PAK-FA takes to the sky!

[Chanakyaa]

Didn't you know? The Russians are stupid and need the Indians to teach them about composites, cockpit design and avionics. Makes you wonder how they managed to compete with the Americans all these decades on their own...

Mate as i said earlier, its true that as far as PAKFA is concerned India would be at the receivers end.

BUT, Starting late never means u cant get ahead.
Indians have achieved a much Cheaper Space Launch systems - PSLV .. its one of the most Reliable and the cheapest with 16 successful flights.

Russians are ahead of us, but all those talks of India being a Super power are not entirely a myth atleast when Obama Says - India a Global Nuclear Power.
We have at least Something if not Everything. That "Something" too is rare ... how many economies in SA are growing at 8% in this recession era ?

Without a working engine, it's mostly an impotent machine.

Mate, The GE404 is already in India and the First Batch of LCA will be equipped with it.

By the time First Batch rolls out, The Deal on EJ or the GE414 will be done so Next versions of LCA I and II will have a confirmed Engine.

Later, Kaveri will replace these once its development is over. This is being perused separately.

 

[gogbot]

Didn't you know? The Russians are stupid and need the Indians to teach them about composites, cockpit design and avionics. Makes you wonder how they managed to compete with the Americans all these decades on their own...

Oh so China was stupid they need Pak Help to make JF-17.
Your logic is Both Belittling and wrong.

Everyone knows India IS junior partner.
But even India has Area where it can Compere Internationally in.
There are A few things we can offer to the Project. Our success in Carbon Composites is just one of them.

Without a working engine, it's mostly an impotent machine.

Specifications (HAL Tejas) MK-1

Performance

* Powerplant: 1× General Electric F404-GE-IN20 turbofan
o Dry thrust: 53.9 kN (11,250 lbf)
o Thrust with afterburner: 85 kN (19,100 lbf)

* Max takeoff weight: 14,500 kg (31,967 lb)

* Internal fuel capacity: 3000 liters

* External fuel capacity: 5×800 liter tanks or 3×1,200 liter tanks, totaling 4,000/3,600 liters


* Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 (2,376+ km/h at high altitude) at 15,000 m

* Range: 2000 km (1,840 mi (without refueling))

* Service ceiling: 16,500 m (54,000 ft (engine re-igniter safely capable))

* Wing loading: 221.4 kg/m² (45.35 lb/ft²)

* Thrust/weight: 1.02

Specifications (JF-17/FC-1)

Performance

* Max takeoff weight: 12,700 kg (28,000 lb)

* Powerplant: 1× Klimov RD-93 turbofan
o Dry thrust: 49.4 kN (11,106 lbf)
o Thrust with afterburner: 84.4 kN (18,973 lbf)

* Internal Fuel Capacity: 2300 kg (5,130 lb)


* Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 (1,191 knots, 2,205 kph)

* Combat radius: 1,352 km (840 mi)

* Ferry range: 3,000 km (2,175 mi)

* Service ceiling: 16,700 m (54,790 ft)

* Thrust/weight: 0.99

For a Plane with No engine it Performs really well don't you think.
Not to mention the High rate of Climb and the Lowest RCS for non stealth fighter.

 

[zombie]

So we pay then cash to develop a plane, that they will then sell to us.


Come dude, The Russian Negotiation stand point is exactly what you mentioned there. But India has other Idea's. That's why the Deal is till going through Negotiations.



Asia Times Online :: South Asia news - India, Russia still brothers in arms

Your selling our guys short. India will Participate on the design Modifications of the PAK-FA to be made the FGFA. As well The Indian Version will use a lot more composite materials then the PAK-FA. Making it lighter Whist still being a Double seater.

Indian Aviation Industry Will learn a lot from its Russian Counterpart.
In TOT and design Techniques.

yet India still wants more.



We are also trying to get Russian Secrets of Engine Design.

Believe me MoD are trying to get as much as it can from this Deal
The Pre-longed Negotiation period alone shows you, GoiG is not just signing what ever the Russians put in front of them.

The design was completed long back. What is there to negotiate on now? As you said the negotiations are still going on and the first post of this thread is that the plane is already making its test run with the engines.

India wanted to work on the Mig version of 5th gen fighter so it could participate in early stages but Russia said it would follow Suhkois design that was almost already completed.

Ofcourse the Sukhoi chief will say that. What else he is supposed to say? But what is that India can offer that Russia doesnt know. Like I said some material and some part of avionics maybe(besides the cash)[Your post confirms it in fact-thx for the link]. Can India decide the engine? The body layout? The radar? The test bed? The stealth technology(not some ram paint)? Cmon please be realistic. Its like asking SriLanka to enter into LCA developent with us and expecting 50-50 partenership.

As far as engine design ToT goes. I think you already know problems with our Kaveri engine. If we are so good at incorportaing engine design know how lets first make RD-33 and AL-31 no? Do we have the capability to make them and modify/improve them?
We use Migs and Sukhoi's no..wouldnt developing and modifying engines for that be useful.

So they are gonna make one-two seater versions different for India and Russia? So it doesnt change anything..Cant their designers make a few adjustments for a customer.

I'm not selling our guys short. Just being realistic over all this nonsense fed to us that we lap up in eagerness being defense enthusiasts and well wishers.

I we really had a vision we would invest on
1)Engine test bed
2)design transfer and development/modification for the RD-33 and AL-31 engines and develop new versions from it.

That 5 billion would be more worthwhile invested in these and we would have left over for other things. Ofcourse this doesnt look all that glamorous compared to 5th gen blah blah

 

[Red Dwarf]

Why India needs a two seater aircraft ?. I heard that majority of the airforce prefers single seater.

If the design is already completed, then if India needs a two seater, is the design need to be changed again ?. Also is there any possibility that a stealth aircraft with two seater might increase the RCS.

 

[zombie]

Why India needs a two seater aircraft ?. I heard that majority of the airforce prefers single seater.

If the design is already completed, then if India needs a two seater, is the design need to be changed again ?. Also is there any possibility than a stealth aircraft with two seater might increase the RCS.

RD, India uses Su-30mki which is 2-seater. Most of the guys who go to this FGFA would most prob be ex Su-30mki pilots.

Moreover its not a big design change for 2 seater for Russia. Remember even if only for single seater development they would create a two seater for training purposes. From that to a proper 2 seater version is not far off.

 

[Chanakyaa]

RD, India uses Su-30mki which is 2-seater. Most of the guys who go to this FGFA would most prob be ex Su-30mki pilots.

Moreover its not a big design change for 2 seater for Russia. Remember even if only for single seater development they would create a two seater for training purposes. From that to a proper 2 seater version is not far off.

PAKFA will be much lighter than MKI.
I dont think it will be wise that PAKFA pilots should be ExMKI Pilots.

It takes time to master the plane . at least a decade when u mature with the platform.
Indian have just started maturing with MKI Now if these pilots are sent for FGFA squadrons, then their experience of MKI is all wasted since they will have to start from zero.

Mind it, that even a Mig21 Expert Pilot can give MKI a tough fight .. the very reason why you cannot underestimate PAF F16s as they have much more experance of F16s Platform than we have on Mirages or MKIs.
The Technological superiority is not everything as demonstrated in Vietnam.

 

[gogbot]

The design was completed long back. What is there to negotiate on now? As you said the negotiations are still going on and the first post of this thread is that the plane is already making its test run with the engines.

India wanted to work on the Mig version of 5th gen fighter so it could participate in early stages but Russia said it would follow Suhkois design that was almost already completed.

Ofcourse the Sukhoi chief will say that. What else he is supposed to say? But what is that India can offer that Russia doesnt know. Like I said some material and some part of avionics maybe(besides the cash)[Your post confirms it in fact-thx for the link]. Can India decide the engine? The body layout? The radar? The test bed? The stealth technology(not some ram paint)? Cmon please be realistic. Its like asking SriLanka to enter into LCA developent with us and expecting 50-50 partenership.

As far as engine design ToT goes. I think you already know problems with our Kaveri engine. If we are so good at incorportaing engine design know how lets first make RD-33 and AL-31 no? Do we have the capability to make them and modify/improve them?
We use Migs and Sukhoi's no..wouldnt developing and modifying engines for that be useful.

So they are gonna make one-two seater versions different for India and Russia? So it doesnt change anything..Cant their designers make a few adjustments for a customer.

I'm not selling our guys short. Just being realistic over all this nonsense fed to us that we lap up in eagerness being defense enthusiasts and well wishers.

I we really had a vision we would invest on
1)Engine test bed
2)design transfer and development/modification for the RD-33 and AL-31 engines and develop new versions from it.

That 5 billion would be more worthwhile invested in these and we would have left over for other things. Ofcourse this doesnt look all that glamorous compared to 5th gen blah blah

dude what the hell ?

Did u even read the stuff i posted

The FGFA is a plane That we choose. we set the requirements and we picked the engine. We Can modify The plane just as much as the MKI.
In fact more than that. It will be made in India. Its practically ours but Designed by the Russians. This JV is very Similar to the BHAMOS project. The FGFA will be as Indian as that. We will have as much TOT and Intellectual property as That JV.

Seriously what your saying is as good as us buying something from Russia. with no TOT.

 

[gogbot]

Why India needs a two seater aircraft ?. I heard that majority of the airforce prefers single seater.

If the design is already completed, then if India needs a two seater, is the design need to be changed again ?. Also is there any possibility that a stealth aircraft with two seater might increase the RCS.

Long range strategic bombing Missions. and IAF also seems to Prefer the 2 pilot System.

also This Makes Multi tasking Much more easy for Pilots as the work load is now Shared.
F-22 pilots are considered Operators as the sheer amount of Tasks they have to do is more then the actual Piloting.

The Increase in RCS is very minor.

I wont effect Its Stealth capability.

Also there is the Manpower issue with having a 2 pilot platform.
where lets say We need 400 pilots to Operate 200 MKI
We could Have had 400 pilots operating 400 planes alternatively.
Making it more expensive and difficult to maintain.
So most others choose the Single seater platofrms

 

[zombie]

dude what the hell ?

Did u even read the stuff i posted

The FGFA is a plane That we choose. we set the requirements and we picked the engine. We Can modify The plane just as much as the MKI.
In fact more than that. It will be made in India. Its practically ours but Designed by the Russians. This JV is very Similar to the BHAMOS project. The FGFA will be as Indian as that. We will have as much TOT and Intellectual property as That JV.

Seriously what your saying is as good as us buying something from Russia. with no TOT.

What you posted and what I said is not much different. The difference being your making out that FGFA is something completely different which it is not.

I said India's contribution will be largely material(composites) and some avionics. This is what HAL chairman said.

According to HAL chairman A.K. Baweja on 16 September 2008, HAL will be contributing largely to composites, cockpits and avionics.

I said Indian version and Russion version is pretty much the same plance except for some minor changes. This is what the Russian minister said.

By February 2009 as per Sukhoi general director Mikhail Pogosyan India will initially get the same PAK FA fighter of Russia and the only difference will be the software.

I made a couple of statements which are completely vindicated by your own references by the top two folks in this development.

In fact more than that. It will be made in India. Its practically ours but Designed by the Russians.

Do you see the problem in this. What exactly is ours in this please tell me. The test bed? The engine? The body design? the radar? You have 95% of the plane development right there.

This JV is very Similar to the BHAMOS project.

You are too naive brother. In fact it will be much less than the brahmos and even the brahmos is not a great example for tot and you know that. Do we have the brahmos engine design after all these years?

I dont think you need reference for this right? You know the story.

Why didnt India buy the design? Why is Russia refusing to transfer the tech? Why the scientists werent able to reverse engineer after all these years? Heck we recently even had some problems in tech transfer of that stupid T-90. Can India make a brahmos like missile(similar speeds) on its own now after all these years?

Comming to the simple needs first. Why we lack this after all these years?
1)Engine test bed
2)design transfer and development/modification for the RD-33 and AL-31 engines and develop new versions from it.

 

[zombie]

Seriously what your saying is as good as us buying something from Russia. with no TOT

Look when you say ToT you have to be crystal clear on which tech we are after? Then ask questions like
a) What level are we at now on this?
b) Do we have the current version of this tech atleast now?
c) If not what can be done to get that?
d) Do we have the manufacturing capability to produce the current tech version in large scale? If not build that first.
e) Is there a cheaper way to get the current tech?
f) Shouldnt we be first deploying systems developed with current tech, designed and manufactured by ourselves 100% before moving to next version?
g) Is there a way to only buy design

Do u think our guys have asked/answered all these questions that even lower management guys in private sector would ask.

 

[gogbot]

What you posted and what I said is not much different. The difference being your making out that FGFA is something completely different which it is not.

I said India's contribution will be largely material(composites) and some avionics. This is what HAL chairman said.


I said Indian version and Russion version is pretty much the same plance except for some minor changes. This is what the Russian minister said.


I made a couple of statements which are completely vindicated by your own references by the top two folks in this development.

Do you see the problem in this. What exactly is ours in this please tell me. The test bed? The engine? The body design? the radar? You have 95% of the plane development right there.

You are too naive brother. In fact it will be much less than the brahmos and even the brahmos is not a great example for tot and you know that. Do we have the brahmos engine design after all these years?

I dont think you need reference for this right? You know the story.

Why didnt India buy the design? Why is Russia refusing to transfer the tech? Why the scientists werent able to reverse engineer after all these years? Heck we recently even had some problems in tech transfer of that stupid T-90. Can India make a brahmos like missile(similar speeds) on its own now after all these years?

Comming to the simple needs first. Why we lack this after all these years?
1)Engine test bed
2)design transfer and development/modification for the RD-33 and AL-31 engines and develop new versions from it.

By February 2009 as per Sukhoi general director Mikhail Pogosyan India will initially get the same PAK FA fighter of Russia and the only difference will be the software.

Key word Initially. This is Until the FGFA is Completed.

The difference between PAK FA and the FGFA will be similar to that between Su-30MK and Su-30MKI. Su-30MK is the commercial version of the Russian Su-30M, whereas the Su-30MKI (MKI stands for "Modernizirovannyi Kommercheskiy Indiski" meaning "Modernized Commercial India".) jointly-developed with India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited for the Indian Air Force. Includes Thrust Vectoring Control (TVC) and canards. Equipped with a multi-national avionics complex sourced from India, Israel, Russia and France.

The PAK FA and the FGFA will be having minimum of common technology. Further the FGFA will be predominantly using weapons of Indian origin such as Astra, a Beyond Visual Range missile being developed by India, although in keeping with the Russian BVR doctrine of using a vast variety of different missiles for versatility and unpredictability to countermeasures, can be expected to have compatibility with many different missile loadouts. The Indian FGFA is significantly different from the Russian PAK FA because a second pilot means the addition of another dimension, development of wings and control surfaces.

Defence Aviation - Sukhoi/HAL FGFA a Indian Stealth Fighter

As for

Comming to the simple needs first. Why we lack this after all these years?
1)Engine test bed
2)design transfer and development/modification for the RD-33 and AL-31 engines and develop new versions from it.

The PAK FA will Use 2× Saturn-Lyulka AL-41F turbofan

whilst India wants to Use

According to HAL chairman A.K. Baweja on 16 September 2008, HAL will be contributing largely to composites, cockpits and avionics. HAL is working to enter into a joint development mechanism with Russia for the evolution of the FGFA engine as an upward derivative of the AL-37.

The difference being your making out that FGFA is something completely different which it is not

That's the entire reason for Initiating the JV. Trying to make the FGFA variant as Different As possible.

HAL will be handling the service of the plane. Russia will have as Minimal Involvement as Possible.

We have no engine test bed as the FGFA development has yet to start. After the PAK-FA takes it s test flight. work on the FGFA will begin latter after that. Given that No two seater variant was PLanned.
None exists as of yet. Not even A design for A 2 seater variant is Available.
When development begins India will get a Test Bed
The FGFA wont even fly till 2012 at the best case scenario.

We are not involved in the development of the PAk-FA. But the FGFA specifically.

 

[shravan]

We are not involved in the development of the PAk-FA.

Indian Stealth Technology & Composites on both versions.

 

[gogbot]

Indian Stealth Technology & Composites on both versions.

PAK-FA design is frozen

we cant contribute anything.

and i seriously doubt we have stealth Tech

 

[Chanakyaa]

Indian Stealth Technology & Composites on both versions.

Since the design was over when we stepped in; definately the airframe was also done.
Indian stealth, if u refer to LCA is limited to absorber Paint and Reduced RCS airframe both of which are very less significant
( Design Over so we dont contribute to Airframe and the plane will use much advanced stealth options like internal weapons bay. )

Thus PAKFA will not have indian composites.

But as gogbot said, things could be different for FGFA, but i doubt it will involve our composites which translates to complete airframe redisign.

We contribute in Softwares, avionics, self defence module and weapons especially in FGFA.

 

[gogbot]

Since the design was over when we stepped in; definately the airframe was also done.
Indian stealth, if u refer to LCA is limited to absorber Paint and Reduced RCS airframe both of which are very less significant
( Design Over so we dont contribute to Airframe and the plane will use much advanced stealth options like internal weapons bay. )

Thus PAKFA will not have indian composites.

But as gogbot said, things could be different for FGFA, but i doubt it will involve our composites which translates to complete airframe redisign.

We contribute in Softwares, avionics, self defence module and weapons especially in FGFA.

For The last time the FGFA is a redesign of the Airframe.

According to HAL chairman A.K. Baweja on 16 September 2008, HAL will be contributing largely to composites, cockpits and avionics.

We have set a Number of requirements that Mean the Airframe already needs to Be adjusted and tweaked. So we can modify it as we need.

Foremost is the 2 pilot configuration

Also The FGFA is planned to be lighter as revealed during the MAKS 09

Contrary to the intense pre-show hype about Russia lifting the curtains off its long-awaited 22.5-tonne PAK-FA fifth-generation multi-role combat aircraft and the first definitive MiG-35UBK tandem-seat prototype (from United Aircraft Corp’s Nizhny Novgorod-based Sokol Aircraft Factory), no such event eventually took place. Instead, what was showcased were a smaller number of new-generation precision-guided munitions (PGM), and avionics for the PAK-FA and its 16.5-tonne variant, the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA).

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/25061-indo-russian-pak-fa-fgfa-14.html#post476301
(i cant find the old ruski article)

India wants to use more composites to lower the weight.

There is some legitimate design work involved.