Pak-Iran gas project

[Omar1984]

Good news. Congratulations to all Pakistani and Iranian brothers and sisters.

 

[Hyde]

750mc/per day is a huge gas man........ probably the biggest deal in the history of Pakistan

any chance if china joins the project later on?

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Congradulations to China and Pakistan



May be Bangladesh if we can extend the pipeline form china to Bangladesh some time in future

It would have been great to have india involved but they just ... did an india with us again, wasteful chance to great oppourtunity

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

But the problem with renewable energy is it is still very expensive minus hydropower energy.

There was old report by PPIB (Pakistan Power Infrastructure Board) under President Gen. (retd.) Mushrarraf regime; it discussed how Pakistan has a potential of i believe 40,000 mW hydro Power, out of which the economic hydel power potential was around 20,000 Mw, whereas the existing hydel capacity in operation is/was roundabout 5000MW

with existing water shortages, and other crappy factors im not sure what is the current output

There is no ONE SINGLE solution for Pakistan. This is what Pakistanis must realize. It is multi-pronged approach.

We are a geographically diverse country. Every Province has its own realities and requirements.

Sindh Punjab and Northern Areas need un-interrupted electricity supply for the industry, and for the agriculture (irrigation projects are useless if you cant pump the bloody water)

NWFP/FATA are less densely populated, and get lots of sunlight. A few solar/wind projects would be warranted --- if only security can improve there. World Bank is planning several small dam projects, including one in my native Kurram Agency as it is endowed by fresh water. Theres also plan for water power projects in Azad Kashmir -- 14,000 Mw of potential power production from that alone.

Baluchistan is where gas is cheapest in the country -- dirt cheap. They can use their own gas supply, and this can help create jobs if there is proper investment

Canadians are pretty good at solar energy sector, Chinese are picking up on it. At least our government ministries and municipal buildings and street lamps should be powered by solar power. It'll cost a lot in the short run, but save you in the long run.

Kind of like these new hybrid cars like Toyota Prius

Even the devoloped countries have not able to utilize the renewable energy in large scale except Hydro projects. All Wind, Solar or geothermal power plants are relatively far more expensive than Hydro or Nuclear energy. We are a poor country we cannot rely on Wind or Solar energy at this stage. Sooner or later We will have to rely on Hydro projects to ensure cheaper electricity in our country.

well we can start by not cheating our neighbours; not cheating the power companies.......Pakistani society is part of the problem here. The elite and industrialists are far from being an exception! Even some politicians dont pay their damn utility bills.

It would be a damn good start for us to have some accountability and some responsibility.

Yes, we are a poor (developing) country. We need to use whatever resources we have in most efficient way, without wasting.


I was in Lahore during the hot summer, and I was FUMING angry when I saw that some of the street-lamps are on during the day. People leave the lights on when they leave their rooms; leave all their ACs on.

We just can't do that. That is sloppy, and stupid.

Actually wind or solar plants are not that big in size. You see the turkish company installed i guess 5 plants of 1 megawatt each and projected to install a total of 50MW of electricity by Wind energy. That does not fullfill even 1% of our electricity demands.

it may seem like peanuts, but every contribution makes a difference.

by the way, dear brother each turbine produces 50MW; Projected total capacity would be 250 MW.

We need bigger plants and only Hydro power projects such as Bungi Dam (6000MW - 7000MW) and Diamer Bhasha Dam (4500MW) or Nuclear plants of (300MW or 1000-1600MW designs) can only fullfil the requirements of our electricity.

agha, it is nuclear powerplants which are expensive! We would need to import most, if not all the fuel.

Time to stop relying on fossil energy and make Hydro and Nuclear plants in Pakistan for cheaper electricity

and take advantage of the 180+ billion tonnes of coal @ Thar/Sonda/Lakhra and other mineral rich areas.

Coal energy is very dirty, it will have negative impact on our precious environment. It can pose health risks. Maybe on small scale we can use coal until more sustainable methods are in place. We can put coal to other less harmful uses as well as there exist many non-energy coal-related industries.







in the end, bhai saab, it goes down to FIRM leadership.....and an end to short-sightedness and just not giving a damn.


Potential is all there; resources are there. It is leadership that is lacking; though there are also external reasons behind our supply-demand gap. Lets just pray fuel prices for now remain stable.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

btw, people in FATA get free electricity as long as they dont go beyond a certain quota

(which most dont, given that households dont use much electricity apart from light, one tv and a few paankas here and there)



this trend also needs to be changed; even if some of the people protest.

My ancestral village is in FATA, and even then i will say that this is a stupid policy in Pakistan --even if the people dont use much electricity there.

They should pay for whatever they use, even if it is at slightly subsidized rate

 

[Hyde]

it may seem like peanuts, but every contribution makes a difference.

by the way, dear brother each turbine produces 50MW; Projected total capacity would be 250 MW.

I agree with your post except two statements...

If i am not wrong there are only 2 Wind power projects in Pakistan First is Jhimpir Power Plant and second is Gharo Power Plant.

Zorlu Enerji is reported to have completed five wind turbines in Jhimpir, each capable of producing 1.2 megawatts of electricity. Though initially 6MW of electricity will be produced by the company, the project will be expanded to 50MW in the next few years.

and you can read about gharo power plant from dawn news link

Siemens Pakistan Engineering Company and New Park Energy Limited (NPEL) have signed a contract for the supply of electrical part on turnkey basis for NPEL 50MW wind power project near Gharo.

Wind power plant -DAWN - Business; July 12, 2007

----------------------

I really liked your solution and i will give my input for the permanent solution of our electricity problems in my next post. But one thing is certain we can't solve our problems in a matter of months like Raja Pervez Ashraf always promising. That was just impossible unless private rental plants were not started. The fact is we are lacking like around 5000MW - 7000MW of electricity in our national grid just to fullfil our energy requirements and then 8% energy requirement grows every year. So by the time they will generate 5000MW of electricity we will be requiring another 3000-4000MW of electricity at least. So this problem will never end unless problem not solved with heavy foreign investment and collaborations with international companies. Look at the developed countries in Europe who has the permament solution of this problem for example UK is using around 70% of the electricity from their installed capacity so incase if demand arises they already have the plan to tackle with electricity crisis and they are making plants way before the demand.

In another words currently Pakistan's energy requirements are around 15000MW or 18000MW at peak and they are expected to grow around 35000MW in 2020 and according to one government report 100,000MW in 2030 that is definitely impossible and not going to happen in such a short period.

Now we have installed capacity of around 12000MW and usually we have payment issues with oil companies and hydro plants are also keep getting break-down so we have say around 8000-10,000MW of electricity at any given time. Oh well i will explain all that in my next post

agha, it is nuclear powerplants which are expensive! We would need to import most, if not all the fuel.

Oh well i was refering to Nuclear Energy against Solar or Wind power plants. Look at the chart

 

[IceCold]

btw, people in FATA get free electricity as long as they dont go beyond a certain quota

(which most dont, given that households dont use much electricity apart from light, one tv and a few paankas here and there)



this trend also needs to be changed; even if some of the people protest.

My ancestral village is in FATA, and even then i will say that this is a stupid policy in Pakistan --even if the people dont use much electricity there.

They should pay for whatever they use, even if it is at slightly subsidized rate

People of that area have suffered enough and anything that can bring these people into the mainstream is of help even if that means providing free electricity. You already mentioned that a quota is fixed and within that quota they are given free electricity, sounds perfectly alright to me.

 

[rangbaaz]

that's a very good news. we definitely need to overcome this energy crisis.

 

[sparklingway]

Whenever Hydel Power is mentioned, people fail to realize that sedimentation is major concern as Pakistan is facing the second highest rate globally of sedimentation in dams after Philippines. Major dams not only will kill whatever is left of the mangroves in the Sindh delta, they will further reduce the flow of the one magnificent Indus. (the argument of water being wasted does not apply here)

Run of the river hydel power projects are more expensive but are far suitable for us. PPIB has long been advocating even more reliance on thermal power stations, which is understandably a very costly solution. Even though, the IP gas pipeline will help us reduce the natural gas shortage that we are facing (and which will increase exponentially), nuclear power is the way forward.

If anybody would like to study how a developing country tackles its electricity demands, South Korea is the best model. They have developed an ingenious nuclear power plant capability and have more than 15000MW of nuclear power installed. Hydel power cannot be relied on forever, especially in our case. We don't have a Three Gorges sitting in front of us. Major dams are existing and a bunch of medium size dams surely can be constructed. Hydel as a primary source of electricity is fascinating to many people who are uneducated in this field.

We seriously need to increase nuclear power generation far beyond what we produce today. And we also need to start offering nuclear power engineering at undergrad level in UET Lahore and NED (them being the biggest).

As for solar and wind, solar is the most expensive of all solutions and Zaki's graph clearly shows that. As for wind, we do not have major windy plains but coastal areas can definitely benefit from it. Even then, wind power would require either relying on foreign companies to bring in their high tech ceramics and wind turbines. Nuclear power FTW !!!

 

[Hyde]

Ok now the problem is... Pakistan’s current requirements are around 18000MW at peak (during summer time) or 13,000 – 14,000MW in winter. We have installed capacity of around 14000MW – 15000MW but many of the plants needs refurbishment and some other plants are closed due to payments not received from the government. Some other hydro plants keep getting break down and needs refurbishment too.

Now our energy requirement grows around 8% per year. So that means after every 10 years they will be doubled (200%). So in another words if our current requirements stands at around 18000MW it should be around 35,000MW in 2020. Now installing the plants are not cheap. They always require billions of dollars and Pakistan is also a very poor country so how can we tackle this problem? The problem is we can’t afford billions of dollars in order to sort this matter for good we need around 40 billion dollars at least to be invested in energy sector in next 10-12 years to hold a tight grip on electricity crisis. Or give away energy savers without any tax and at cheapest price you can afford so more electricity can be saved.

Now the idea that comes in my mind all provinces should utilize the local resources first to ensure the cheaper electricity is available to them and sufficient enough to fulfil their requirement. I believe in general sense most of the analysis says that the cheapest energy source is the Hydro power projects followed by the electricity produced in a sizable Nuclear power plants followed by Gas (that is around twice as much expensive as comparing to Nuclear if imported), Furnace Oil (if imported), Coal and then Wind/Solar plants. But again it depends upon the city to city and one project into another and availability of natural resources. That was just a general statement keeping Pakistan only in mind.

For an instance look at this energy comparison



I believe in order to reduce the electricity crisis first we will have to utilize our own resources so let’s start with Sindh first. I believe Sindh is blessed with 175 billion tonnes of coal that is sufficient enough to fulfil our requirements for decades/centuries but again if Sindh is going to export electricity to Punjab or NWFP that is going to cost big money so it is better if we utilize coal only in Sindh or surrounding areas of Punjab and Balochistan. For example we have different proposed projects by International companies from China, South Korea and Germany planning to generate around 12,000MW of electricity. So if most of them receive a green signal the problem for at least one province will be sorted out so the electricity shortfall is automatically going to be decreased. Only few positive steps to improve the infrastructure of local region can enable us to uncap the whole thar deserts for foreign investment.

Oh well its going to be a very long post and i know nobody is going to read it so i finish here by saying Balochistan should utilize their gas for electricity + not all but a portion of gas imported from Iran can be used to generate electricity for Balochistan + if some countries are willing to install Nuclear plants Balochistan can be the perfect place for such projects because of low population and if the appropriate land can be chosen in Balochistan it can definitely install couple of nuclear plants. Punjab and NWFP can generate electricty on Hydro projects thanks to their on going dams projects and in future Solar/Wind power plants can also be installed but we can talk about it later on

I wanted to talk about Bungi Hydro Power project, Diamer bhasha dam, Dasu dam, Neelum Jhelum hydropower project etc + the temporary solution of our problems but i finished writing here because the length of this post is worrying me and i think nobody is going to read it now

 

[Hyde]

Whenever Hydel Power is mentioned, people fail to realize that sedimentation is major concern as Pakistan is facing the second highest rate globally of sedimentation in dams after Philippines. Major dams not only will kill whatever is left of the mangroves in the Sindh delta, they will further reduce the flow of the one magnificent Indus. (the argument of water being wasted does not apply here)

Run of the river hydel power projects are more expensive but are far suitable for us. PPIB has long been advocating even more reliance on thermal power stations, which is understandably a very costly solution. Even though, the IP gas pipeline will help us reduce the natural gas shortage that we are facing (and which will increase exponentially), nuclear power is the way forward.

If anybody would like to study how a developing country tackles its electricity demands, South Korea is the best model. They have developed an ingenious nuclear power plant capability and have more than 15000MW of nuclear power installed. Hydel power cannot be relied on forever, especially in our case. We don't have a Three Gorges sitting in front of us. Major dams are existing and a bunch of medium size dams surely can be constructed. Hydel as a primary source of electricity is fascinating to many people who are uneducated in this field.

We seriously need to increase nuclear power generation far beyond what we produce today. And we also need to start offering nuclear power engineering at undergrad level in UET Lahore and NED (them being the biggest).

As for solar and wind, solar is the most expensive of all solutions and Zaki's graph clearly shows that. As for wind, we do not have major windy plains but coastal areas can definitely benefit from it. Even then, wind power would require either relying on foreign companies to bring in their high tech ceramics and wind turbines. Nuclear power FTW !!!

i fully agree with you but the problem is who is going to provide us nuclear plants trust me there is no better solution than Nuclear plants now a days. We hear every now and then that 1MW plant installed somewhere in Pakistan, sometimes 100MW plant installed somewhere in Pakistan and sometimes even 20-25MW plants installed though the contribute in the national grid and help reduce the short fall but we need something big now like 10X 1000MW of Nuclear plants and that will also ensure the cheap and guaranteed electricity for our country unlike Hydro which can be damaged if India blocks our water or the electricity we generate from expensive oil. Look at Japan now who is far Less than half of our size and blessed with plenty of water too but they are heavily relying on Nuclear. If i am not wrong they have installed capaciy of around 50,000MW only on Nuclear Similar is the case for USA, France and South Korea

 

[rangbaaz]

why doesn't government take any initiative in this sector? don't they listen to engineers and scientists or do they just ignore them? what's the problem?

 

[sparklingway]

The decision was to form a "China-Pakistan Power Plant Corporation" way back in 2008. As usual we're relying on China for everything. Ingeniousness solutions are necessary if we want to keep the long term costs down. However we try to convince ourselves that we are "great" in the nuclear sector, sadly our industry hasn't geared up for local production of turbines and have been addicted to importing it. Pakistan Nuclear Power Fuel Complex has been set up to increase yield for reactor grade uranium though. If we are to increase our reliance on nuclear power, we would have to increase the capacity of PAEC beyond what it is and PAEC will have to change towards being more of a power generation company than what it has been traditionally.

Let's hope KANUPP-II and CHASNUPP-2 go well ahead of plan and get on the grid soon.

why doesn't government take any initiative in this sector? don't they listen to engineers and scientists or do they just ignore them? what's the problem?

They listen and they are implementing. Unfortunately, nuclear power plants take as much time as hydel power plants to be set up. Thermal Power Plants can be set up real quick.

There's a slight problem with nuclear power, palm rubbing is far less prevalent because you can't rake bribes within government institutions though (MoWP taking bribes from PAEC, lolz).

 

[Hyde]

The decision was to form a "China-Pakistan Power Plant Corporation" way back in 2008. As usual we're relying on China for everything. Ingeniousness solutions are necessary if we want to keep the long term costs down. However we try to convince ourselves that we are "great" in the nuclear sector, sadly our industry hasn't geared up for local production of turbines and have been addicted to importing it. Pakistan Nuclear Power Fuel Complex has been set up to increase yield for reactor grade uranium though. If we are to increase our reliance on nuclear power, we would have to increase the capacity of PAEC beyond what it is and PAEC will have to change towards being more of a power generation company than what it has been traditionally.

Let's hope KANUPP-II and CHASNUPP-2 go well ahead of plan and get on the grid soon.



They listen and they are implementing. Unfortunately, nuclear power plants take as much time as hydel power plants to be set up. Thermal Power Plants can be set up real quick.

There's a slight problem with nuclear power, palm rubbing is far less prevalent because you can't rake bribes within government institutions though (MoWP taking bribes from PAEC, lolz).

Agree yaar and i always wonder we were able to design a small Nuclear plant of 50 MW back in 1980s so after 3 decades have passed why can't we produce a little bigger plant now?

Its annoying yaar after these CHASHNUP-2 and Chashnup-3 we should try to design a similar reactor indeniously and seek chinese help for the bigger design of 1000MW instead

Agar itna bhi naa kar sakain to sharam ki baat hai

 

[rangbaaz]

why don't they just buy plants rather constructing themselves?