Pak may never try another Kargil, but it could get worse

[bronxbull]

Rafi,how do u manage to outdo yourself everytime and r u so jobless? and how come as a jatt,u r not farming at all?

 

[dearone4u_22]

Musharraf exposing bharti propaganda.

LOlllllll he trying to save his A$$ .....what do you expect ...he will admit kargil was a mistake on national television

this is kargil truth

 

[Rafi]

Rafi,how do u manage to outdo yourself everytime and r u so jobless? and how come as a jatt,u r not farming at all?

Well our farm has plenty of workers to take care of business, but our profession is to keep watch on the eternal enemy.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Ah good sir, solutions are only required if there are problems and the current structure of Pakistani politics is extremely comfortable for those in charge. Feudals and Generals alike would have the status quo continue for many more years.
While I understand your sentiment, do also think about the Pakistanis that have died due to these misadventures. For every Indian or Afghani or even American, far more Pakistanis have given their lives simply because someone in Islamabad decided he will make a name for himself. The cause of those in power is only strengthened when Pakistani soldiers die, because what no nation will do is to abandon its soldiers; the common public invariably falls behind the Generals and the whole ordeal turns into a self fulfilling prophecy. As I said before, a war just has to be started and everything falls into place.

If there is going to be a change, it would require either the elimination of external threats (unlikely) or continuous failure and exposure of the PA in protecting its citizen (painstakingly slow). In the end, the fear is: Pakistan may over play it's hand one too many times in global politics and give the USA or India the convenient excuse to take matters into their own hands. Guess who'll make up the bulk of the dead in that situation? As usual, the Pakistanis of course.

I say this not to undermine the loss of Indians, but to point out that we are all sufferers in this grand chess game that the Pakistani elite are playing and none are more desperate than Pakistanis, who seem to die for no cause at all. They don't even have the benefit of their government exacting revenge on those responsible as the Indians and Americans often promise; since those responsible for these crimes are the very people that lead them.

I say this with sincerity, from the heart: I regret the deaths of Pakistani soldiers, and those loyal Pakistani officers who were doing their duty and serving their country, just one measure less than I regret the death of our own soldiers, sailors and airmen. Please be sure that any disparaging remarks made by me in previous comments were intended for the special attention of one of the most disliked jingoes on the forum. No insult or disparagement of any serviceman was intended.

It is certain that I speak for the vast bulk of my countrymen. AJTR has a rocky integrity which sets her apart, and nobody needs to apologize on her behalf, but the rest of us were provoked into anger and saying unseemly things. Even dear Cap'n Popeye took up the cudgels, so you can judge for yourself how strong the dislike was.

Sincere good wishes.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

I think these African kids would prove to be a better warriors than Pakistani Army.

The point is kids should be kept away from guns, especially ones that are loaded or have live ammo.

 

[dearone4u_22]

Well our farm has plenty of workers to take care of business, but our profession is to keep watch on the eternal enemy.

Lolllllll we have a internet Rambo here

 

[RazPaK]

I say this with sincerity, from the heart: I regret the deaths of Pakistani soldiers, and those loyal Pakistani officers who were doing their duty and serving their country, just one measure less than I regret the death of our own soldiers, sailors and airmen. Please be sure that any disparaging remarks made by me in previous comments were intended for the special attention of one of the most disliked jingoes on the forum. No insult or disparagement of any serviceman was intended.

It is certain that I speak for the vast bulk of my countrymen. AJTR has a rocky integrity which sets her apart, and nobody needs to apologize on her behalf, but the rest of us were provoked into anger and saying unseemly things. Even dear Cap'n Popeye took up the cudgels, so you can judge for yourself how strong the dislike was.

Sincere good wishes.

I have tried to avoid this thread but why don't you go over the remarks made by your countrymen?

Seriously take a look.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Ah good sir, solutions are only required if there are problems and the current structure of Pakistani politics is extremely comfortable for those in charge. Feudals and Generals alike would have the status quo continue for many more years.
While I understand your sentiment, do also think about the Pakistanis that have died due to these misadventures. For every Indian or Afghani or even American, far more Pakistanis have given their lives simply because someone in Islamabad decided he will make a name for himself. The cause of those in power is only strengthened when Pakistani soldiers die, because what no nation will do is to abandon its soldiers; the common public invariably falls behind the Generals and the whole ordeal turns into a self fulfilling prophecy. As I said before, a war just has to be started and everything falls into place.

If there is going to be a change, it would require either the elimination of external threats (unlikely) or continuous failure and exposure of the PA in protecting its citizen (painstakingly slow). In the end, the fear is: Pakistan may over play it's hand one too many times in global politics and give the USA or India the convenient excuse to take matters into their own hands. Guess who'll make up the bulk of the dead in that situation? As usual, the Pakistanis of course.

I say this not to undermine the loss of Indians, but to point out that we are all sufferers in this grand chess game that the Pakistani elite are playing and none are more desperate than Pakistanis, who seem to die for no cause at all. They don't even have the benefit of their government exacting revenge on those responsible as the Indians and Americans often promise; since those responsible for these crimes are the very people that lead them.

Admirably put. And no Sir, I am not applauding any criticism (explicit or implicit) of Pakistan in your post.

Some ground realities need to be reaffirmed. Pakistan exists. Pakistan has a right to live in Peace and Prosperity. Just as my country of origin, India does. Notwithstanding the rivalry/enmity or whatever that exists between them.

Taking it further from what you have written, what has bedevilled Pakistan is the fact that individuals in that country have repeatedly subordinated their country's interests to their own; to the extent that Mr. Jinnah's dream for his contry has been completely forgotten just as his memory in the scheme of things in Pakistan is simply a picture of a patrician gentleman enclosed in a gilt frame hanging on various walls in his country. The Quaid would grieve deeply to see the direction that his beloved creation has taken over the years. Was this the 'moth-eaten Pakistan' that he worried about?

Mr. Jinnah apart from being the brilliant and far seeing mind that he was; was first and foremost a Politician who believed unreservedly in Democracy. He never wore a Khaki Uniform in his life unto his dying day. So why did his people turn their backs on Democracy? Why did they never make any sincere and sustained efforts to sustain the political system? When did they get so enamored of Uniforms, Dandas and Jack-Boots? And ungrudgingly accept subservience to all this? Were'nt these the very things that Mr. Jinnah fought against to create his own country? If he were alive today, would he have happily and willingly accepted coming under the rule of this all over again?

Its time for the Awaam of Pakistan where their destiny lies and how to head in that direction. Or accept being in the status of a 'has-been state'. Mr. Jinnah's fears of a 'moth-eaten' Pakistan can scarcely be allowed to be realised.

 

[bronxbull]

Well our farm has plenty of workers to take care of business, but our profession is to keep watch on the eternal enemy.

still,in indian punjab jatts are farming all the time.

I have tried to avoid this thread but why don't you go over the remarks made by your countrymen?

Seriously take a look.

Does this deja vu happen in every thread where u post?

 

[RazPaK]

Out of 60 pages I have posted how many times?

I remember saying somewhere around 30 that the topic has been discussed already. How many kargil threads are on this forum?


I then continue reading comments from indians trollers about getting f---ed and other crap for pages on end.

Apparently "Professional" members are allowed to troll with their countrymen, while we are supposed to sit back and keep reading this garbage.

 

[Fazlu]

Well our farm has plenty of workers to take care of business, but our profession is to keep watch on the eternal enemy.

So basically you're unemployed and live off your inheritance.

If you get points for staring into open space for "enemies"--then good for you friend.

 

[Pfpilot]

Admirably put. And no Sir, I am not applauding any criticism (explicit or implicit) of Pakistan in your post.

Some ground realities need to be reaffirmed. Pakistan exists. Pakistan has a right to live in Peace and Prosperity. Just as my country of origin, India does. Notwithstanding the rivalry/enmity or whatever that exists between them.

Taking it further from what you have written, what has bedevilled Pakistan is the fact that individuals in that country have repeatedly subordinated their country's interests to their own; to the extent that Mr. Jinnah's dream for his contry has been completely forgotten just as his memory in the scheme of things in Pakistan is simply a picture of a patrician gentleman enclosed in a gilt frame hanging on various walls in his country. The Quaid would grieve deeply to see the direction that his beloved creation has taken over the years. Was this the 'moth-eaten Pakistan' that he worried about?

Mr. Jinnah apart from being the brilliant and far seeing mind that he was; was first and foremost a Politician who believed unreservedly in Democracy. He never wore a Khaki Uniform in his life unto his dying day. So why did his people turn their backs on Democracy? Why did they never make any sincere and sustained efforts to sustain the political system? When did they get so enamored of Uniforms, Dandas and Jack-Boots? And ungrudgingly accept subservience to all this? Were'nt these the very things that Mr. Jinnah fought against to create his own country? If he were alive today, would he have happily and willingly accepted coming under the rule of this all over again?

Its time for the Awaam of Pakistan where their destiny lies and how to head in that direction. Or accept being in the status of a 'has-been state'. Mr. Jinnah's fears of a 'moth-eaten' Pakistan can scarcely be allowed to be realised.

If I may be so bold, I think many Pakistanis are scared (me at the forefront) of being part of a forceful change. It is one thing to criticize the army, but to rise up and break the shackles...we will have to face off against an all powerful entity that has, in the past, suppressed more localized movements with a great amount of violence. Obviously, to Indians, the whole East Pakistan fiasco is far better understood and relatable...but that crackdown has been replicated on smaller scales since.

When we talk about the Pakistani Awam, we speak of every Pakistani; of myself and my family, and suddenly everyone becomes very selfish. Maybe the problem is, despite all the suffering, we have not suffered quite enough to risk our lives (or are simply too selfish). Would I be willing to die this very moment for a better Pakistan? That is a huge question to ask and one very few people would be equal to...a major reason why soldiers in every country do deserve such great respect; not everyone can so easily give their lives for the love of a nation.

Another problem, that may not have been part of the dynamic or atleast in the public conscious till a decade ago is the form Pakistan's masses are taking. What if the the masses rise up against corruption and end up saddling us with an Iranian like religious state? Many of the urban middle class are increasingly out of touch with the Islamization of the country...they would be deeply uncomfortable with a populous movement based on the extremist wing that has flourished. To put it crudely, even a wayward Pakistan going nowhere is better to many than a nation of Wahhabis.

It seems then, that Pakistan is stuck between an all powerful military, an increasingly extremist populous and the fear and selfishness of people who have the ability to exact change.

 

[Younis]

TIGER HILL point 5353 is in pakistan controll higest peak in the region
who have clear view on national highway 1.D

 

[Mercenary]

I am sorry to contradict you, but the Arguments demand it.

In 1948, you captured 1/3 of the state by mounting an attack on unsuspecting State troops, barely fit to bear arms. When the Indian Army came in, those same all-conquering heroes charged back fairly fast. You also omit to mention that you could have captured the whole state if your heroes had not stopped to rape, loot and murder. But those don't fall into the list of major victories, presumably, only the minor list.

In 1965, again, it was an unprovoked attack on a peaceful country, the second within months. Considering the amount of effort you spent, using large numbers of SSG commandos dressed up as native militants (rather familiar - it was the same story in Kargil, with NLI instead of SSG), a full-scale armoured attack frustrated only by the imbecile behaviour of your own high command, it is curious that you consider this a stalemate. None of your war objectives were met, not the military ones, anyway. Bhutto got what he wanted, the removal of one more obstacle to the throne, but the military didn't. Our objective was to throw the invaders out. We met ours. An armed mugger attacks a peaceful citizen, the peaceful citizen fights him off successfully, and you report it as a draw?

In 1971, it was a defeat. There are many instances in history of defeats. So what? Defeat is defeat. Nobody asked you to stick an army into a tight corner and simultaneously provoke a war.

In 1999, it was another failed felony, armed burglary this time, rather than a mugging. How does a failed felony entitle you to aggrandize yourselves? Or to claim military distinction, or credit?

Lastly, were you disguised as LTTE in 1987? if not, what was the point you wanted to make?

I disagree.

In 1948, we did not have an established military and even then our commander was a British Officer who refused to sanction a military attack on India which was staffed and commanded by British Officers. So we had no choice but to use rag tag militia in order to prevent India from annexing Kashmir like they had done with Hyderabad. So the fact that Indian Army fought the militia but were unable to throw them out completely and we retained 1/3 of Kashmir is not a defeat in my eyes. True we could have captured all of Kashmir but those militias were undisciplined and thus could not make battlefield decisions.

In 1965, I don't care what was the genesis of the war but rather the outcome. A Stalemate is when neither side's objectives are totally met. Didn't you guys wanted to drink Tea in Lahore and attack deep into Pakistan. And your analogy is ridiculous.

What the analogy should be is: A person A tries to take back a piece of property which was rightfully his from person B. Person B fights back and then tries to steal more from the Person A but Person A holds off Person B.

Kargil was a brilliant attack which shocked India after you and that right wing government detonated nuclear weapons. It showed India, even with nukes, we can inflict heavy losses on India and inflict a tactical defeat on India. If the operation had been better planned such as tunnel system to ferry supplies, more artillery placed to bombard Indian positions, heavy weapons and more air cover, Pakistan could have held that ground.

As for LTTE, they were able to inflict heavy losses on India and India ran away. The point is that was the last time India will ever send troops overseas in some sort of expeditionary campaign to install it self as this great power in the region. The same reason why it has no troops in Afghanistan.

So India has not defeated Pakistan in all the wars. And the war that India won in 1971, Pakistan was handicapped by long distances and geography and so it was a foregone conclusion.

In a fair fight like 1965 we held our ground, where as you guys were totally defeated by China in 1962.

 

[TheJewverine]

LoL why are you Indians so freaked out about a gun? You were just chest thumping a few pages earlier?


A gun is a tool like a knife or a hammer.

You've certainly got the "tool" part of the equation covered...