Pak army general says India carrying out BAT attacks on Pakistani side of LoC

[punit]

An excellent demonstration of how to 'quote'. Thank you; it will be instructive for younger members.

U should adopt @war&peace

There is no deployment of civilians along with Army on LOC for any purpose let along carrying out cross border raids.
Crica 1950's there was deployment of irregulars along with PA known as "Mujahids" later they were regularized and are known as Mujahid Battalions only their difference with other units is that,bulk of their manpower is drawn from border districts and they are not rotated into all over Pakistan.

Term is solely brain child of Indian Media.

Mukti Bahni's won't agree.

@Joe Shearer Pakistan Army has no shoratge of young men ready to carry out very risky jobs without hesitation.With almost 60% of population composition of young blood PA is no short of man power.Inviting and training civilians for that purpose is very risky.

Pakistani army was not involved in kargil ...Right ? They were motivated civilians hell bent on liberating kashmir.!! Right ?

 

[Sine Nomine]

Unfortunately, the majority of JeM operatives, even today, are civilians from Pakistan.

JeM is dead.

I respect your opinion, although it differs from what is known about the term.

You can tell me,because there is no such unit as BAT.

However I was specifically referring to civilians recruited elsewhere, trained near the LOC and infiltrated into India, who have been linked to these Border Action Teams.

PA has never recruited civilians for that purpose and apart from media rhetoric that is non existant thing.I am sure a training facility for training people's in asymmetric warfare would be visable to eyes up in sky.

Please note the very careful phrasing of my response.

One coin two sides.

P.S: How's your health?

 

[war&peace]

U should adopt @war&peace

Adopt what?

 

[Joe Shearer]

U should adopt @war&peace


Pakistani army was not involved in kargil ...Right ? They were motivated civilians hell bent on liberating kashmir.!! Right ?

As I understand it, there was a militia force called the Northern Light Infantry, constituted of local residents of Gilgit-Baltistan, who formed the bulk of the infiltrators in the abandoned bunkers.

After the debacle, the survivors were elevated to formal regimental status.

The concocted story that they were civilians with no contact with the Army did not last even for weeks.

JeM is dead.

You can tell me,because there is no such unit as BAT.

PA has never recruited civilians for that purpose and apart from media rhetoric that is non existant thing.I am sure a training facility for training people's in asymmetric warfare would be visable to eyes up in sky.

One coin two sides.

P.S: How's your health?

PA has never recruited civilians for that purpose and apart from media rhetoric that is non existant thing

It is not the case that the PA recruited them. There are three terrorist organisations operating in Indian administered Kashmir, and these three recruit young men, train them and infiltrate them.

However, the Pakistan Army helps these organisations by assisting the effort to send these young men across the border/LOC.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I am much better now, compared to my physical and mental condition in late October/ early November.

 

[Sine Nomine]

It is not the case that the PA recruited them. There are three terrorist organisations operating in Indian administered Kashmir, and these three recruit young men, train them and infiltrate them.

However, the Pakistan Army helps these organisations by assisting the effort to send these young men across the border/LOC.

We can go on debating this for weeks with no end result.

I am much better now, compared to my physical and mental condition in late October/ early November.

May you get healthy and live long.

 

[punit]

As I understand it, there was a militia force called the Northern Light Infantry, constituted of local residents of Gilgit-Baltistan, who formed the bulk of the infiltrators in the abandoned bunkers.

After the debacle, the survivors were elevated to formal regimental status.

The concocted story that they were civilians with no contact with the Army did not last even for weeks.






It is not the case that the PA recruited them. There are three terrorist organisations operating in Indian administered Kashmir, and these three recruit young men, train them and infiltrate them.

However, the Pakistan Army helps these organisations by assisting the effort to send these young men across the border/LOC.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I am much better now, compared to my physical and mental condition in late October/ early November.

NLI was also a cover. Soldiers from regular regiments were deputed to NLI for kargil operation. ( please correct me if this is a regular practice).

One example : Karnal Sher Khan ( Nishan-e-Haider) was a captain in the 27th Sindh Regiment of the Pakistan Army. He was sent to NLI before kargil.

 

[Joe Shearer]

NLI was also a cover. Soldiers from regular regiments were deputed to NLI for kargil operation. ( please correct me if this is a regular practice).

One example : Karnal Sher Khan ( Nishan-e-Haider) was a captain in the 27th Sindh Regiment of the Pakistan Army. He was sent to NLI before kargil.

My understanding is that a certain proportion of officers from regular organisations were posted to the NLI. But this related to the officers alone.

 

[Sine Nomine]

My understanding is that a certain proportion of officers from regular organisations were posted to the NLI. But this related to the officers alone.

That's true auxiliaries are always having deputed officers from PA.

 

[Joe Shearer]

We can go on debating this for weeks with no end result.

May you get healthy and live long.

My thanks for your good wishes.

That's true auxiliaries are always having deputed officers from PA.

@punit

The equivalence of the former Northern Light Infantry and the recent Mujahedin Regiment is the Indian Territorial Army, or the Assam Rifles (not the Assam Regiment), or the Eastern Frontier Rifles. However, only the first two, the TA and the Assam Rifles have officers deputed to these by the Army.

 

[valkyr_96]

My thanks for your good wishes.



@punit

The equivalence of the former Northern Light Infantry and the recent Mujahedin Regiment is the Indian Territorial Army, or the Assam Rifles (not the Assam Regiment), or the Eastern Frontier Rifles. However, only the first two, the TA and the Assam Rifles have officers deputed to these by the Army.

I hope you are referring to the Mujahid Force Regiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahid_Force_Regiment. It is anything but recent and and your slip seems deliberate as has been seen in the Indian media and numerous post made by Indian members here before it morphed it so called Border Action Teams.

 

[Hellfire]

I understand that this is a term for a combined detachment of regular soldiers and what some are pleased to term 'mujahids'. Such civilians bearing arms and attacking another country do not exist in India; certainly, they are not to be found in the vicinity of the Army. So as far as functionality goes, it is a Pakistani phrase.

As for the phrase itself, it might be argued that while the concept is wholly Pakistani, the phrase might have been coined by Indians. That is certainly possible, except that I have no information of it having happened so.

@hellfire

Sir.

Absolutely as above. Only one difference, the BAT as a concept was first noticed somewhere in late 90s-early 2000s in the lexicon of intercepts made, if I recall correctly. We do not have concept of BAT in IA but of MOST. So, that should put to rest the origins of the concept.

Both remain offshoots of the 'small team, big impact' philosophy, more so in the LC context. By the time IK Gujral assumed the leadership, the back of the foreign (read Afghan led) militants was broken. His 'overtures' at peace resulted in orders for Indian Army to be scaled down and the primary responsibility of CI operations to be handed over to the CAPFs and JKP, albeit for a short but significant time period. The foolishness of the move can be assessed from the spike in violence that resulted as there was a 'security' vacuum that was created.

A subsequent increased level of forward posturing by the IA as it took over posts held by BSF at certain points till then and BSF was brought in alignment with the overall IA plan and not permitted to act (more often not) of own accord, resulted in a severe strain on the supply routes for sustaining the logistics of running an insurgency. To facilitate the movement, SSG created small teams concept, the BAT, with twofold aims:

a. To create pressure on forward and early warning elements of the Indian Security Forces along the LC.
b. To potentiate psychological impact created out of small profile/silhouette, hard hitting, highly mobile forces (in simpleton terms 'hit & run') that appear to strike at will with addendum incidents of mutilation (an old occurrence for decades by either side) publicized to boost morale of the militants and demoralize the Indian security personnel along LC.

There is no deployment of civilians along with Army on LOC for any purpose let along carrying out cross border raids.

I agree with your point here.

The PA takes care not to allow a launch pad/bivouac in its location or that of it's forward localities. Instead, the launch pads are in near proximity, anywhere between 150 to 500 meters, depending on the positions of PA. Anecdotal evidence has suggested that the PA follows this to limit interaction between the militants (oft radicalized on lines of religion to fight jihad) and their own soldiers, to obviate the possibility of ancillary affectations. Equally amusing remains the propensity to overlook the obvious - the soldiers and the militants are being representative of the same set of population in general, the steps remain at odds with the intent.

@Joe Shearer I had explained it earlier on thread too .. the concept of Tanzeem Commander - Launch Commander - ISI interface to liaise with the PA post(s) and the indirect support in terms of Intelligence from Thermal Imagers/Surveillance grid/UAVs and/or covering fire on (nowadays) or over Indian Posts (as observed in aftermath of 2003 agreement)

JeM is dead.

I would refer to the situation as more of agonal respiration.

You can tell me,because there is no such unit as BAT.

Absolutely agreed. There is no unit as such. Any claim to contrary is pure ignorance. But it is a small unit concept. May have metamorphised into some new term.

I hope you are referring to the Mujahid Force Regiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahid_Force_Regiment. It is anything but recent and and your slip seems deliberate as has been seen in the Indian media and numerous post made by Indian members here before it morphed it so called Border Action Teams.

Then you would be wise not to follow them and take their words as Gospel Truth. They neither understand the concept of BAT, nor have any clue of the same.

Cheers

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sir.

Absolutely as above. Only one difference, the BAT as a concept was first noticed somewhere in late 90s-early 2000s in the lexicon of intercepts made, if I recall correctly. We do not have concept of BAT in IA but of MOST. So, that should put to rest the origins of the concept.

Both remain offshoots of the 'small team, big impact' philosophy, more so in the LC context. By the time IK Gujral assumed the leadership, the back of the foreign (read Afghan led) militants was broken. His 'overtures' at peace resulted in orders for Indian Army to be scaled down and the primary responsibility of CI operations to be handed over to the CAPFs and JKP, albeit for a short but significant time period. The foolishness of the move can be assessed from the spike in violence that resulted as there was a 'security' vacuum that was created.

A subsequent increased level of forward posturing by the IA as it took over posts held by BSF at certain points till then and BSF was brought in alignment with the overall IA plan and not permitted to act (more often not) of own accord, resulted in a severe strain on the supply routes for sustaining the logistics of running an insurgency. To facilitate the movement, SSG created small teams concept, the BAT, with twofold aims:

a. To create pressure on forward and early warning elements of the Indian Security Forces along the LC.
b. To potentiate psychological impact created out of small profile/silhouette, hard hitting, highly mobile forces (in simpleton terms 'hit & run') that appear to strike at will with addendum incidents of mutilation (an old occurrence for decades by either side) publicized to boost morale of the militants and demoralize the Indian security personnel along LC.



I agree with your point here.

The PA takes care not to allow a launch pad/bivouac in its location or that of it's forward localities. Instead, the launch pads are in near proximity, anywhere between 150 to 500 meters, depending on the positions of PA. Anecdotal evidence has suggested that the PA follows this to limit interaction between the militants (oft radicalized on lines of religion to fight jihad) and their own soldiers, to obviate the possibility of ancillary affectations. Equally amusing remains the propensity to overlook the obvious - the soldiers and the militants are being representative of the same set of population in general, the steps remain at odds with the intent.

@Joe Shearer I had explained it earlier on thread too .. the concept of Tanzeem Commander - Launch Commander - ISI interface to liaise with the PA post(s) and the indirect support in terms of Intelligence from Thermal Imagers/Surveillance grid/UAVs and/or covering fire on (nowadays) or over Indian Posts (as observed in aftermath of 2003 agreement)



I would refer to the situation as more of agonal respiration.



Absolutely agreed. There is no unit as such. Any claim to contrary is pure ignorance. But it is a small unit concept. May have metamorphised into some new term.




Then you would be wise not to follow them and take their words as Gospel Truth. They neither understand the concept of BAT, nor have any clue of the same.

Cheers

Thank you for the amplification. I was like the cat i'the adage, letting 'I dare not' wait upon 'I will', as far as asking for your help is concerned.

 

[Aryan0395]

in a book authored by Indian? seems totally legit

author is quoting general of record here. If general didnt say any of that he can file a case against author. i dont see him doing that or raising any objections.

 

[Hellfire]

Thank you for the amplification. I was like the cat i'the adage, letting 'I dare not' wait upon 'I will', as far as asking for your help is concerned.

Sir.

It is becoming increasingly difficult to post here for the fact that the majority, the overwhelming majority, do not want to learn or understand. The words of Issac Asimov resound louder day by day, for me. '...... my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'

I had always used a specific term 'militant'. I had never used a term 'terrorist' for anyone who was fighting in Kashmir because of one specific reason, that the majority of acts till date were limited to Police, Paramilitary, Governmental and then only Army targets.

With the policy which we have discussed away from the public glare, in the aftermath of Burhan Wani elimination and my asking people to reflect on why he needed to be eliminated then, when we could have done so anytime in past 5 years, coming to fruition , the term terrorist has become pre-dominant and now synonymous.

The most amusing (my ironic view) point here remains that our champions here have played exactly into the policy I averred to when I used to give the example of permissive attitude towards Ahl-e-Hadith. The long term implications were either never appreciated or were ignored by both the Kashmiris and Pakistanis, believing in their own delusion that Indian politicians and security experts are a bunch of nincompoops.

With a weak economy, Pakistan is neither in any position, nor likely to be ever in a position, wherein it shall be taken as a serious party to discuss the issue with. A Pakistani Author in a piece in Dawn was quite astute in observing that there has been a change in Indian attitude (look how people will misread the word attitude and run to show their ignorance ) towards negotiation with Pakistan.

Frankly, no one cares for the Kashmiri. The Pakistanis in their rabid tokenism without the capability to act decisively in their favor, are slowly losing the narrative. Majority of the 'support' is made as a statement that is anti-establishment in Srinagar, not pro-Pakistan. (@Starlord this is for you, refer your 'Kashmir banega azaad' in Muzzafarabad, observation eslewhere. The ground situation is quite different from what you all believe. The average Kashmiri wants both Pakistan and India out).

The metamorphosis of an insurgent movement into a jihadist movement plays right into the narrative that we need to get a 'free hand'. The world is sick of terror in name of Islam. And any armed struggle where Islam is being used to mobilize the resources, is automatically reinforcing the same. Today, even the average Indian who was not interested in WoT or 'Jihad' is not only sensitized, but sick of reading about the rabid philosophy and correlating the basic issue of Kashmir with the same. It is not an act of GoI, but the happenings of around the world, which is allowing the firming of a narrative.

It is the time to sit back with popcorns and watch the coming events. In my darkest of humour 'the fun has just begun'

Regards

 

[Reichsmarschall]

author is quoting general of record here. If general didnt say any of that he can file a case against author. i dont see him doing that or raising any objections.

why even bother about opinion of worthless Indian?