PAF vs. IAF Analysis- Air Combat Over the Subcontinent

[Muradk]

i was expecting this kind of answer. Every unusual tactic seem like impossible to implement.but i want to know from members who are in air force,if this a possible option?
can you point out big flaws except bad execution.
if execution is bad means even simplest plan will go wrong.
BTW i was suggesting incursion after missiles struck their target then how will paf know.
i am presuming Pakistan don't have military dedicated satellite.

What were you expecting if you ask such questions.
Plus you predominately presume to much like your friends about Pakistan defenses.
5000 targets they must be talking about the Military Dairy Farm next to
Kharian cantt. They have atleast 5 to 6 thousand Cows there.

 

[batmannow]

every body thinks that enemy cannot possibly know its main weapons


"raw" i am just a engineering student ,don't even know how to get in to raw,what are the eligibility to get in to
whole idea is just idea only nothing like following of so called think tanks
can you elaborate in to Indian spy thing?

Rajkumar;sir
i really wana "elaborate in to Indian spy thing" but scince, you "ARENT PART OF RAW", i guss its use less, but i really want to give you credit for your dreamy " indian war plans "?
keep it up, i guss some day they(RAW) are going to find you by themselves.

 

[SherdiL!]

Thanks, so this is the answer that statements of indian politicians are not considered credible in Pakistan.

I was only wondering how the hell indian PM / FM came up with particular figure of 5000 targets.
Were they simply doing maths in their party office? or were they briefed about this figure from their security agencies?
Or as you said that was a mere hunch betting innocent lives?
In later case such politicians cum animals does not deserve to be respected or trusted upon. It should be made clear to wider world by Pakistani politicians but why it did not happen? Are Pakistani politicains inept or traitors in disguise?

I really don't understand when Pakistani inocent life means little to Pakistanis where as they regard flives of foreign nations very dear.

I know nothing even as compare to any airforce employee! I hope that clears my self.

guys if IAF has selected 5000 targets for surgical strikes its "IMPOSSIBLE".PAF has selected 25000 targets nothing to worry about air warfare Pakistan can do alot of damage to IAF in the first 4hrs of fullscale war before they can land on the nearbases the bases will be complety destroyed by Pakistans cruise missiles

 

[notorious_eagle]

I am currently reading 'Great Battles of the Pakistan Air Force' and I find this strategy similar to the Indian strategy against the F-104 during 1965. They came in quick, engaged with the F-86 Sabres and ran off as soon as or before the F-104s could do any real damage. However, as we know, this strategy didn't serve them too well as PAF F-86 Sabre pilots were not ones to leave you alone once you jumped them.

That maybe true but i tell you the pilot i was talking to definitely knew his stuff. I was particularly concerned about the MKI and i asked him and he wasnt really worried about the MKI at all. He told me that when our aircrafts fly low, the ground clutter disrupts the BVR missile seekers of the MKI. When our aircrafts shoot up their IR seekers can get a clear lock on the huge radar cross section of MKI's. This is just one tactic and it looks very effective to me; he told me that there were many other tactics that PAF has also developed.

 

[Muradk]

That maybe true but i tell you the pilot i was talking to definitely knew his stuff. I was particularly concerned about the MKI and i asked him and he wasnt really worried about the MKI at all. He told me that when our aircrafts fly low, the ground clutter disrupts the BVR missile seekers of the MKI. When our aircrafts shoot up their IR seekers can get a clear lock on the huge radar cross section of MKI's. This is just one tactic and it looks very effective to me; he told me that there were many other tactics that PAF has also developed.

One important thing which most of Aviation lovers should know.
Remember every fighter has something special in it. Not every fighter has the same Characteristics in terms of what block ( Altitude ) it will be at its best.
I am trying to explain in very simple english.

Lets take F-104 it is supposed to reach 20,000 to 30,000ft with in Sec but when we flew it we found out it worked beautifully below 5000ft.
F-7 is deadly between 5000 to 10000ft.
F-16 above 20000ft. So most experience pilots get into a fight knowing that the other fighter is much superior and gets him to fight on his terms bring him down to where your fighter will perform better or take him up where his fighter would perform bad. In both cases its very dangerous.
When we got Mirages we went head to head with them in F-86s to our surprise the guy pulls and within sec he is 15000 to 16000ft for the first few day they kicked our ***** and them we just figured out that ok above 20000ft he is chew my *** off so bring the fight down and pull and hard G and get him. Most people thing that now that the age of missile has taken over there will be no dog fights that is wrong. How many missiles could you carry eventually you have to get into a dog fight. Why do you thing TOP GUN , CCS, Turkish Fight Weapon School were established. The American were the first to find out without guns they are dead meat depending on missiles got them killed and so did we. Well in our case our damm I will say it again Damm sidewinders were useless until you took him out and the fighter is flying straight then you could shoot him down with a sidewinder rest we shot most by guns.

 

[PAFAce]

Well in our case our damm I will say it again Damm sidewinders were useless until you took him out and the fighter is flying straight then you could shoot him down with a sidewinder rest we shot most by guns.

What you said is exactly what I have read. But it says in 'Great Battles of the PAF' that the Sidewinders worked best when they were aimed up at the adversary with a cool background against which the IR signature of the prey was more visible.

This stuff is very interesting to me from an engineering stand point, because I faced a similar problem when designing an IR sensor for a completely different purpose. My IR sensors were supposed to check when the tires on a particular vehicle got too hot, but the sensors were not very 'smart'.

The PAF strategy mentioned to counter the MKI's BVRs uses this exact same principle but by using 'ground clutter' reflections in a different portion of the electromagnetic spectrum (instead of IR or heat, its now RADAR). I am sure Air Cdre Murad Khan would agree with this statement.

 

[fatman17]

i am afraid i gonna be disagree with you. i have read so many modern war histories. limited skirmishes will not yield any considerable results when two equally potent air forces fight each other.best option is, Indian should not do surgical strikes but very massive pre-emptive strike deep in to Pakistani territory like 'six day war' other wise IAF will never achieve air superiority. a prior preparation is needed like practicing 3 to 4 sortie par aircraft in a day as well as intelligence about missile detonation capability and anti-aircraft system of pak. since pak has only few air bases it will be easier to struck with agni-2 along with bramhos striking AACM launchers near the border.
strike with 80 mkis and 40 mirage2000 and mig29 and mig21bisons, all backed with airborne awacs from sea in night with air refueling in air. Time of execution is very important. Air strike has to be done within 10 min after missiles struck desired targets, this will cripple the PAF for 5 to 10 hours to do any mission. Then strike with full capacity of IAF up to 2 more sorties which will break backbone of PAF fully. this time target totally on hangers and hidden storage.
The most important thing in proposed mission is intel. Israel can help a lot in this case,they could provide good intel about AACM launchers and missile launching sites of pak because they are more afraid then Indian from Pakistani missiles. Next important thing is secrecy.Strong will to carry such daring mission is needed when it comes to this type of plan.

i hope some senior member will tell me about feasibility of this plan.

reading too many comic books are we!!!

 

[Kumar]

One important thing which most of Aviation lovers should know.
Remember every fighter has something special in it. Not every fighter has the same Characteristics in terms of what block ( Altitude ) it will be at its best.
I am trying to explain in very simple english.

Lets take F-104 it is supposed to reach 20,000 to 30,000ft with in Sec but when we flew it we found out it worked beautifully below 5000ft.
F-7 is deadly between 5000 to 10000ft.
F-16 above 20000ft. So most experience pilots get into a fight knowing that the other fighter is much superior and gets him to fight on his terms bring him down to where your fighter will perform better or take him up where his fighter would perform bad. In both cases its very dangerous.
When we got Mirages we went head to head with them in F-86s to our surprise the guy pulls and within sec he is 15000 to 16000ft for the first few day they kicked our ***** and them we just figured out that ok above 20000ft he is chew my *** off so bring the fight down and pull and hard G and get him. Most people thing that now that the age of missile has taken over there will be no dog fights that is wrong. How many missiles could you carry eventually you have to get into a dog fight. Why do you thing TOP GUN , CCS, Turkish Fight Weapon School were established. The American were the first to find out without guns they are dead meat depending on missiles got them killed and so did we. Well in our case our damm I will say it again Damm sidewinders were useless until you took him out and the fighter is flying straight then you could shoot him down with a sidewinder rest we shot most by guns.

In the 1971 war, four F-104As were lost in combat against the IAF MiG-21s. One pilot successfully ejected from his F-104 over shark infested waters, but was never found by the Indian rescue team.

Muradk Is this true ?

 

[Rajkumar]

reading too many comic books are we!!!

not, i haven't read 'comics' since long time, may be 10 years back. instead i have read all indo-pak wars,gulf and iraq war and arab-Israel wars and second world war.
what i am suggesting to think out of the box. if India shifts her military doctrine to cold start such extreme options are to be taken in to consideration.

Ok firstly the attack would depend on a number of factors.

A)Political situation. If there were tensions between India and PAk then the forces would naturally be on higher standby. Therefore it would be much harder to implement.

B)Intel resources would point to many indicators troop and aircraft movements. Contrary to common belief Pak has a good system in place to spot these things. Lets just leave it at that.....

c)A greater understanding of the systems would be needed. In a time of tension aircraft and launch systems would be dispersed and ground based air defence systems would be at full alert. the problem with using those systems is that they could be easily construed as a nuclear attack and would hence create a possible nuclear exchange.

d)Airborne assets would undoubtedly be in the air and would not be affect by the ground base attacks.

this kind of answer that i was hoping for. thanks.
BTW i figured out some feasible solutions, i gonna keep it for my self

Is this a reference to my playing flight simulator games? My wife gives me the same dialogue every morning at 3!



There is one big assumption in your scenario bro... as mentioned by our pakistani friends, your plan assumes that we'll catch them with their pants down! Whereas history shows that THEY are the ones who've always caught us with our chaddis down and a newpaper in hand!

strict no-no.

that's why i pointed out regarding secrecy and intel. it like we have wear'chaddi ke andar ek aur chaddi'
if india has to achieve air superiority,similar kind of action will be needed in future, other wise whats the point of changing doctrine.
the tactic you have given much more obvious and can only be implemented if there is absence of element of surprise from Indian side.


rest of things like video games and all,i don't think i need to explain my self to them.

 

[iamunique]

This is just one tactic and it looks very effective to me; he told me that there were many other tactics that PAF has also developed.

Very true, infact my source has admitted that he and his buddies were sort of 'jolted awake' during the briefing on PAF tactics by the israeli pilots. He says he had never thought that the pakis could think up such radically different stuff.

He adds that the course ended on a very hilarious note when one of the israeli pilots recited the below joke ( in fluent Punjabi ! ??):

"What the Pakistanis know, the arabs know. What the arabs know, the israelis know. What the israelis know, the americans know. And what the Americans know, George Bush shares with the rest of the world!"

 

[Rajkumar]

"What the Pakistanis know, the arabs know. What the arabs know, the israelis know. What the israelis know, the americans know. And what the Americans know, George Bush shares with the rest of the world!"

hehe funny max

 

[x_man]

The F-16s will use terrain-masking by flying really low over cities (hiding among the buildings literally!) to avoid detection by the Indian AWACS or the BARS radar of the SUs thereby preventing BVR engagement. Then when the indian jets are right over them or close enough, they'll dart upwards in a high speed attacking run guns & missiles blazing. The result will be massacre.

Zoom up profiles!!! IMO these are very old tactics and probably no more applicable in the modern air warfare against a BVR threat….

Remember, perhaps from your 10th grade regarding the popular Doppler experiment where you listened to the sound of a train as it rushes past you with horn tooting.The pitch of the sound drops as the source speeds past you and vice versa. Is the pitch really changing? Or if you were on the train would you hear any change? Well the same Doppler effect is also used in all modern radars to differentiate between a stationary source (target) and a moving one….This function is also termed as MTI i.e. moving target indicator and by judging the frequency difference from a source, radar can tell if it’s a moving or stationary….MTI function is not only used to reduce clutter but also used to avoid the receiver saturation…Lets suppose if your receiver is processing 20 targets and I want to drop all targets that are below the speed to speed of ( lets say) 200 knots, it will remove all the unwanted targets hence giving me less cluttered radar pic…..In a similar way the ground clutter can be removed too to some extent….MTI is also used against CHAFFS that drop with a very very slow speed…

Also for the moving ground targets in strong clutterd background, the phase coded hopped frequency (PCHF) waveform is used. By multiple bursts coherent processing, target velocity compensation and clutter compression can be accomplished simultaneously. The new waveform will also have good ability to suppress ground clutter…Unlike the earlier radars; these features are present in most of the modern radars …So flying at the nap of earth might not achieve the results that one is intending to…

To spoof a radar or to break a lock of an AI, various flying techniques and manoeuvres are employed…Some tactics are very specific and I am definitely not going to divulge them here….But rest assured that PAF pilots are very well conversant with these and it wont be an easy job for the opponent to employ a BVR against well time Anti-BVR tactics…

 

[ahmeddsid]

Once there is a BVR Lock no Pilot will sit and Pray the Missile coming towards it has a change of Heart and moves away. I read up on this and there are many ways to challenge it Like X Man said. But Its lethal nevertheless and cannot be shrugged away.

 

[valkyr]

this was too good ..... dodging in F-16 in buildings ..........

I mean the subcontinental cities are at best CLUTTERED ..... with space in streets hardly enough for people let alone cars and trucks ..... and there is intention to hide your AC in that!!!! and also fly it???????

what are you flying? a toy helicopter? forget the AWACS etc you have mentioned, corroborate your basis of flying amongst buildings

 

[ahmeddsid]

this was too good ..... dodging in F-16 in buildings ..........

I mean the subcontinental cities are at best CLUTTERED ..... with space in streets hardly enough for people let alone cars and trucks ..... and there is intention to hide your AC in that!!!! and also fly it???????

what are you flying? a toy helicopter? forget the AWACS etc you have mentioned, corroborate your basis of flying amongst buildings

it doesnt mean F16s will be flying hugging the terrain, if you below a certain ceiling, then it the radar cant distinguish the f16 from other sources. It doesnt mean F16s will be dodging autorickshaws!!