PAF's possible answer to MRCA

[SomeGuy]

First of all j-10b is in testing phase so uncle Richard can only predict things like we do here. Until the plane come in really production and prove it that's it's really capable of what it says. So before that we cannot even talk about j-10b.

J-10B is in testing phase yes - so we don't really know its capabilities.

However, you can make reasonable estimates of it's capabilities based upon the aircraft that it's based on i.e. J-10A (A solid 4th Gen aircraft which has been fully tested against Su-27 and MKK).

J-10B is going to be more advanced than J-10A otherwise there would be no point wasting millions developing it.

So is it too hard to imagine that J-10B is a 4.5 Gen fighter given that it is more advanced than the 4th Gen J-10A that it's based upon?

 

[Quwa]

First of all j-10b is in testing phase so uncle Richard can only predict things like we do here. Until the plane come in really production and prove it that's it's really capable of what it says. So before that we cannot even talk about j-10b.

...excuse me?...what are your credentials again? Are you a 'recognized authority on the PRC military?'

To be frank, all I see is people implying that some Indian owned Su-30 with Israeli ECM/EW is 4+/4.5 generation beyond any shred of doubt...but a Chinese built J-11B which "improves upon the Su-27 design by using more composite materials to reduce airframe weight, a new digital cockpit and a better Chinese-made radar" and will soon test an AESA radar cannot possibly be 4+/4.5 generation?

And even should these people somehow accept the word of a professional analyst (such as Richard Fisher) who has far more resources in terms of information and a much higher capability to verify the validity of said information than 99%+ of the esteemed pseudo-'analysts' here...it is still beyond reality that the Chinese would apply the 4+/4.5-gen. technology on their other programs, such as J-10B...never minding the fact that now J-10B is widely acknowledged to be a testing platform for PLAAF's 5th generation program...and somehow we're expecting the Chinese to use 3rd or 2nd gen. technology as a testbed for 5th gen. tech.

The gaps in logic and rationality here amaze me. Get over it people, the Chinese are testing 4+/4.5 generation technology, and unless you can foot $100k+ (and this is very generous, I was asked to intern at a think-tank, and this stuff costs millions of $) to somehow acquire research to the contrary, I suggest you stop trying to discredit facts with generalized one-liners on the basis that the facts don't fit in your daydreams.

 

[farhan_9909]

Sorry my friend and I just don't want to disappoint my Chinese friends either. But this is the truth. We need to come out of J-17 and J-10B dream and see what else we need to do to improve PAF. Look at Indian air force they have Mirage-2000, Jaguar, Mig 27, Mig 29, Su 27, Su 33, Harrier, and they are adding May be EF or RF. And top of that they ordered 200 PAK-FA. What we have F-16 and J-17 please man look at it to a real side. We have to go for more European or american planes. RF, EF, Saab Gripen, F-18, F-15 etc. I know they cost a lot but we also need to see what is best for us.

true we need a twin engine fighter for air superiority..we already hav many A2G role aircraft.
j-10B will cost +40 Million.and if we want to induct 150 then why nt buy f-18 or rafale only in 70 numbers.
or why nt the j-11BS with chineese engine and AESA.

plzz say no to single engine fighter.

 

[Super Falcon]

true we need a twin engine fighter for air superiority..we already hav many A2G role aircraft.
j-10B will cost +40 Million.and if we want to induct 150 then why nt buy f-18 or rafale only in 70 numbers.
or why nt the j-11BS with chineese engine and AESA.

plzz say no to single engine fighter.

i fully agre with you paf has to buy twin engine jet one way or the other in future why not now single engine jets dont have sort of speed and range to defeat enemy but if we have F 15 along with F 15 or EF it will make killing combination most of airforces make combination in their airforces and paf dont have any air superiority fighter jet

 

[farhan_9909]

i fully agre with you paf has to buy twin engine jet one way or the other in future why not now single engine jets dont have sort of speed and range to defeat enemy but if we have F 15 along with F 15 or EF it will make killing combination most of airforces make combination in their airforces and paf dont have any air superiority fighter jet

We cant buy f-15 or any other jet frm west except the rafale bt the prob with rafale is its money

if we join the j10B project with china and make it a twin engine fighter.or buy j-11B frm china.

the only option for j-10B is to put ws-15 engine in it which thrust is equal to twin engine thrust of EF and rafale..(180KN) bt the engine is nt ready yet..

 

[INDIAISM]

We cant buy f-15 or any other jet frm west except the rafale bt the prob with rafale is its money

if we join the j10B project with china and make it a twin engine fighter.or buy j-11B frm china.

the only option for j-10B is to put ws-15 engine in it which thrust is equal to twin engine thrust of EF and rafale..(180KN) bt the engine is nt ready yet..

twin engine j10b

as far as j 11 b is concern..........do u think china can sell them without russia's permission IMPOSSIBLE

 

[farhan_9909]

twin engine j10b

as far as j 11 b is concern..........do u think china can sell them without russia's permission IMPOSSIBLE

it was an idea..
and i think it can be done to j-10B,bt will need alot of modifications

and j-11BS is with chineese avionics and weapons and

and i dnt knw they can sell j-11BS to us or nt

 

[Cent4]

In addition to engines and avionics, China now offers complete accessory packages for its J-11 family of heavy fighters.

 

[SomeGuy]

true we need a twin engine fighter for air superiority..we already hav many A2G role aircraft.
j-10B will cost +40 Million.and if we want to induct 150 then why nt buy f-18 or rafale only in 70 numbers.
or why nt the j-11BS with chineese engine and AESA.

plzz say no to single engine fighter.

70 F-18/Rafale may very well cost the same amount as 150 J-10B but I think in the longer term it might be more sensible to go for J-10B because maintenance will be easier.

F-18 would come with a lot of strings attached - What about all the US officials saying that US weapons must not be used against India?
Sure, there's nothing preventing these weapons being used against India, but do you think the US would then supply parts and maintenance?

Also, in a conflict, the numberical advantage of having 150 J-10B over 70 F-18/Rafale would be more useful.

 

[Hindustan Fighter]

70 F-18/Rafale may very well cost the same amount as 150 J-10B but I think in the longer term it might be more sensible to go for J-10B because maintenance will be easier.

F-18 would come with a lot of strings attached - What about all the US officials saying that US weapons must not be used against India?
Sure, there's nothing preventing these weapons being used against India, but do you think the US would then supply parts and maintenance?

Also, in a conflict, the numberical advantage of having 150 J-10B over 70 F-18/Rafale would be more useful.

Hi also Rafale is outrageously expensive. I think none of Asian countries should go for it (including India).
I you are following Brazilian fighter competition you will see that the finally bid summited by Dassault for just 36 Rafale is 8.6 $ billions (initial bid us more than $10 Billion). Although if includes spare parts cost for 3 decades still it doesnot looks justified.
I think J10b will be truly 4.5 generation fighter and should be a great catch for Pakistan if available for 40- 50 $ million.

 

[SBD-3]

@Farhan...........what i can suggest to you is that wait.....PAF is patient which shows that PAF will have most likely have a matured platform and will certainly test the limits of J-10B....J-11B is a heavy aircraft but why would PAF need this when we can cover most bases with current range. lets analyse
J-10 Maximum range: 1,850 km (1,000 nm, 1,150 mi)
Combat radius: 550 km (300 nm, 340 mi)
Ok here are distances between sargodha and some indian bases
Western Command
Adampur 297.000 KM
AGRA 750.200 KM (should reach here with refueling)
Ahmadabad 1005.000KM(should reach here with refueling)
Amritsar 213.700KM
Bhatinda 300.200 KM
Chandigarh 417.800KM
Halwara 319.600KM
Leh 513.200KM
Palampur 225.100 KM
Pathan Kot 281.000KM
Srinagar 298.300 KM
Udham singh Nagar 732.600KM

so effectively from only sargodha.....we can cover their whole western command....you can also calculate the distances from different Pakistani Bases.....here'z the links
List of Indian Air Force bases - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
How Far Is It Between
I hope now you would understand why PAF doesn't need a twin engine heavy beast

 

[Storm Force]

Hasnain.

India has 60 air bases some upto 1000 km from Sargodha.

You have listed just 25% of them nearly all in Punjab.

There are at least 5 around NEW Delhi

6 at 6 naval bases over 1500 km.

India biggest arms priduction companies are in South India near Bangalore.

Just touching Punjab is like bombing 10% of india massive military structure

 

[sancho]

@Farhan...........what i can suggest to you is that wait.....PAF is patient which shows that PAF will have most likely have a matured platform and will certainly test the limits of J-10B....J-11B is a heavy aircraft but why would PAF need this when we can cover most bases with current range. lets analyse
J-10 Maximum range: 1,850 km (1,000 nm, 1,150 mi)
Combat radius: 550 km (300 nm, 340 mi)
Ok here are distances between sargodha and some indian bases
Western Command
Adampur 297.000 KM
AGRA 750.200 KM (should reach here with refueling)
Ahmadabad 1005.000KM(should reach here with refueling)
Amritsar 213.700KM
Bhatinda 300.200 KM
Chandigarh 417.800KM
Halwara 319.600KM
Leh 513.200KM
Palampur 225.100 KM
Pathan Kot 281.000KM
Srinagar 298.300 KM
Udham singh Nagar 732.600KM

so effectively from only sargodha.....we can cover their whole western command....you can also calculate the distances from different Pakistani Bases.....here'z the links
List of Indian Air Force bases - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
How Far Is It Between
I hope now you would understand why PAF doesn't need a twin engine heavy beast

Your point might be right when you think about defending an IAF attack and a possible reaction on those bases only, but like Stormforce said there are many bases, or targets that are more far away right.
Another argument to counter you, would be twin engine doesn't mean longer range only, but also better t/w ratios, more power for other systems and so on. Just think about Israel, Singapore, South Korea, or Japan, all relatively small countries, but they all have the F15 for air superiority right?

 

[Speeder 2]

Your point might be right when you think about defending an IAF attack and a possible reaction on those bases only, but like Stormforce said there are many bases, or targets that are more far away right.
Another argument to counter you, would be twin engine doesn't mean longer range only, but also better t/w ratios, more power for other systems and so on. Just think about Israel, Singapore, South Korea, or Japan, all relatively small countries, but they all have the F15 for air superiority right?

PAF's decision to use single engine fighter is stragetic and a smart choice. It's not the idea to counter relatively far bigger India $ for $ to start with as many forummers here would untintentionally assume in such VS discussion. I can imagine that the decision is based on the geo location, financial resources, parts availability, maintainance, etc whole host of issues.

The similar small as countries such as Israel, Singapore, S Korea and Japan, Pakistan doesn't possess the same kind of financial resources to indulge with some fancy toys. Single engine fighters are enough to handle regional / inter-city small conflicts as they would most likely to be the case, hence it's not a must to cover all air bases of India, under such a scenario a nuclear war would have been errupted long before that kind of boming becoming a neccesity.

I think it's most efficient for Pakistan to fully absorb techs and large scale production of JF-17 (with continuous more indigenious upgrades, etc.), perfect operations of F-16 blk 52, and being fully commited to J-10B(JF-20), while waiting for the single-engine version of J-XX. These babies , if intergrated well, are sufficient to counter IAF as a whole IMO. Of course, it's always a good id to keep an eye on some good western sub systems as well. Nonetheless, as what a seasoned boxer walking into a ring would like to think, an elegantly intergrated, fully commited and well tested fighting platform, simple it may look, is almost always more deadly than a combination of a little bit of every tricks under the sun as IAF has, which looks fancy on paper yet remains unneccesarily complicated (a nightmare from both real-fight operation and maintainance POV) thus less effective on the contrary in reality. Hey, Bruce Lee may only have 3 punches plus 1 sidekick, he aims to KO you with the simple combi in a minute, while a circus clown could have 80 moves to entertain audiences for a whole night long

 

[Super Falcon]

well F 15 will be the best if we wont get F 15 than J 11 will be good too