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Pak may never try another Kargil, but it could get worse

Even I've truck load of classified info which i cant share in open forum.infact it can only be shared among selected group of 5 only:tongue:
where did i said it was classified information?seriously how much old are you???
i clearly said i can't share that info here.does that means it's classified???
mate you know what???
you are a troll and all this time i was debating with someone who is here to satisfy his/her ego :hitwall:
 
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What will you choose, Indian propaganda against other country or other country's people engaged in terrorist attack on Indian soil. How picky you are, Intelligence one mistake about those people, but if they haven't taken action, just like their info was discarded by higher officials during Mumbai attack and these people turned out to be terrorist and killed innocent people.At one place you defend villagers killing CRPF, Army killing local people and at this place your are ready to take a risk regarding suspect who could be potential terrorist. Its better safe than sorry.
I wont prefer the indian propaganda.I would prefer the targeted killings of elites by terrorists.That helps poor of india.For me elites of india are the worst terrorists on the majority poor masses of india.so if they are attacked no qualms about it.



You don't like Indian govt, inteliigence agencies and armed forces, do it, but provide solution for cross border terrorism, protection of our national interests, illegal immigrants and aggressive maneuvers by hostile country making defense pact with our neighbors to encircle us. Its not paranoia, it has been successfully used by many countries.

Provide solutions alternative of what our armed forces and intelligence agencies do.
solutions i ve suggested many times in various threads...
Bhay bin hot na preet.
you want peace then wage war.
Its the blood has to be shed to long term peace.
status-quo never works.
Go- into extended civil war.

India has never got freedom its just free physically its soul is still trapped.
 
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I wont prefer the indian propaganda.I would prefer the targeted killings of elites by terrorists.That helps poor of india.For me elites of india are the worst terrorists on the majority poor masses of india.so if they are attacked no qualms about it.



solutions i ve suggested many times in various threads...
Bhay bin hot na preet.
you want peace then wage war.
Its the blood has to be shed to long term peace.
status-quo never works.
Go- into extended civil war.

India has never got freedom its just free physically its soul is still trapped.
In my college days, one student wrote a letter to the head of our institute which was entirely philosophical and she offered no solution what so ever.

One of our professor who also got the letter, who have been faculty in Cambridge and worked in top multi-national company wrote one beautiful line...

Last thing we need is, Engineers turning into Philosophers.

We have philosophers like you who don't give any practical solution just want to act like Hitler did, the Final Solution, Kill the Elites just like he killed the Jews.

Why don't you criticize when Ajeem Premji and Anita Ambani launches NGOs for poor? Should we kill them too.

Why don't you not let the NRIs related to elite families to enter our country who sends lakhs to various NGOs working for education of poor. (I know a person who sends 25 lakhs in a year saying if I can't work in NGO, I can certainly help them).

Why kill elite class, where they open institutes in their name but provide best research and academic facilities.

If someone like you would have killed Jamshedji Tata, we can't estimate what we would we have lost.

I admit there are plenty of elites who don't do for their country, but so our middle class and poor.

Our middle class is the major part of corruption in our country. Each policemen, govt. official, etc. do some type of corruption which if quantified will surpass Raja, Kalmadi and all, (not supporting Raja, Kalmadi).

Poor person like milkmen sell adulterated milk in villages. In villages girls are killed, child marriage is rampant, superstition is high.....and you blame elites only.

Be neutral when you blame someone.
 
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In my college days, one student wrote a letter to the head of our institute which was entirely philosophical and she offered no solution what so ever.

One of our professor who also got the letter, who have been faculty in Cambridge and worked in top multi-national company wrote one beautiful line...

Last thing we need is, Engineers turning into Philosophers.

We have philosophers like you who don't give any practical solution just want to act like Hitler did, the Final Solution, Kill the Elites just like he killed the Jews.

Why don't you criticize when Ajeem Premji and Anita Ambani launches NGOs for poor? Should we kill them too.

Why don't you not let the NRIs related to elite families to enter our country who sends lakhs to various NGOs working for education of poor. (I know a person who sends 25 lakhs in a year saying if I can't work in NGO, I can certainly help them).

Why kill elite class, where they open institutes in their name but provide best research and academic facilities.

If someone like you would have killed Jamshedji Tata, we can't estimate what we would we have lost.

I admit there are plenty of elites who don't do for their country, but so our middle class and poor.

Our middle class is the major part of corruption in our country. Each policemen, govt. official, etc. do some type of corruption which if quantified will surpass Raja, Kalmadi and all, (not supporting Raja, Kalmadi).

Poor person like milkmen sell adulterated milk in villages. In villages girls are killed, child marriage is rampant, superstition is high.....and you blame elites only.

Be neutral when you blame someone.
Simple reason is they compromise the indian interests.The difference between you and me is that you see only the movie but i make it.its just an analogy.And yes Engineers can also be better philosopher so i dont agree with ur professor.
 
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Kargil was humiliation for Pakistan so much so that they even refused to take back their dead troops.

Oh no my friend, all we said was to hold on because we were so overwhelmed with the bodies of dead Indian soldiers that we simply could not cope.

Ok.. You win.. In 1971, we lost the war and Bangladesh was carved out of Indian territory that India later propagandized to be Pakistani territory that broke away.. Aw Cr@p.. You busted out secret that we managed to preserve for 41 years :)

First you wanted me to stay on topic about Kargil, then you drag in 71 when Bangladesh used you like a ***** for the night and left you dry once the night was gone. But if it is history that we are speaking of, let me remind you how we carved out Pakistan & Bangladesh from India even before you were born!
 
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lol it was the same nawaz with 2/3 majority and command over army who could not stop your general and army from a mis adventure.. so don't tell me about what power nawaz had.
result of the war shows who won and who lost.. we sure has taken some hit because of our position but we have taken back all of the important peeks.
A capable country may uses diplomatic or military powers according to the need and situations. In kargil we used both together and achieved victory ..
if you see the map you will come to know where is point 5353 and how insignificant it is.. we recaptured all other hills and all you got is point 5353 to cheer up against a diplomatic humiliation and failed military action. And before starting the mis adventure your general should have calculated the international pressure especially from your big daddy America.
1999 Kargil Conflict


And I wonder why it is so hard for you to understand that NS commanded so much power that nothing could have moved behind him. He was well aware of Kargil plan. I have always admired India's diplomatic machinery but as I have already stated in an earlier post, we have not been as blessed as India in our civilian leaders. No wonder we look to the Military whenever in deep ****. You want a simple example, look at statements issued by NS on Kargil, he declared that Pakistan lost somewhere around 4k soldiers where as even Indian figures for casualties on Pakistani side top at around 1k. These are the civilian leaders that we have, no wonder Musharraf routed NS's tyrant *** to SA.

You are correct that we should have calculated the international response and perhaps we did but incorrectly, especially the reaction from US which was very demoralizing for the civilian Government as they forced us to back off instead of lending any support to Kashmir cause.

Whenever I look back at Kargil, I wonder if we should have done that when the Soviets started withdrawing from Afghanistan as then the US would have been forced to help us politically internationally.

i would rather believe my brother who was in the army at the time of 99.he told me some bitter truth from the indian side and some from pakistani side.the
a soldier deserve a national hero burial.forget the burial they didn't accepted the dead bodies of there heroes who were fighting an poorly organised war with poorly organised tactics.atleast they deserve a proper burial in there homeland..

Please have a look at the earlier posts, have a look at my earlier posts in which I personally have explained the reason and planning behind Kargil. It was never meant to be more then a few thousand fighters because of tactical and political reasons. If you understand what was planned and achieved, you would stop statements on poor tactics and organization, plans etc.
 
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First you wanted me to stay on topic about Kargil, then you drag in 71 when Bangladesh used you like a ***** for the night and left you dry once the night was gone. But if it is history that we are speaking of, let me remind you how we carved out Pakistan & Bangladesh from India even before you were born!

You are the one to talk about someone being used like ***** ... Hint : USA & Pakistan in 1980's and a rerun in 2000's :)

and about carving out Pakistan from India, you guys need to come out of your confusion first. One Pakistani says that there was no India before 1947 and the other says we carved Pakistan out of India in 1947.. Kissi cheez mein to hypocrisy rehne do .. :lol:
 
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Kargil Conflict and Pakistan Air Force

Pakistani writings on Kargil conflict have been few; those that did come out were largely irrelevant and in a few cases, were clearly sponsored. The role of the PAF has been discussed off and on, but mostly disparagingly, particularly in some uninformed quarters. Here is an airman’s perspective, focusing on the IAF’s air operations and the PAF’s position.

Operational Planning in the PAF

Since an important portion of this write-up pertains to the PAF’s appreciation of the situation and the decision-making loop during the Kargil conflict, we will start with a brief primer on PAF’s hierarchy and how operational matters are handled at the Air Headquarters.

The policy-making elements at Air Headquarters consist of four-tiers of staff officers. The top-most tier is made up of the Deputy Chiefs of Air Staff (DCAS) who are the Principal Staff Officers (PSOs) of their respective branches and are nominally headed by the Vice Chief of Air Staff (VCAS). They (along with Air Officers Commanding, the senior representatives from field formations) are members of the Air Board, PAF’s ‘corporate’ decision-making body which is chaired by the Chief of the Air Staff (CAS). The next tier is made up of Assistant Chiefs of Air Staff (ACAS) who head various sub-branches and, along with the third-tier Directors, assist the PSOs in policy-making; they are not on the Air Board, but can be called for hearings and presentations in the Board meetings, as required. A fourth tier of Deputy Directors does most of the sundry staff work in this policy-making hierarchy.

The Operations & Plans branch is the key player in any war, conflict or contingency and is responsible for threat assessment and formulation of a suitable response. During peace-time, war plans are drawn up by the Plans sub-branch and are then war-gamed in operational exercises run by the sister Operations sub-branch. Operational training is accordingly restructured and administered by the latter, based on the lessons of various exercises. This essentially is the gist of PAF’s operational preparedness methodology, the efficiency of which is amply reflected in its readiness and telling response in various wars and skirmishes in the past.

In early 1999, Air Chief Marshal Parvaiz Mehdi Qureshi was at the helm of the PAF. An officer with an imposing personality, he had won the Sword of Honour at the Academy. During the 1971 Indo-Pak War, as a young Flight Lieutenant, he was on a close support mission in erstwhile East Pakistan when his Sabre was shot down and he was taken POW. He determinedly resumed his fighter pilot’s career after repatriation and rose to command PAF’s premier Sargodha Base. He was later appointed as the AOC, Southern Air Command, an appointment that affords considerable interaction amongst the three services, especially in operational exercises. He also held the vitally important post of DCAS (Ops) as well as the VCAS before taking over as CAS.

The post of DCAS (Ops) was held by the late Air Marshal Zahid Anis. A well-qualified fighter pilot, he had a distinguished career in the PAF, having held some of the most sought-after appointments. These included command of No 38 Tactical Wing (F-16s), the elite Combat Commanders’ School and PAF Base, Sargodha. He was the AOC, Southern Air Command before his appointment as the head of the Operations branch at the Air Headquarters. He had done his Air War Course at the PAF’s Air War College, another War Course at the French War College as well as the prestigious Defence Studies course at the Royal College of Defence Studies in UK.

The ACAS (Ops) was Air Cdre Abid Rao, who had recently completed command of PAF Base, Mianwali. He had earlier done his War Course from the French War College.

The ACAS (Plans) was the late Air Cdre Saleem Nawaz, a brilliant officer who had made his mark at the Staff College at Bracknell, UK and during the War Course at the National Defence College, Islamabad.

There is no gainsaying the fact that PAF’s hierarchy was highly qualified and that each one of the players in the Operations branch had the requisite command and staff experience. The two top men had also fought in the 1971 Indo-Pak War, albeit as junior officers.

First Rumblings

As Director of Operations (in the rank of Gp Capt), my first opportunity to interact with the Army’s Director of Military Operations (DMO) was over a phone call, some time in March 1999. Brig Nadeem Ahmed called with great courtesy and requested some information that he needed for a paper exercise, as he told me. He wanted to know when had the PAF last carried out a deployment at Skardu, how many aircraft were deployed, etc. Rather impressed with the Army’s interest in PAF matters, I passed on the requisite details. The next day, Brig Nadeem called again, but this time his questions were more probing and he wanted some classified information including fuel storage capacity at Skardu, fighter sortie-generation capacity, radar coverage, etc. He insisted that he was preparing a briefing and wanted to get his facts and figures right, in front of his bosses. We got on a secure line and I passed on the required information. Although he made it sound like routine contingency planning, I sensed that something unusual was brewing. In the event, I thought it prudent to inform the DCAS (Ops). Just to be sure, he checked up with his counterpart, the Director General Military Operations (DGMO), Maj Gen Tauqir Zia, who said the same thing as his DMO and, assured that it was just part of routine contingency planning

Not withstanding the DGMO’s assurance, a cautious Air Marshal Zahid decided to check things for himself and despatched Gp Capt Tariq Ashraf, Officer Commanding of No 33 Wing at PAF Base, Kamra, to look things over at Skardu and make a report. Within a few days, Gp Capt Tariq (who was also the designated war-time commander of Skardu Base) had completed his visit, which included his own periodic war-readiness inspection. While he made a detailed report to the DCAS (Ops), he let me in on the Army’s mobilisation and other preparations that he had seen in Skardu. His analysis was that ‘something big is imminent.’ Helicopter flying activity was feverishly high as Army Aviation’s Mi-17s were busy moving artillery guns and ammunition to the mountain tops. Troops in battle gear were to be seen all over the city. Interestingly, Messes were abuzz with war chatter amongst young officers. In retrospect, one wonders how Indian intelligence agencies failed to read any such signs, many weeks before the operation unfolded.

After hearing Gp Capt Tariq’s report, Air Marshal Zahid again got in touch with Maj Gen Tauqir and, in a roundabout way, told him that if the Army’s ongoing ‘review of contingency plans’ required the PAF to be factored in, an Operations & Plans team would be available for discussion. Nothing was heard from the GHQ till 12 May, when Air Marshal Zahid was told to send a team for a briefing at HQ 10 Corps with regard to the ‘Kashmir Contingency’.

Air Cdre Abid Rao, Air Cdre Saleem Nawaz and myself were directed by the DCAS (Ops) to attend a briefing on the ‘latest situation in Kashmir’ at HQ 10 Corps. We were welcomed by the Chief of Staff (COS) of the Corps, who led us to the briefing room. Shortly thereafter, the Corps Commander, Lt Gen Mehmud Ahmad entered, cutting an impressive figure clad in a bush-coat and his trademark camouflage scarf. After exchanging pleasantries, the COS started with the map orientation briefing. Thereafter, Lt Gen Mehmud took over and broke the news that a limited operation had started two days earlier. It was nothing more than a ‘protective manoeuvre’, he explained, and was meant to foreclose any further mischief by the enemy, who had been a nuisance in the Neelum Valley, specially on the road on our side of the Line of Control (LOC). He then elaborated that a few vacant Indian posts had been occupied on peaks across the LOC, overlooking the Dras-Kargil Road. These would, in effect, serve the purpose of Airborne Observation Posts (AOP) meant for directing artillery fire with accuracy. Artillery firepower would be provided by a couple of field guns that had been heli-lifted to the heights, piecemeal, and re-assembled over the previous few months when the Indians had been off-guard during the winter extremes. The target was a vulnerable section of Dras-Kargil Road, whose blocking would virtually cut off the crucial life-line which carried the bulk of supplies needed for daily consumption as well as annual winter-stocking in Leh-Siachen Sector. He was very hopeful that this stratagem could choke off the Indians in the vital sector for up to a month, after which the monsoons would prevent vehicular movement (due to landslides) and, also suspend all airlift by the IAF. “Come October, we shall walk in to Siachen – to mop up the dead bodies of hundreds of Indians left hungry, out in the cold,” he succinctly summed up what appeared to be a new dimension to the Siachen dispute. It also seemed to serve, at least for the time being, the secondary aim of alleviating Indian military pressure on Pakistani lines of communications in the Neelum Valley that the Corps Commander had alluded to in his opening remarks. (The oft-heard strategic aim of ‘providing a fillip to the insurgency in Kashmir’ was never mentioned.)

When Lt Gen Mehmud asked for questions at the end of the rather crisp and to-the-point briefing, Air Cdre Saleem Nawaz opened up by inquiring about the type of air support that might be needed for the operation. Lt Gen Mehmud assured us that air support was not envisaged and that his forces could take care of enemy aircraft, if they intervened. “I have Stingers on every peak,” he announced. Air Cdre Saleem tried to point out the limited envelope of these types of missiles and said that nothing stopped the IAF from attacking the posts and artillery pieces from high altitude. To this, Lt Gen Mehmud’s reply was that his troops were well camouflaged and concealed and, that IAF pilots would not be able to pick out the posts from the air. As the discussion became more animated, I asked the Corps Commander if he was sure the Indians would not use their artillery to vacate our incursion, given the criticality of the situation from their standpoint. He replied that the Dras-Kargil stretch did not allow for positioning of the hundreds of guns that would be required, due to lack of depth; in any case, it would be suicidal for the Indians to denude artillery firepower from any other sector as defensive balance had to be maintained. He gave the example of the Kathua-Jammu Sector where the Indians had a compulsion to keep the bulk of their modern Bofors guns due to the vital road link’s vulnerability to our offensive elements.

It seemed from the Corps Commander’s smug appreciation of the situation that the Indians had been tightly straitjacketed in Dras-Kargil Sector and had no option but to submit to our operational design. More significantly, an alternate action like a strategic riposte by the Indians in another sector had been rendered out of question, given the nuclear environment. Whether resort to an exterior manoeuvre (diplomatic offensive) by the beleaguered Indians had crossed the planners’ minds, it was not discernable in the Corps Commander’s elucidation.

Perhaps it was the incredulousness of the whole thing that led Air Cdre Abid Rao to famously quip, “After this operation, it’s going to be either a Court Martial or Martial Law!” as we walked out of the briefing room.

Back at the Air Headquarters, we briefed the DCAS(Ops) about what had transpired at the 10 Corps briefing. His surprise at the developments, as well as his concern about the possibility of events spiralling out of control, could not remain concealed behind his otherwise unflappable demeanour. We all were also piqued at being left out of the Army’s planning, though we were given to believe that it was a ‘limited tactical action’ in which the PAF would not be required – an issue that none of us agreed with. Presented with a fait accompli, we decided not to lose any more time and, while the DCAS (Ops) went to brief the CAS about the situation, we set about gearing up for a hectic routine. The operations room was quickly updated with the latest large-scale maps and air recce photos of the area; communications links with concerned agencies were also revamped in a short time. Deployment orders were issued and, within the next 48 hours, the bulk of combat elements were in-situ at their war locations.

IAF – By Fits & Starts

The IAF deployments in Kashmir, for what came to be known as ‘Operation Safedsagar’, commenced on 15 May with the bulk of operational assets positioned by 18 May. 150 combat aircraft were deployed as follows:

> Srinagar - 34 (MiG-21, MiG-23, MiG-27)
> Awantipur - 28 (MiG-21, MiG-29, Jaguar)
> Udhampur - 12 (MiG-21)
> Pathankot - 30 (MiG-21, MiG-23)
> Adampur - 46 (Mir-2000, MiG-29, Jaguar)

One-third of the aircraft were modern, ‘high-threat’ fighters equipped with Beyond Visual Range (BVR) air-to-air missiles. During the preparatory stage, air defence alert status (5 minutes to scramble from ground) was maintained while Mirage-2000s and Jaguars carried out photo-reconnaissance along the Line of Control (LOC) and aging Canberras carried out electronic intelligence (ELINT) to ferret out locations of PAF air defence sensors. Last minute honing of strafing and rocketing skills was carried out by pilots at an air-to-ground firing range near Leh.

Operations by IAF started in earnest on 26 May, a full 16 days after commencement of Pakistani infiltration across the LOC. The salient feature of this initial phase was strafing and rocketing of the intruders’ positions by MiG-21, MiG-23BN and MiG-27. All operations (except air defence) came to a sudden standstill on 28 May, after two IAF fighters and a helicopter were lost – a MiG-21 and a Mi-17 to Pak Army surface-to-air missiles (SAMs), while a MiG-27 went down due to engine trouble caused by gun gas ingestion during high altitude strafing. (Incidentally, the pilot of the MiG-27 Flt Lt Nachiketa, who ejected and was apprehended, had a tête-à-tête with this author during an interesting ‘interrogation’ session.)

The results achieved by the IAF in the first two days were dismal. Serious restraints seem to have been imposed on the freedom of action of IAF fighters in what was basically a search-and-destroy mission. Lt Gen Mehmud’s rant about a ‘Stinger on every peak’ seemed true. It was obvious that the IAF had under-estimated the SAM threat. The mood in Pak Army circles was that of undiluted elation, and the PAF was expected to sit it out while sharing the khakis’ glee.

The IAF immediately went into a reappraisal mode and came out with GPS-assisted high altitude bombing by MiG-21, MiG-23BN and MiG-27 as a makeshift solution. In the meantime, quick modification on the Mirage-2000 for day/night laser bombing kits (Litening pods) was initiated with the help of Israelis. Conventional bombing that started incessantly after a two-day operational hiatus, was aimed at harassment and denial of respite to the infiltrators, with consequent adverse effects on morale. The results of this part of the campaign were largely insignificant, mainly because the target coordinates were not known accurately; the nature of the terrain too, precluded precision. A few cases of fratricide by IAF led it to be even more cautious.

By 16 June, IAF was able to open up the laser-guided bombing campaign with the help of Jaguars and Mirage-2000. Daily photo-recce along the LOC by Jaguars escorted by Mirage-2000s, which had continued from the beginning of operations, proved crucial to both the aerial bombing campaign as well as the Indian artillery, helping the latter in accurately shelling Pakistani positions in the Dras-Kargil and Gultari Sectors. While the photo-recce missions typically did not involve deliberate border violations, there were a total of 37 ‘technical violations’ (which emanate as a consequence of kinks and bends in the geographical boundaries). Typically, these averaged to a depth of five nautical miles, except on one occasion when the IAF fighters apparently cocked-a-snoot at the PAF and came in 13 miles deep.

The Mirage-2000s scored at least five successful laser-guided bomb hits on forward dumping sites and posts. During the last days of operations which ended on 12 July, it was clear that delivery accuracy had improved considerably. Even though night bombing accuracy was suspect, round-the-clock attacks had made retention of posts untenable for Pakistani infiltrators. Photo-recce of Pakistani artillery gun positions also made them vulnerable to Indian artillery.

The IAF flew a total of 550 strike missions against infiltrator positions including bunkers and supply depots. The coordinates of these locations were mostly picked up from about 150 reconnaissance and communications intelligence missions. In addition, 500 missions were flown for air defence and for escorting strike and recce missions.

While the Indians had been surprised by the infiltration in Kargil, the IAF mobilised and reacted rapidly as the Indian Army took time to position itself. Later, when the Indian Army had entrenched itself, the IAF supplemented and filled in where the artillery could not be positioned in force. Clearly, Army-Air joint operations had a synergistic effect in evicting the intruders.

PAF in a Bind

From the very beginning of Kargil operations, PAF was entrapped by a circumstantial absurdity: it was faced with the ludicrous predicament of having to provide air support to infiltrators already disowned by the Pakistan Army leadership! In any case, it took some effort to impress on the latter that crossing the LOC by fighters laden with bombs was not, by any stretch of imagination, akin to lobbing a few artillery shells to settle scores. There was no doubt in the minds of PAF Air Staff that the first cross-border attack (whether across LOC or the international border) would invite an immediate response from the IAF, possibly in the shape of a retaliatory strike against the home base of the intruding fighters, thus starting the first round. PAF’s intervention meant all-out war: this unmistakable conclusion was conveyed to the Prime Minister, Mr Nawaz Sharif, by the Air Chief in no equivocal terms.

Short of starting an all-out war, PAF looked at some saner options that could put some wind in the sails after doldrums had been hit. Air Marshal Najib Akhtar, the Air Officer Commanding of Air Defence Command was co-opted by the Air Staff to sift the possibilities. Audacious and innovative in equal parts, Air Marshal Najib had an excellent knowledge about our own and the enemy’s Air Defence Ground Environment (ADGE). He had conceived and overseen the unprecedented heli-lift of a low-looking radar to a 12,000-ft mountain top on the forbidding, snow-clad Deosai Plateau. The highly risky operation became possible with the help of some courageous flying by Army Aviation pilots. With good low level radar cover now available up to the LOC, Air Marshal Najib along with the Air Staff focused on fighter sweep (a mission flown to destroy patrolling enemy fighters) as a possible option.

To prevent the mission from being seen as an escalatory step in the already charged atmosphere, PAF had to lure Indian fighters into its own territory, ie Azad Kashmir or the Northern Areas. That done, a number of issues had to be tackled. What if the enemy aircraft were hit in our territory but fell across, providing a pretext to India as a doubly aggrieved party? What if one of our own aircraft fell, no matter if the exchange was one-to-one (or better)? Finally, even if we were able to pull off a surprise, would it not be a one-off incident, with the IAF becoming wiser in quick time? The over-arching consideration was the BVR missile capability of IAF fighters which impinged unfavourably on the mission success probability. The conclusion was that a replication of the famous four-Vampire rout of 1st September 1965 by two Sabres might not be possible. The idea of a fighter sweep thus fizzled out as quickly as it came up for discussion.

While the PAF looked at some offensive options, it had a more pressing defensive issue at hand. The IAF’s minor border violations during recce missions were not of grave consequence in so far as no bombing had taken place in our territory; however, the fact that these missions helped the enemy refine its air and artillery targeting, was, to say the least, disconcerting. There were constant reports of our troops on the LOC disturbed to see, or hear, IAF fighters operating with apparent impunity. The GHQ took the matter up with the AHQ and it was resolved that Combat Air Patrols (CAPs) would be flown by the F-16s operating out of Minhas (Kamra) and Sargodha. This arrangement resulted in less on-station time but was safer than operating out of vulnerable Skardu, which had inadequate early warning in the mountainous terrain; its status as a turn-around facility was, however, considered acceptable for its location. A flight of F-7s was, nonetheless, deployed primarily for point defence of the important garrison town of Skardu as well as the air base.

F-16 CAPs could not have been flown all day long as spares support was limited under the prevailing US sanctions. Random CAPs were resorted to, with a noticeable drop in border violations only as long as the F-16s were on station. There were a few cases of F-16s and Mirage-2000s locking their adversaries with the on-board radars but caution usually prevailed and no close encounters took place. After one week of CAPs, the F-16 maintenance personnel indicated that war reserve spares were being eaten into and that the activity had to be ‘rationalised’, a euphemism for discontinuing it altogether. That an impending war occupied the Air Staff’s minds was evident in the decision by the DCAS (Ops) for F-16 CAPs to be discontinued, unless IAF activity became unbearably provocative or threatening.

Those not aware of the gravity of the F-16 operability problem under sanctions have complained of the PAF’s lack of cooperation. Suffice it to say that if the PAF had been included in the initial planning, this anomaly (along with many others) would have emerged as a mitigating factor against the Kargil adventure. It is another matter that the Army high command did not envisage operations ever coming to such a pass. Now, it was almost as if the PAF was to blame for the Kargil venture spiralling out of control.

It also must be noted too that other than F-16s, the PAF did not have a capable enough fighter for patrolling, as the minimum requirement in this scenario was an on-board airborne intercept radar, exceptional agility and sufficient staying power. F-7s had reasonably good manoeuvrability but lacked an intercept radar as well as endurance, while the ground attack Mirage-III/5s and A-5s were sitting ducks for the air combat mission.

In sum, the PAF found it expedient not to worry too much about minor border violations and instead, conserve resources for the larger conflagration that was looming. All the same, it gave the enemy no pretext for retaliation in the face of any provocation, though this latter stance irked some quarters in the Army that were desperate to ‘equal the match’. Might it strike to some that PAF’s restraint in warding off a major conflagration may have been its paramount contribution to the Kargil conflict?

Aftermath

It has emerged that the principal protagonists of the Kargil adventure were General Pervez Musharraf: Chief of Army Staff, Lt Gen Mehmud Ahmed: Commander 10 Corps and, Maj Gen Javed Hasan: Commander Force Command Northern Areas. The trio, in previous ranks and appointments, had been associated with planning during paper exercises on how to wrest control of lost territory in Siachen. The plans were not acceptable to the then Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, to whom the options had been put up for review more than once. She was well-versed in international affairs and, all too intelligent to be taken in by the chicanery. It fell to the wisdom of her successor, Mr Nawaz Sharif, to approve the Army trio’s self-serving presentation.

In an effort to keep the plan secret, which was thought to be the key to its successful initiation, the Army trio took no one into confidence, neither its own operational commanders nor the heads of the other services. This, regrettably, resulted in a closed-loop thought process which engendered a string of oversights and failures:
Failure to grasp the wider military and diplomatic ramifications of a limited tactical operation that had the potential of creating major strategic effects.
Failure to correctly visualise the response of a powerful enemy to what was, in effect, a major blow in a disputed sector.
Failure to spell out the specific aim to field commanders, who acted on their own to needlessly capture territory and expand the scope of the operation to unmanageable levels.
Failure to appreciate the inability of the Army officers to evaluate the capabilities and limitations of an Air Force.
Failure to coordinate contingency plans at the tri-services level.
The flaws in the Kargil Plan that led to these failures were almost palpable and, could not have escaped even a layman’s attention during a cursory examination. The question arises as to why all the planners got blinded to the obvious? Could it be that some of the sub-ordinates had the sight but not the nerve in the face of a powerful superior? In hierarchical organisations, there is precious little room for dissent, but in autocratic ones like the military, it takes more than a spine to disagree, for there are very few commanders who are large enough to allow such liberties. It is out of fear of annoying the superior – which also carries with it manifold penalties and loss of promotion and perks – that the majority decide to go along with the wind.

In a country where democratic traditions have never been deep-rooted, it is no big exposé to point out that the military is steeped in an authoritarian, rather than a consensual approach. To my mind, there is an urgent need to inculcate a more liberal culture that accommodates different points of view – a more lateral approach, so to speak. Disagreement during planning should be systemically tolerated and, not taken as a personal affront. Unfortunately, many in higher ranks seem to think that rank alone confers wisdom and, anyone displaying signs of intelligence at an earlier stage is, somehow, an alien in their ‘star-spangled’ universe.

Kargil, I suspect, like the ‘65 and ‘71 Wars, was a case of not having enough dissenters (‘devil’s advocates’, if you will) during planning, because everyone wanted to agree with the boss. That single reason, I think, was the root cause of most of the failures that were apparent right from the beginning. If this point is understood well, remedial measures towards tolerance and liberalism can follow as a matter of course. Such an organisational milieu, based on honest appraisal and fearless appeal, would be conducive to sound and sensible planning. It would also go a long way in precluding Kargil-like disasters.

Tailpiece

Come change-over time of the Chief of Air Staff in 2001, President Musharraf struck at PAF’s top leadership in what can only be described as implacable action: he passed over all five Air Marshals and appointed the sixth-in-line who was practically an Air Vice Marshal till a few weeks before. While disregarding of seniority in the appointment of service chiefs has historically been endemic in the country, the practice has been seen as breeding nepotism and partiality, besides leaving a trail of conjecture and gossip in the ranks. Given Air Chief Marshal Mehdi’s rather straight-faced and forthright dealings with General Musharraf, particularly during Kargil conflict, there is good reason to believe that the latter decided to appoint a not-very-senior Air Chief whom he could order around like one of his Corps Commanders. (As it turned out, Air Chief Marshal Mus’haf was as solid as his predecessor and gave no quarter when it came to PAF’s interests.) Whatever the reason of bypassing seniority, it was unfortunate that PAF’s precious corporate experience was thrown out so crassly and several careers destroyed. Lives and honour lost in Kargil is another matter.

© M KAISER TUFAIL

This article was published in Air Forces Monthly (UK) - June 2009 issue, under the title 'Himalayan Showdown'. The article was also published in Defence Journal (Pak), May 2009 issue.

Aeronaut: Kargil Conflict and Pakistan Air Force

A Country Refused to Accept Bodies of It's Soldiers and they were Buried in Kargil By Indian Army. Nothing Shameful Can be for the Army of that Country....People can Thump There Chest.
 
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RazBas, Pakistani @$$ was kicked... you can say what you want..
its like jumping up and down and saying that the earth is flat.

Withdrawal and final battles

Following the outbreak of armed fighting, Pakistan sought American help in de-escalating the conflict. Bruce Riedel, aide to then President Bill Clinton reported that the US intelligence had imaged Pakistani movements of nuclear weapons to forward deployments for fear of the Kargil hostilities escalating into a wider conflict between the two countries. However, President Clinton refused to intervene until Pakistan had removed all forces from the Indian side of the Line of Control.[61] Following the Washington accord on July 4, where Sharif agreed to withdraw Pakistani troops, most of the fighting came to a gradual halt, but some Pakistani forces remained in positions on the Indian side of the LOC. In addition, the United Jihad Council (an umbrella for extremist groups) rejected Pakistan's plan for a climb-down, instead deciding to fight on.[62]

The Indian army launched its final attacks in the last week of July; as soon as the Drass subsector had been cleared of Pakistani forces, the fighting ceased on July 26. The day has since been marked as Kargil Vijay Diwas (Kargil Victory Day) in India. By the end of the war, India had resumed control of all territory south and east of the Line of Control, as was established in July 1972 as per the Simla Agreement.

Quoting Wikipedia........1.5 Billion Indians (1/4th the total population of Earth??) and you think your lies or deceit becomes the truth? No nuclear weapons were moved and the American intelligence agencies back in 1998 had no idea about our Nuclear locations, they would have any idea in 2002? Get real and grow up.

The fight ended when fighters were ordered to withdraw and during that retreat we lost more men then we did during the fight. Out of less than 400 martyrs on our side, most were martyred after they disengaged, that's Indian Army to you!

You are the one to talk about someone being used like ***** ... Hint : USA & Pakistan in 1980's and a rerun in 2000's :)

and about carving out Pakistan from India, you guys need to come out of your confusion first. One Pakistani says that there was no India before 1947 and the other says we carved Pakistan out of India in 1947.. Kissi cheez mein to hypocrisy rehne do .. :lol:

What was it called before '47? Hindustan?

By the way when you speak of being used like a *****, we have been used by a super power where as you got used by ...... not even a power, guess you like being gang raped time and again.

Kargil Conflict and Pakistan Air Force
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.A Country Refused to Accept Bodies of It's Soldiers and they were Buried in Kargil By Indian Army. Nothing Shameful Can be for the Army of that Country....People can Thump There Chest.

First of all people need to learn how to write. After that they need to differentiate burials by Indian Army of fighters from Kargil and those shot dead in fake encounters! But what can one expect from a nation that treats their ****** garbage and their dead soldiers alike!
 
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Simple reason is they compromise the indian interests.The difference between you and me is that you see only the movie but i make it.its just an analogy.And yes Engineers can also be better philosopher so i dont agree with ur professor.
Yeah right. Another word play. Thanks for your insight.

BTW I have one question for you, if you hate Indian govt. who kills its own people, have Nazi ideology, why do you use facilities provided by govt. or stay in India.

Why so you pay tax, your bills when the same money is also used against killing of our people by our govt. You uses everything provided to you and you criticize them.

Why do you hate soldiers who protects your nation day and night in 50 degree to -10 degree while you live in your air-conditioned rooms mocking them, clapping on their death? Sorry to say your are no better than these politicians and opportunists.

You make the movie and I see the reality, that's the difference, respected lady.
 
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There were 2 official views and 2 official reports. The military reported that the civilian Government was well aware while the civilian Government declared that they had no idea. Since the military leadership is overall more competent, factual and straight forward as compared to the political leadership it is a safe bet that NS was lying.

Are you aware of the military operation in Karachi during the 90's? It started during NS's Government and lasted his 2 successive Governments yet he claims he had no idea about that operation. This is also the guy who has repeatedly lied about his exile and its terms and what not.

Sorry for the delayed reply i missed your post, My question was NS and Pakistan could have kept the deceit and the lies alive like feigning ignorance of PA's activity by the Government and secondly lying that they were not army but Mujahadeen, if Pakistan would have stood steadfast with the lies then the diplomatic and political pressure could have been withstood and Pakistan could have maintained the act of ignorance to reduce outward pressure - what gave way? the CIA or RAW investigations? then too the administration could have escaped with the customary show us the proof act. There had to be some other theory to Pakistan's complete capitulation.
 
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What was it called before '47? Hindustan?

You tell me dude.. Its Pakistanis who are not able to make up their mind whether they came out of India in 1947 or were established by Qasim in 700 AD.. Let me know when this confusion clears up in your mind and then we can discuss this.. :lol:

By the way when you speak of being used like a *****, we have been used by a super power

Ha Ha.. So thats your excuse for going for a rerun.. That you were violated by a super power and that made it all right :rofl:
 
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Kargil to Kutch - India's shame

Kargil to Kutch - India's shame

After the Washington accord of 4 July 1999, between President Clinton and Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif the possibility of a major conflict in South Asia between India and Pakistan had been avoided. The process of de-escalation had begun. Gradually the Mujahideen started withdrawing from their tactically strong positions astride the heights overlooking IndiaÕs strategic military road supplying her troops in Kargil, Siachin and Leh. The guns started to fall silent and the civilian population returned to their destroyed homes.

But, what remained and could not be erased was IndiaÕs shame and utter discomfiture which could not be logically explained to their public. There was India, a large and powerful country on its way to dominating and controlling South Asia and beyond by force of arms with some support and nods from the West, was unable to eject a few hundred Mujahideen, the Kashmiri freedom fighters from the heights of Kargil inspite of moving a disproportionately large number of troops, guns and fighter aircraft to the area. In repeated attacks India was losing officers and men killed and wounded with hardly any gains to show for the heavy losses. This went on day after day forcing an Indian Colonel in Kargil to remark that Òwe are dying like dogs hereÓ.

To save her standing at home and abroad, in the short time available before her troops were forced to withdraw from their illegal occupation of the Siachin Glacier area, India rushed out for help and appealed to the United States and other countries of the G-8 to come to her aid. It is no secret that she was bailed out by the United States. The G-8 countries were, however, not very specific in their remarks. Having shamelessly pleaded for foreign assistance to help her in Kargil and when it was received and worked in her favour, India, conforming to the role of a cheap local bully, wished to show an aggressive stance in her behaviour towards Pakistan and with regard to Kashmir.

This was done with specific objectives, firstly to raise the sagging morale of her troops, second to show their public that Indian forces had gained a victory in Kargil and third to take advantage of the Kargil episode in the forthcoming general elections in India. The result of this policy was renewed firing across the Line of Control and greater suppression within Indian-held Kashmir. This new Indian aggressive stance travelled from Kargil to the coastal area of the Rann of Kutch where it resulted in the most shameful act perpetuated by IndiaÕs Armed Forces in utter violation of International Law and norms of civilized behaviour attributed to elected governments. Indian Air Force fighter aircraft shot down an unarmed Pakistan Naval aircraft with the loss of 16 lives and total destruction of the aircraft.

After having shot down the unarmed Pakistan Naval plane at about 11 a.m. on 10 August 1999 IndiaÕs actions thereafter were also not honourable and certainly unworthy of the largest democracy in the world. India first announced that the Pakistan Navy aircraft had violated Indian airspace, therefore, it was shot down. India sent in two helicopters to pick up some pieces of the wreckage which were proudly photographed with their Prime Minister outside his office in New Delhi. These were later flashed to the world in an attempt to prove that the plane was shot inside Indian territory.

The Indian Defence Minister, Mr. George Fernandes, in an attempt to justify this unprovoked action made a totally incomprehensible statement, that the Pakistan Naval plane had made a hostile gesture by turning towards the two Indian fighters in a bid to ram them. He wanted the world to believe that a large unarmed propeller driven aircraft could turn towards the faster and armed jet fighters. Surprisingly the same statement was repeated by IndiaÕs High Commissioner (Ambassador) in London while talking to the BBC. The most absurd and irresponsible statement was given by IndiaÕs Air Chief, Air Chief Marshal A. Y. Tipnis, who had rushed to the Indian Naliya Air Base, from where the MiG-21 fighters had taken off to shoot the Pakistan Naval plane. Tipnis told reporters that the Pakistani plane Òhad been on an information gathering mission for a possible waterborne incursion. It was a planned mission to collect ground information. One possibility is that if there were an offensive planned ... the plane might have been spotting for creeks to use, to send in waterborne intrudersÓ. Inspite of all these combined lies India had eventually to admit that the plane was shot down inside Pakistan air space. She did so without batting an eyelid or a word of apology. Perhaps because the Western WorldÕs reaction to IndiaÕs blatant act of aggression was somewhat mild. Instead of blaming India it cautioned both sides. The International Herald Tribune in its editorial on 14-15 August referred to it as Òthe new Indian-Pakistani aerial bumps of the borderÓ. Justice in International Law and Morality may often depend on commercial and other interests and beliefs.

Pakistan NavyÕs French-built Breguet Atlantic airplane had been flying in the area at an altitude of about 7,000 feet for nearly two hours on a training mission. It was clearly visible on the Indian radar screens as a large aircraft during that period. It had an endurance of four hours and would be in its training area for another two hours. It is the opinion of some military experts at home and abroad that the decision to shoot down the unarmed propeller driven slow aircraft within Pakistan territory was finally cleared and authorised by the Indian government in New Delhi. It was an act of infamy which should have been condemned in the strongest terms by the world community.

In accordance with the 1991 Indo-Pakistan air agreement no military aircraft were to fly within 9 kilometers of the international border. But if any aircraft unwittingly strayed across the border, it was to be warned and a complaint lodged with the government and service HQ of the other side. There was no provision for shooting down the aircraft even when it crossed the international border. To do so when the aircraft was within its own airspace, though within the 9 km area of the border, was not justified under any bilateral or international law, India is surely aware of it.

What would happen, I asked a senior officer during my recent trip to Islamabad and Rawalpindi, if a Pakistani submarine was to sink a surface ship of the Indian Navy during their training cruise in the Arabian Sea, pick up some floating debris and claim that the ship was sunk in PakistanÕs territorial waters after it was warned but showed aggressive intent. Later on the truth would emerge but the ship would have been sunk and a clear message sent across the border. There was no comment from the officer except that Pakistan did not wish to escalate the situation any further and instructions had been issued for military aircraft to stay 10 kilometers from the international border.

A good decision which every right thinking person will no doubt applaud. But what is the mood in New Delhi, do they still wish to retrieve their honour further or return to the conference table for a meaningful dialogue to solve all outstanding problems, as the United States President is now urging them to do. India must understand that the problem of Jammu and Kashmir state is the core issue of discontent between the two countries and it must be solved for peace to return to South Asia. It is a disputed territory, recognised as such by the world community and the United Nations.

It is no point India claiming that the state is an integral part of India. The people of Indian-occupied Kashmir have shown by their sacrifices and their 11-year old uprising that they refuse to acknowledge IndiaÕs claim and wish to exercise their right to decide which of the two countries to join - India or Pakistan. A right that is being consistently denied to them. They are held down by force of arms. India has 730,000 army and para-military troops in Kashmir who are using harsh and brutal methods to suppress the people. The only answer is a peaceful settlement in accordance with the wishes of the people of Jammu and Kashmir who have been suffering for the last 52 years.
 
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^^^ the guy's a Ex Pakistani Lt General, so a lop sided view is imminent :lol:- Kargil misadventure was a grand screw up by Pakistan and India made sure that Pakistan paid dearly for it.
 
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