PAF Vs IAF Command and Control Systems

[silent hawk]

there will be time for every thing, anti-India elements can be taken out many ways , by different means , at different levels ,when time comes , if we think it is necessary we will use force, no power in the world can stops us ,

nice patriotic comment.

 

[lionheart1]

Why then all the developments and procurements. Why spend billions to achieve a capability that is not needed. Yes it may be just 4% of GDP but why waste it. What about IACCS if there is no need for conventional strikes why is this system being developed?

India is spending billions to upgrade it's armed forces. There is no threat from China and Pakistan is really to small to give any serious challenge in the conventional domain. If India does not wish to intervene in Pakistan, what is the purpose of upgrading Indian armed forces?

because for this Pak used terror as a hedge against India: Clinton
if there is another terror attack on our country . india will wage a war against you .( see little bit off the topic but it is necessary for the discussion ). India will not even give a single inch of land mean border cannot be redrawn at any cost for india . we will built atleast 18 dams on sindu river (indus), planing is to built 28 dam it will provoke pakistan , to protect india and Indian assets from any external aggression . we need a stronge armed force, and we have the money to maintain it .

 

[lionheart1]

nice patriotic comment.

it all facts my dear friend , it will be foolish to kill a person who is going to do suicide

 

[silent hawk]

it all facts my dear friend , it will be foolish to kill a person who is going to do suicide

nice attempt to provoke

 

[notorious_eagle]

it all facts my dear friend , it will be foolish to kill a person who is going to do suicide

But in this case we are not committing suicide and these are not facts. Sure India boasts a very fine Armed Forces but it does not has the numbers and the officers needed to pull off an overwhelming victory against Pakistan. This is a fact my friend, and if you don't believe me your Government certainly seems to believe that which has been made public after these Wiki Leaks. I have said this a hundred times and i will say it again, if India felt it could pull off an easy victory against Pakistan they would have attacked Pakistan in 2002 or 2008 to punish them and show whose the boss in South Asia. So stop trolling with these one liners and write something which has substance in it.

 

[Hulk]

But in this case we are not committing suicide and these are not facts. Sure India boasts a very fine Armed Forces but it does not has the numbers and the officers needed to pull off an overwhelming victory against Pakistan. This is a fact my friend, and if you don't believe me your Government certainly seems to believe that which has been made public after these Wiki Leaks. I have said this a hundred times and i will say it again, if India felt it could pull off an easy victory against Pakistan they would have attacked Pakistan in 2002 or 2008 to punish them and show whose the boss in South Asia. So stop trolling with these one liners and write something which has substance in it.

Countries don't go for war just to prove something, this is something that many Pakistani's completly miss. War happens as a last resort, when it is unavoidable. If you are not making attempts to avoid war, you are fool. We certainly are not fools.

 

[lionheart1]

But in this case we are not committing suicide and these are not facts. Sure India boasts a very fine Armed Forces but it does not has the numbers and the officers needed to pull off an overwhelming victory against Pakistan. This is a fact my friend, and if you don't believe me your Government certainly seems to believe that which has been made public after these Wiki Leaks. I have said this a hundred times and i will say it again, if India felt it could pull off an easy victory against Pakistan they would have attacked Pakistan in 2002 or 2008 to punish them and show whose the boss in South Asia. So stop trolling with these one liners and write something which has substance in it.

tell me which Indian government officer or minister as said it , it was said by american ambassador. tell me frankly what he know about indian armed forces. ok to sustain a war you need money atleast agree on it, how many day pakistan can sustain . see for every comment i made i will provide you a link , i dont troll

"But in this case we are not committing suicide and these are not facts"
i like your confidence but world thinks differently
http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Obama-believes-cancer-of-terrorism-is-in-Pak-Book/686098/

main objective or aim of any military of any nation is to protect his country, not to destroy others, i think indian army is doing a wonderful job. god speed

 

[silent hawk]

I think we can now safely conclude that the Indian armed forces want to be a regional and global superpower. They may not have offensive designs but at the very least they would like to have an armed forces which can inflict pain and punishment in case of terrorist attacks such as 2002 and 2008.

This would make sense Wikileaks has also confirmed that India despite its desire was unable to inflict pain on Pakistan. India hence does not have the capability to be regional power. India wants this capability and is hence upgrading its armed forces.

Unless there are rational counter arguments, I shall use this conclusion to compare PAF and IAF C4I systems

 

[lionheart1]

I think we can now safely conclude that the Indian armed forces want to be a regional and global superpower. They may not have offensive designs but at the very least they would like to have an armed forces which can inflict pain and punishment in case of terrorist attacks such as 2002 and 2008.

This would make sense Wikileaks has also confirmed that India despite its desire was unable to inflict pain on Pakistan. India hence does not have the capability to be regional power. India wants this capability and is hence upgrading its armed forces.

Unless there are rational counter arguments, I shall use this conclusion to compare PAF and IAF C4I systems

agree with many of your points but 26/11 was 2years ago , we have developed many system . we have procured many system from Israel . at the time of 26/11 we didnt had single awac now we have three . many of our sukohis where grounded due to shortage of tyres, but now we are completely manufacturing every part.(we have lowest number of squadron 32no in the Iaf history) but this month we will get IOC for tejas , MMrca will be finalized with in next 6 months . with in 20 day we are signing a deal with russia for fGFA amounting 30 billion dollars. already 2 squadron of akash sam as been inducted (produced by Bharath dynamics limited) another one squadron is ready to induct (produced by bharath electronics limited). iaf is expected to order 30,000 crores on akash in next few years .over all we will have a good armed forces which will good enough to defend our country and country's interest

 

[Hulk]

India is mordenizing it's defense due to following reason.
1) We did not purchased weapons for around 3 decades and hence most of these weapons are old.
2) China has rapidly improved it defense system and we want to make sure we can defend against China.
3) After 26/11 war against Pakistan seems a possibility, even though we do not want to go to war but if provoked time and again we will be left with no option.
4) Economonically we have grown hence defence organisation are getting more budget.

These are key points, but most people give miss to point one, which is the main point. When you do not buy clothes for some years you will find that all your clothes have become old, at the same time you get money and you buy clothes in bulk. This does not mean tomorrow is Diwali.

 

[silent hawk]

Countries don't go for war just to prove something, this is something that many Pakistani's completly miss. War happens as a last resort, when it is unavoidable. If you are not making attempts to avoid war, you are fool. We certainly are not fools.

With all due respect sir there is a very important point which many Indians including you have missed. The point is that India and Pakistan are at war. I have already proved this in previous posts so I will not do it again.

Pakistan is not trying to avoid war it is trying to end it. Because we not have the conventional means to challenge India most of our offensive actions are asymetric. These attempts shall continue till the time the Kashmir dispute is resolved. The question is not of how India will retaliate if Pakistan does something. The question is how will India retaliate when Pakistan does something.

No offence intended but in my opinions it is the Indians who are fools because they do not understand the reality. The reality is that there is no point in trying to prevent a war which is already going on. The efforts have to be to end this conflict and to end it as soon as possible.

 

[Tameem]

With all due respect sir there is a very important point which many Indians including you have missed. The point is that India and Pakistan are at war. I have already proved this in previous posts so I will not do it again.

Pakistan is not trying to avoid war it is trying to end it. Because we not have the conventional means to challenge India most of our offensive actions are asymetric. These attempts shall continue till the time the Kashmir dispute is resolved. The question is not of how India will retaliate if Pakistan does something. The question is how will India retaliate when Pakistan does something.

No offence intended but in my opinions it is the Indians who are fools because they do not understand the reality. The reality is that there is no point in trying to prevent a war which is already going on. The efforts have to be to end this conflict and to end it as soon as possible.

Sir, IMHO it all ends up to basically Hindu Vs Muslim mindsets in the Indian subcontinent which relates to their cultural traditions more or less, they highly admires Ganesh (Elephant) God in their culture even worships it on the other hand Muslims highly admires Shaheen (Eagle) the famous “Iqbal ka Shaheen” every Pakistani dreamed to be example of in his/her childhood.

The traits of both these animals effects greatly on the overall actions and mindsets of the masses and elites alike. Although Elephants are big they are slow to respond in every aspect however they never forget anything easily. Shaheens on the other hand lives for the day and quick to respond in equally every aspect. Elephant pent up their inner desires for some suitable time to avenge while eagles are ever ready for any eventualities whatsoever, If we go by this tendency we will witness a lot of similarities in the behavior of respective nations alike.

 

[rockstarIN]

=silent hawk;1313457]Now I really have my doubts about wikipedia.

Wiki never quote anything, its is all from other sources ans its just a platform to share it.

T

his map is surely incorrect. It shows India and Pakistan in the same category. India may be spending very less percentage but Pakistan really has to give a large chunk to keep pace.

Do you have anything to prove otherwise? then share it..

You do not wish to be like Japan that I understand. You also wish to be a permenant member of the UN security council. You also admit that the main purpose is political.

Can I than conclude that the purpose of the present upgradation of the Indian armed forces is a requirement for getting a permenant seat in the UN Security Council. India never did and still does not have any offensive designs against any neighbouring country?

Everybody have war plans, it is offensive & defensive. But to apply it is political decision. I understand your confusion, you see Indian huge army and doing nothing against poking of Pakistan. Its all about political leadership of India's and their foreign policy, war is the last resort, there are enough ways to counter it.

 

[silent hawk]

ANALYSIS OF IAF C4I SYSTEMS​

I now have enough data to make this analysis and make sense of it as well.

Published data shows that at present IAF has recently put AFNET in place and are developing IACCS.

This picture of AFNET shows a modern Network Operations Center (NOC) it is not a C4I system. The network is visible on the LSD it has about 30 nodes. With AFNET in place IAF now has the required communications network to build modern C4I systems. The mere fact that this system has recently gone active should be enough proof for professionals of this field to conclude that at present IAF cannot have a modern C4I center.

Here is what the AFNET has replaced.

The AFNet replaces the Indian Air Force's (IAF) old communication network set-up using the tropo-scatter technology of the 1950s making it a true net-centric combat force

The AFNET replaces 1950 technology, once again people with domain knowledge can easiliy conclude that at present IAF C4I systems consist of long distance HF radio links, Plotting Boards, China Graph pencils and operators who can write in mirror hand. With C4I systems it is simple you cannot have them till you have the communication system. Before AFNET such a system simply did not exist.

As someone mentioned India is buying clothes after a very long time. Soon I shall explain Why?

Now lets look at the IACCS

There is enough proof available to confirm that this is a system under development. So the question is at what point of development is IACCS?

From the Image I would say it is at the prototype/ proof of concept stage. The only developed center is the Operational Level ADCC. Rest of the images are cut paste from the internet as admitted by an Indian in this thread.

Let us look at the block diagram of IACCS.

This was the point where IAF C4I program became completely clear to me.

This system does not hape the capability to be network centric. NCW systems have the capability to operate with components at geographically dispersed locations. Hence in the block diagram of a NCW system you will never find the blocks connected with a LAN. Also there is no provisioning of voice which as I mentioned is one the most challenging aspects.

So the final element is Why is IAF lagging in C4I systems ?

The answer is that till 2008 India really did not need it. After 1971 IAF has never really been challenged. It has never been required to carry out offensive operations in Pakistan. The sheer quantity and quality of IAF fighters seemed to be good enough to take care of Pakistan. IAFs support in Kargil in a defensive role gave them further confidence of their abilities. In 2002 the main show was of the Indian army.

The problems as confirmed by Wikileaks came in 2008 when after the 2008 Mumbai Incident IAF was required in order to restore National Pride, to carry out Surgical Strikes in Pakistan. It was revealed that IAF does not have this capability. IAFs current moderenization plan is hence aimed at acieving the ability to inflict pain and punishment on Pakistan if and when required.

India does not Shiver like Japan does. However if it want's to be a Superpower it must have the capability to make other's shiver. This is what IAFs modernization program must be about.

I know this is a Vs thread and soon I shall give an analysis of PAF systems as well. In the meantime comments on my analysis (school report as mentioned by someone) are welcome.

 

[SQ8]

depending on the protocol chosen..it is possible to embed voice in it.
The US army's low alt warning system uses the SINGCARS radio to transmit its data back to the op center.. whilst maintaining voice capability.
There are already open source protocols available that allow for both data and voice transmission over the network.. and all are capable of being encrypted.

There are a few research centre's in India which have come up with such adaptations..and it is quite unlikely that DRDO did not notice..if not even support them.

In this respect.. if one was to take word of mouth..the PAF's project vision is no different from the IACCS...with a bigger role however for the command HQ's.
The NOC shown here already exists in the PAF.. one can buy that book I referred to get an idea of it..

The network, software section isnt the main problem.. its the hardware beneath it..
and right now the PAF lags behind in two major sectors of that hardware.