PAF vs. IAF Analysis- Air Combat Over the Subcontinent

[anoopsaxena76]

...............

You do realize that by the time India gets MRCA jets, Pakistan will have acquired F-16 MLU - this is clearly on the same league as SU30MKI and its definately better in BVR because of its missiles which are superior to those used by an SU30MKI. Pakistan will have even more JF-17s, these are also BVR capabable. And ofcoarse the FC-20, which again are on the same level as the SU30MKI. ............

Hi,
Why do you say so? I am not someone who indulges in this is better than that. So just wanted to know why you think that F-16 MLU's will be better than say Su-30MKI, in a BVR engagement.

BTW I am not suggesting MKI's would be better ... just your opinions.

Regards,
Anoop.

 

[Sgt Automatic]

Hi,
Why do you say so? I am not someone who indulges in this is better than that. So just wanted to know why you think that F-16 MLU's will be better than say Su-30MKI, in a BVR engagement.

BTW I am not suggesting MKI's would be better ... just your opinions.

Regards,
Anoop.

Hi

Well I am not suggesting that F-16 MLU would be better in a BVR with SU-30MKI. What I am saying is that the BVR missiles carried by the F-16 MLU are better than the ones carried by the IAF for the SU-30MKI.

 

[Tang0]

Which missiles precisely does Pakistan intend to equip the F-16 MLU's with?

[EDIT] Oops, looking around I see it is the AIM 120. Nice, although very expensive, choice.

 

[anoopsaxena76]

Hi

Well I am not suggesting that F-16 MLU would be better in a BVR with SU-30MKI. What I am saying is that the BVR missiles carried by the F-16 MLU are better than the ones carried by the IAF for the SU-30MKI.

I apologize for the assumption.

So it is AIM-120 and why is that better than what the Su-30MKI has, R-77?

Edited question: So why is the combination of various missiles on F-16 better than the combination of missiles on Su-30MKI? (AIM-120 and R-77 included)?

Please correct me if I am wrong in doing some ground work scenario.

1.) Are we assuming a real 1-1 fight BVR (possibly culminating into a WVR)?

I ask this because usually it will be a bunch of Su-30's against a bunch of F-16's. But we can put it down to 1-1 scenario for theory purposes, we can not afford the luxury of a practical, can we ?

2.) Who gets to fire the first shot?

3.) How many shots can one fire? (The Russian philosophy versus the US philosophy)

3.) What are the evasive maneuvers the other can take?

4.) If both escape the BVR engagment, what happens in the WVR engagement?

I will ignore the 4th question for this discussion because we are only discussing the BVR scenario here.

Please correct me if I have ignored any points.

Regards,
Anoop

 

[Bull]

700 to 400 is not an advantage at all as its mad out to be. Look at the airspace IAF has and what PAF has. I would say 'numerically' PAF has the advantage over IAF.

 

[zombie:-)]

Hi

Well I am not suggesting that F-16 MLU would be better in a BVR with SU-30MKI. What I am saying is that the BVR missiles carried by the F-16 MLU are better than the ones carried by the IAF for the SU-30MKI.

whats the point of carrying SO-CALLED better missiles if the opponent sees you first and takes the first shot

 

[MZUBAIR]

Pakistan is not getting 36 J-10/FC-20 this year.

The order is altered.

Now Pakistan is getting almost 50 J-10/FC-20 "high-tech" variant, to be delivered to the PAF in 2014-15, some speculate that this could be a version of the upgraded J-10B model.

On March 7th 2009, at agreement signing ceremony of JF-17 Thunder aircraft, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed said the agreement between Pakistan and China for the delivery of High-Tech aircraft J-10 was intact and these aircraft after improving them further would be delivered to PAF in 2014-15. He said these aircraft are being modernized in accordance with the PAF’s requirements and delivered under the title of FC-20.

Currently PAF is focusing to develop Full-fledged production of JF-17 in Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra.

Planned Upgrade of JF-17 till 2015.

The first 50 JF-17s entering Pakistan Air Force service will most likely incorporate only Chinese avionics and other systems.
Extendable in-flight refueling probes will be added soon.
Minor airframe modifications to add two more external hardpoints have also been mentioned by some sources.

Greater use of composite materials in the airframe to decrease weight.
Chinese Infra-Red Search and Track (IRST) system, possibly the Type Hongguang-I Electro-optical radar originally developed for the Chengdu J-10 fighter by Sichuan Changhong Electric Appliance Corporation. JF-17 is already compatible with this system but currently it must be carried externally in a pod mounted on one of the hardpoints.
New engine; most likely the Chinese WS-13 TianShan, although the PAF is considering fitting European powerplants such as the French Snecma M88 to its aircraft.

Minor airframe modifications to reduce the aircraft's radar cross-section by adding stealthy features.

Beyond the initial 50 PAF JF-17s, the remaining production aircraft may also be equipped with European avionics, radars and weaponry. Pakistan had begun negotiations with British and Italian defence firms over potential avionics and radars for JF-17 during initial development. Some of the radar options for JF-17 are the Italian Galileo Avionica Grifo S7and the French Thomson-CSF RC400 (a variant of the RDY-2), along with the MBDA MICA IR/RF short/medium range air-to-air missiles.


This would make the fighter more attractive.

 

[anoopsaxena76]

whats the point of carrying SO-CALLED better missiles if the opponent sees you first and takes the first shot

Well a simple answer is a first shot need not be a fatal shot.

Regards,
Anoop

 

[zombie:-)]

Well a simple answer is a first shot need not be a fatal shot.

Regards,
Anoop

right but depends on the number of aircrafts inbound no. of shots fired ...russian doctrine suggests rapid firing of two successive missiles of different homing...obviously when chasing enemy aircrafts tail ..but wanna know what will be done when faced head on ...any ideas

 

[anoopsaxena76]

right but depends on the number of aircrafts inbound no. of shots fired ...russian doctrine suggests rapid firing of two successive missiles of different homing...obviously when chasing enemy aircrafts tail ..but wanna know what will be done when faced head on ...any ideas

Precisely. That is why
1.) It was a simple answer.
2.) I asked all those questions in my earlier post.

In BVR engagement, I would assume that no plane would tail any other plane.. They would be head on for all practical purposes.

Regards,
Anoop

 

[vkurian]

I can understand your happiness when you say Indian forces are scared or whatever. What I don’t understand is why are you so happy if Chinese economy is growing by 7+ %.How is this going to benefit Pakistan.

War is a serious business and all possible scenarios have to be thought out before one takes an action. In the present situation what is the point firing couple of missiles in to Pakistan as it is anyway exploding internally. Our economy will slow down and you don’t have one to worry about yes Chinese will gain so may be some reason to celebrate.

 

[zombie:-)]

I can understand your happiness when you say Indian forces are scared or whatever. What I don’t understand is why are you so happy if Chinese economy is growing by 7+ %.How is this going to benefit Pakistan.

War is a serious business and all possible scenarios have to be thought out before one takes an action. In the present situation what is the point firing couple of missiles in to Pakistan as it is anyway exploding internally. Our economy will slow down and you don’t have one to worry about yes Chinese will gain so may be some reason to celebrate.

dont feed the troll yaar

 

[messenger]

I can understand your happiness when you say Indian forces are scared or whatever. What I don’t understand is why are you so happy if Chinese economy is growing by 7+ %.How is this going to benefit Pakistan.

War is a serious business and all possible scenarios have to be thought out before one takes an action. In the present situation what is the point firing couple of missiles in to Pakistan as it is anyway exploding internally. Our economy will slow down and you don’t have one to worry about yes Chinese will gain so may be some reason to celebrate.

no i disagree with zombie sir at this point . i dont understand why do pakistani friends gets so overjoyed when they see china growing and dont see the growth of india . get over it . do something so that you can say the same things for your country and not china . pakistan has great potential but it was torn apart by first usa and now by china .( bcoz of ridiculous gov i suppose .)

 

[messenger]

is there any news about jf-17 and lca . about its upgrades and future developments .

 

[saiko]

The Su-30MKI can fire first given the longer range of its missile, but firing at maximum range is usually discouraged due to the low PK. The Su-30MKI will probably not see the F-16 first though, so the F-16 has some room to play. The F-16 is going to pickup the Su-30MKI at the maximum range of its radar - well before the Su-30MKI can see the F-16.

The R-77 is some key aerodynamic advantages over the AMRAAM, but I am willing to bet the digital systems on the AMRAAM are better than the R-77. It's really quite a close call and would be an interesting battle.