23. Nothing PN fields except maybe type 054a will be superior to it. It has strong anti-sub, anti-ship, and anti-air capabilities (32 sea-wolf missiles being replaced by 128 CAMM). Additionally, PN never had difficulty operating type 21s so the sentiment held by you about US doesnt necessarily hold for the UK.

Realistically, PN doesnt have the money for 8 new built surface ships after a large submarine order (8). They could use 4 used ships that are still very highly capable like Adelaides upgraded to GENESIS class or type 23 and it would cost them probably the price of 1-1.5 new build type 054a.

The Radars on F22P and Type 21 being operated by PN have limited capabilities espwcially against stealthy targets they are merely useless however UK Type 23s have capable radars with range of 200KM may be integrated with other sensors for anti stealth roles.