Pak may never try another Kargil, but it could get worse

[Secur]

No claims were made - ever - of surgical strikes or invasions.

These have been considered and planned, and abandoned when it became apparent that giving up these options would increase the world's impression that Pakistan was irresponsible and an aggressor, and India was a mature, responsible power. The policy has worked very well.

Claims were made of both , even two fronts war and cold start ... What was the result ? We saw the Indian actions in '87 , '02 and '08 ... Mobilized troops , threatened and then backed off ... Why ? Despite overwhelming conventional superiority ...

Yes someone considered them too seriously in 2001-2002 stand off ... Mobilized troops and lost 800+ in the process without Pakistan firing a single bullet ... Kept them at border for years and then unilaterally backed off ... Now what you are saying is just an excuse that it enhanced India's image ... Indeed , the policy worked well ... Pakistan nuclear doctrine has been perfected and now its known that Indians will never try to cross some red lines ...

any one that is reliable like Wikipedia , Global security.org, Not like sources from rupeenews.com,sisataurpakistan.com

None of them are Indian , I think ...

 

[ares]

How big of a dumbass does one have to be to keep asking the same questions which have been answered like 100's of times! I guess, for Indian, there is no limit to how dumb one can really get.

One more time then... maybe I am not as smart as adolescent Pakistani fanboys..hence I need to explained slowly..how you are able to interpret the humiliating defeat suffered by you in Kargil into a glorious victory??!!

So do explain one more time what did you win in Kargil, what is the price you paid for it?

 

[meena24]

Claims were made of both , even two fronts war and cold start ... What was the result ? We saw the Indian actions in '87 , '02 and '08 ... Mobilized troops , threatened and then backed off ... Why ? Despite overwhelming conventional superiority ...

Yes someone considered them too seriously in 2001-2002 stand off ... Mobilized troops and lost 800+ in the process without Pakistan firing a single bullet ... Kept them at border for years and then unilaterally backed off ... Now what you are saying is just an excuse that it enhanced India's image ... Indeed , the policy worked well ... Pakistan nuclear doctrine has been perfected and now its known that Indians will never try to cross some red lines ...



None of them are Indian , I think ...

Dude you also mobilized your army , why your president gave a TV speech regarding terrorism in Kashmir, May be due to Indian army strike corps?

Claims were made of both , even two fronts war and cold start ... What was the result ? We saw the Indian actions in '87 , '02 and '08 ... Mobilized troops , threatened and then backed off ... Why ? Despite overwhelming conventional superiority ...

Yes someone considered them too seriously in 2001-2002 stand off ... Mobilized troops and lost 800+ in the process without Pakistan firing a single bullet ... Kept them at border for years and then unilaterally backed off ... Now what you are saying is just an excuse that it enhanced India's image ... Indeed , the policy worked well ... Pakistan nuclear doctrine has been perfected and now its known that Indians will never try to cross some red lines ...



None of them are Indian , I think ...

2001 Parliament attack: Counter attack has been carried out.
2008: Mumbai attacks: Counter attack has been carried out although material damage has been tallied, but casualties are yet to tally,

 

[Mercenary]

Besides Nawaz Sharif who was totally out of the loop of the Kargil operation, there is no other source which mentions that 4,000 Pakistani soldiers were killed.

The fact is if 4,000 Pakistani soldiers died out of the 5,000 that were there, then there should have been dead bodies littering all over those hills and would have been found by the Indians.

How could 1,000 tired and wounded soldiers carry all those bodies back to Pakistan?

Use some common sense when leeching onto any nonsensical info just so it makes Pakistan looks bad.

 

[Secur]

We never lost 4 Peaks no International source quotes this one, Only peak which we lost was Point 5353, Another thing is your primary objective of snatching siachen was never a success.

Just because you asked ...

Pakistan still occupies four kargil peaks
Tehelka - The People's Paper

On July 26, the country celebrates Vijay Diwas to commemorate India’s victory in the Kargil war. But five years since the war, four strategic Indian posts in Kargil are still under Pakistani control and the government is not ready to spell out the truth, reports VK Shashikumar

Point 5353, Bunker Ridge, Saddle Ridge, Dalu Nag. These are posts in the Kargil sector that the soldiers of the Indian army knew incontrovertibly to be their own. They form a sort of memory map of disjointed emplacements along the treacherous mountains in the Kargil sector. Features that are joined in various military maps of the area by dotted lines.
Meanwhile, within the army at the level of middle and junior level officers and the brave jawans, there is discontent. Any army unit that has done its tour of duty in Kargil after the war in the summer of 1999 has heard about the secrets locked up in the forbidding heights.

Perhaps it is painful for the army top brass to admit that Operation Vijay was not really an unalloyed victory.

Fact and fiction on Point 5353
Fact and fiction on Point 5353

IN August, news broke that Pakistan holds one of the most important mountain features in the Drass Sector, Point 5353-metres. Since then, there has been a welter of fresh revelations, the most important of them being lawyer and Rajya Sabha MP R.K. Anand' s disclosure that five other positions on the Indian side of the Line of Control (LoC) are held by Pakistan. Anand also made public Army's internal correspondence on the causes of the debacle over Point 5353.

Aul later tried to use these two heights to bring about a territorial exchange. In mid-August 1999, his efforts bore fruit, and both sides committed themselves to leave Points 5353, 5240, 4251 and 4875 unoccupied. Indian and Pakistani troops pulled back to their pre-Kargil position as part of a larger agreement between their respective DGMOs. In October that year, however, the deal broke down. Aul tasked the 16 Grenadiers to take Point 5240 and the 1/3 Gorkha Rifles to occupy Point 5353, choosing to vio late the August agreement rather than risk a Pakistani reoccupation of these positions. The operation was mishandled, and when the Pakistani troops detected the Indian presence on 5240, they promptly launched a counter-assault on Point 5353.

Pakistan rapidly consolidated its position on 5353 after the abortive Indian offensive. Concrete bunkers came up on the peak, and a road was constructed to the base of the peak of Benazir Post. And with Point 5353 and its adjoining area now linked by roa d to Pakistan's rear headquarters at Gultari, any attack will lead to a full-blown resumption of hostilities. No official from the Army or the Defence Ministry has, until the third week of September, denied this sequence of events.

Near Tiger Hill, Point 5353 still Pak-occupied
Near Tiger Hill, Point 5353 still Pak-occupied - Indian Express

Standing tall and dominating the famous Tiger Hill on the Line of Control (LoC) is a grim reminder of the Kargil war. Point 5353, the highest peak in the region which has a clear view of the National Highway 1 D, remains occupied by Pakistan even a decade after the battle.

While the point is clearly on the Indian side of the LoC, it remains in Pakistani control which has fortified it with reinforced bunkers and has even built a special road nearby to carry up supplies for soldiers.

The Indian Army, which made several unsuccessful attempts to occupy the post after the Kargil war, has since given up the post as “untenable” given the geography of the region that makes it fairly easy for Pakistani troops to climb.

Commander ordered capture of Point 5353 in Kargil war
The Hindu : National : Commander ordered capture of Point 5353 in Kargil war

NEW DELHI, JUNE 29 . Indian soldiers had attempted to capture Point 5353, a strategically-important peak in the Dras sector, in the first days of the Kargil war. New evidence that such an assault took place blows apart contradictory claims by the former Defence Minister, George Fernandes, and top military officials that the feature does not lie on the Indian side of the Line of Control.

An investigation by The Hindu has gained access to orders issued to Major Navneet Mehra of the 16 Grenadiers Regiment, ordering him to lead an assault on Point 5353, so named for its altitude in metres. It is the highest feature in the Dras sector, and allows the Pakistani troops to observe National Highway 1A, as well as an alternative Dras-Kargil route that is now under construction.

Major Mehra's men were asked to evict the Pakistani intruders on Point 5353 by 6 a.m. on May 18, 1999. The officer's plan was to set up three fire bases along the base of the peak to support the infantry assault by two groups.

Although backed by some artillery, both groups faced a difficult climb, under direct fire from both the Pakistani positions on Point 5353 and Point 5165.

However, Major Mehra's despatches note, his commanding officer, Col. Pushpinder Oberoi, gave specific orders "to go for it at any cost." Col. Oberoi's troops failed to execute his instructions. Ill-equipped for the extreme cold, and not properly acclimatised to the altitude, the troops withdrew after suffering 13 casualties. The attack was finally called off at 3 a.m. on May 19, 1999.

 

[meena24]

We agree with the fact that Point 5353 is occupied by pakistan, What about 4 other peaks?

Our former chief has refuted the comment that point 5353 was occupied by India.

http://in.rediff.com/news/2001/jul/27inter.htm

 

[RazPaK]

These Indians are brainwashed. In ten years it will be 40,000 were killed in the conflict. Their media and government is so irresponsible they tell lies to their own people.

 

[Secur]

We agree with the fact that Point 5353 is occupied by pakistan, you mentioned 4 other peaks

And I very well posted the proof of that claim from Indian sources which you conveniently skipped ... Go read it again ...

These Indians are brainwashed. In ten years it will be 40,000 were killed in the conflict. Their media and government is so irresponsible they tell lies to their own people.

Almost all of the people making the claim do not even know what 4000+ casualties would mean , had it ever happened

Dude you also mobilized your army , why your president gave a TV speech regarding terrorism in Kashmir, May be due to Indian army strike corps?

2001 Parliament attack: Counter attack has been carried out.
2008: Mumbai attacks: Counter attack has been carried out although material damage has been tallied, but casualties are yet to tally,

So we did , what else did you expect ? ... I heard it took you a month to reach D-Day readiness such that when IA finally reached the border after suffering 800 losses in deployment , they found the Pakistanis locked and loaded ...

Consider it more of a diplomatic maneuver ... Do you know when the speech was given ? ...
Indian strike corps ? Have you forget the "cleared hot" and "missiles ready" threat at the parliament by the same Musharraf ?

What counter attack ? What is the new propaganda being fed to you by TOI at the moment ?

 

[meena24]

And I very well posted the proof of that claim from Indian sources which you conveniently skipped ... Go read it again ...



Almost all of the people making the claim do not even know what does 4000+ casualties would mean

Thekla a nice source?

When you don't rely on Wikipedia why should we rely upon Thekla?

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

I know that you know very little of the arrival of Islam in the subcontinent and are fed with false " conversion at the point of sword " theories ... Just answer me this , if the Muslim invaders were converting everyone then how come there's still a majority of Hindus in the subcontinent ? ... Sorry , nobody's disrespecting anyone ... Who were you when you weren't a Hindu ? Religion changes with time ... No one is shouting on his fellow Muslims who were done with Hindu caste system who saw the light of truth in the new religion of Islam at that time and converted of his own will and through the efforts of Sufis , some of which even you Hindus revere even now ... Who's to deny they didn't rule India for almost a 1000 years ?

conversions did happen by force , by offering money and other gains and well as by genuine interest also .

yes religion change by time and by change of religion you will not become somebody else, you will not become conquered to conqueror. when Pakistani says we ruled you for thousand years they are trying to become those Persian conquerors by association of religion. And when you say we Muslims ruled over India you are forgetting India is not only consists of Hindus but more or less equal number of Muslims when compared to Pakistan.

 

[meena24]

And I very well posted the proof of that claim from Indian sources which you conveniently skipped ... Go read it again ...



Almost all of the people making the claim do not even know what 4000+ casualties would mean , had they ever inflicted



So we did , what else did you expect ? ... I heard it took you a month to reach D-Day readiness such that when IA finally reached the border after suffering 800 losses in deployment , they found the Pakistanis locked and loaded ...

Consider it more of a diplomatic maneuver ... Do you know when the speech was given ? ...

What counter attack ? What is the new propaganda being fed to you by TOI at the moment ?

Parliament attacK: General Head Quarters attack
26/11 attack : PNS Mehran attack
It is not necessary that every time we have to retaliate with a conventional Operation,

PS: when thekla alone has mentioned Point 5353 and four other peaks?, why other news papers have ignored to mention the name of other peaks?

Just because you asked ...

Pakistan still occupies four kargil peaks
Tehelka - The People's Paper

Fact and fiction on Point 5353
Fact and fiction on Point 5353


Near Tiger Hill, Point 5353 still Pak-occupied
Near Tiger Hill, Point 5353 still Pak-occupied - Indian Express

Commander ordered capture of Point 5353 in Kargil war
The Hindu : National : Commander ordered capture of Point 5353 in Kargil war

Why Thekla alone has quoted other four peaks, why other news papers have not quoted the names of other peaks?

Every one know what you achieved in kargil.

Aeronaut: Kargil Conflict and Pakistan Air Force

Just because you asked ...

Pakistan still occupies four kargil peaks
Tehelka - The People's Paper

Fact and fiction on Point 5353
Fact and fiction on Point 5353


Near Tiger Hill, Point 5353 still Pak-occupied
Near Tiger Hill, Point 5353 still Pak-occupied - Indian Express

Commander ordered capture of Point 5353 in Kargil war
The Hindu : National : Commander ordered capture of Point 5353 in Kargil war

Why Thekla alone has quoted other four peaks, why other news papers have not quoted the names of other peaks?

Every one know what you achieved in kargil.

Aeronaut: Kargil Conflict and Pakistan Air Force

Just because you asked ...

Pakistan still occupies four kargil peaks
Tehelka - The People's Paper

Fact and fiction on Point 5353
Fact and fiction on Point 5353


Near Tiger Hill, Point 5353 still Pak-occupied
Near Tiger Hill, Point 5353 still Pak-occupied - Indian Express

Commander ordered capture of Point 5353 in Kargil war
The Hindu : National : Commander ordered capture of Point 5353 in Kargil war

Why Thekla alone has quoted other four peaks, why other news papers have not quoted the names of other peaks?

Every one know what you achieved in kargil.

Aeronaut: Kargil Conflict and Pakistan Air Force

 

[Secur]

Thekla a nice source?

When you don't rely on Wikipedia why should we rely upon Thekla?

There's another Indian one reporting that ... The second one ... It mentions 5 peaks under the control of Pakistan without any name ... Sorry , you wont find no excuse here

Thats for you , you asked for source ... What is better than the one from you own country ?

 

[meena24]

There's another Indian one reporting that ... The second one ... It mentions 5 peaks under the control of Pakistan without any name ... Sorry , you wont find no excuse here

Thats for you , you asked for source ... What is better than the one from you own country ?

You have quoted the source from news papers i have quoted the sources from your former airforce staff and army staff

what you achieved is Point 5353 not anything more than that.

One more statements to call your bluff again

One from Kaiser Tufail
Aeronaut: Kargil Conflict and Pakistan Air Force

And another one from Pakistan General

Above statements are more than enough to state what paksitan achieved in kargil

 

[Secur]

Parliament attacK: General Head Quarters attack
26/11 attack : PNS Mehran attack
It is not necessary that every time we have to retaliate with a conventional Operation,

Is that what Indians consider as counter attack ? ... How many Pakistani generals or soldiers did you manage to kill in GHQ attack ? for the sake of debate accepting that you did that ... Except for the terrorist killed

The damage of Mehran base attack was repaired and Pakistan beefed up security at bases around the country so no luck there too ... The replacement of P3C Orion arrived just this year ... again accepting for the sake of discussion you were involved in that

Shall i start now with Indian consulate attack and other ones in J&K ?

 

[Secur]

You have quoted the source from news papers i have quoted the sources from your former airforce staff and army staff

I have quoted , what you asked for ... Why blame me ?

I see no denial that Pakistan didn't gain 5 strategic peaks from the general ... Silence on the matter means what then ?

Sorry , there's no bluff ... The sources I quoted mentioned that within the IA , it is accepted that Pakistan still occupies " some " peaks from the Kargil War ...