PAF vs. IAF Analysis- Air Combat Over the Subcontinent

[x_man]

actually quite right ..... the PAF never flew beyond the initial few hours in 1971 ...... they never got the chance then .....

Give us a break dude…..Your above statement speaks volumes of your bias and naïve thinking…..

Please don’t pollute this thread further with your useless and BS theories ...

 

[valkyr]

Give us a break dude…..Your above statement speaks volumes of your bias and naïve thinking…..

Please don’t pollute this thread further with your useless and BS theories ...

fair enough X_man

although I have usually being saying such things in lighter vein and was intended to be taken as such

but i guess you are offended by the same and so the apology

am sure the reply I had posted in response to the original thread which was a very "impartial" viewpoint of the Mig-21 pilot having shot down some craft and suggestions of dreams ...... am sure none of PAF ACs were lost in combat .... all were only lost in accident in 71 also ...... or self destructed

 

[Muradk]

In the 1971 war, four F-104As were lost in combat against the IAF MiG-21s. One pilot successfully ejected from his F-104 over shark infested waters, but was never found by the Indian rescue team.

Muradk Is this true ?

Yes its true.

Jamnagar Air Base: 12 December 1971, 1402 hours: Two MiG-21FLs at the ORP (Operational Readiness Platform) are scrambled to set up a CAP (Combat Air Patrol) at 3 km (10,000 feet) over the airfield. Minutes earlier, Mobile Observation Posts along the Saurashtra sea coast had reported two bandits flying low, crossing the coast line in the general direction of Jamnagar, with its vital air base. Shortly, the airfield is under attack, the bandits (Now identified as F-104A Starfighters) carrying out a front gun attack on aircraft parked near the runway 24/06 dumbbell (which were decoys). The second F-104, spotting the MiG-21s turns off and heads north. The lead F-104 continues at high speed along the runway but as he exits, one of the MiG-21s dives down and positions himself behind, but still above, the F-104, allowing the air defence guns to continue firing. The F-104 clears land, is over the sea, continuing at heading 2400, maintaining very low level and high speed. The MiG-21 drops down behind, to about 100 feet, at 1200 km/hr with full afterburner.
An air-to-air missile (K-13) is launched from the MiG-21 but the F-104 is taking evasive measures, firing flares to misguide the heat seeking missile and the K-13 is deflected away from the intended target. The MiG-21 pilot now selects 'guns' but as he is closing in, the F-104 suddenly pulls sharp to his right in a desperate manoeuvre, perhaps to throw off a second missile. The MiG-21 now rapidly closes distance and from 300 meters, fires three sharp bursts with the GSh-23 cannon at the F-104 which is immediately stricken, pulling up momentarily as it starts to flame and the pilot ejects. The MiG-21 goes fast past and pulls up, its pilot turning around to see the parachute has deployed, the F-104 pilot falling slowly under a bright orange canopy into the Gulf of Kutch a shark infested sea. The MiG-21 pilot circles the engagement area, calls up base to dispatch a rescue launch to the exact spot and them returns back to base.
Wg. Cdr. M.E. Middlecoat SJ, TBT. God bless his Soul he was a good friend and a teacher.

 

[valkyr]

there X_man

Acceptance is the first step to being effective and better ...... MuradK has the moral courage to accept the truth .....

am not biased ..... read my other posts in other threads you shall realise that ...... but if am not indulging in Pakistan bashing and instead appreciate it as and when it deserves it (especially PA in NWFP) i wont even take india bashing WITHOUT justification and reason based arguments.

 

[x_man]

First this…

actually quite right ..... the PAF never flew beyond the initial few hours in 1971 ...... they never got the chance then .....

And now this…

...... am sure none of PAF ACs were lost in combat .... all were only lost in accident in 71 also ...... or self destructed

I think if you want yourself to be taken seriously on this forum, you better correct your facts first…..Such childish remarks will only incite negative responses .

PAF did lose number of aircrafts in air battle and on ground as well …No one is doubting or contesting that….But as I guess that you are not in a mood for serious discussion and looking for some circus to start, so I will leave it to MODs to decide…..

 

[valkyr]

thanks murad .... for being a true honest and upright man

 

[valkyr]

First this…



And now this…




I think if you want yourself to be taken seriously on this forum, you better correct your facts first…..Such childish remarks will only incite negative responses .

PAF did lose number of aircrafts in air battle and on ground as well …No one is doubting or contesting that….But as I guess that you are not in a mood for serious discussion and looking for some circus to start, so I will leave it to MODs to decide…..

actually X_man its a very well documented fact that apart from the initial raids ..... and they were unsuccessful apart from damaging the runways for a few hours ......

and as for white washing the historical fact, its this .... 1965 PAF and 1971 IAF ..... no questions about it .....

as for achievement of air superiority by IAF, PAF may doubt it and challenge the claim ... but IAF was regularly launching air raids with impunity over Karachi, Lahore, Sui fields etc etc ..... and PAF was mainly left to defensive ops apart from a few daring attacks ......

i would be grateful if you could kindly go through this site

Indo-Pakistan War of Independence

 

[blain2]

Notorious while what you say is perfect sense and true, the main point I want you to kindly try and clarify is this :

1. With the introduction of the new Phalcons in addition to A-50s into IAF, there shall not be an instance when the Pakistani Airspace is not under complete observation and as such as soon as an AC will take off, its position, make and heading shall be noted and duly passed on to the IAF ACs in CAP or in Sorties on mission. How, then, does this technique help you when your coordinates will be given before and hand and all one IAF pilot has to do is to use them in BVR role?

Missiles are homed by the fighter aircraft. Which means that the lock on would need to be done by the MKI's radar and that of the seeker on the AAM. Clutter can play a role in limiting the capabilities of the missile at low altitude. While the Phalcon can vector the IAF aircraft toward the Pakistani aircraft, the actual locking on etc. is a tricky business.

2. The permissive ability of a SU-30 MKI to act as a mini-AWACS with ability of 350 km search range in forward hemisphere with tracking in at 200 kms range and 60 km posterior hemisphere, ability to track 15 threats and engage 6 most immediate and also ability to track tanks from 50-60 kms also makes things slightly if not the least difficult for easily dismissive and offhandedness over ability to "hide" and evade BVR with full confidence ..... any ideas what possible methods maybe employed here?

The ranges you quote are theoretical ranges. Depending on the vectors of the aircraft being tracked, the direction its moving in all have an impact on what you can track. Also tracking is not sure thing either. Ingressing aircraft flying alone, in pairs or in strike packages can conduct jamming which also has a major impact on the tracking range of the AI radar such as the one on the MKI. In a dense environment with many aircraft from both air forces up in the air in addition to assets being flown by the two armies, there are a multitude of IFF challenges. Theoretically the ranges of the radars and missiles all sound great, however for an effective BVR or WVR engagement to successfully take place involves many factors which may or may not be in control of one side.

3. Yes the electronic signals do get fudged but due to the extensive urbanisation of subcontinent and highr densities in Indian sides, am sure Indian pilots have learnt to discern threats even in such backdrops as must have the Pakistani fighter pilots. afterall they are professionals and know what they face. So does it not render the whole thing on precarious grounds? Could it be that the PAF pilot you were speaking to was just easing out your worries?

Pilots discerning the target from clutter is one thing, the ability of the sensors (seekers specifically) to do it at the same level as the pilot a whole another thing. I am not too sure if Pakistani pilots would openly discuss their anti-BVR tactics or their own BVR capabilities so casually. The statement may have been a general one for that matter. While not having BVR at a fleed wide level is a disadvantage, however we have been training against potential adversaries equipped with an Air Intercept radar and BVR missiles since 1987 (this is when the Soviet VVS introduced Mig-29 Fulcrum into the Afghan theater). We have worked very closely with Turkish and NATO airforces in AEW managed exercises involving very advanced AI radars and BVRAAMs during the past 8 years. So while the Indian BVR capability is a concern, we are not totally defenseless against it.

 

[blain2]

actually X_man its a very well documented fact that apart from the initial raids ..... and they were unsuccessful apart from damaging the runways for a few hours ......

and as for white washing the historical fact, its this .... 1965 PAF and 1971 IAF ..... no questions about it .....

as for achievement of air superiority by IAF, PAF may doubt it and challenge the claim ... but IAF was regularly launching air raids with impunity over Karachi, Lahore, Sui fields etc etc ..... and PAF was mainly left to defensive ops apart from a few daring attacks ......

i would be grateful if you could kindly go through this site

Indo-Pakistan War of Independence

There were raids against Karachi in 1971, no denying that, but something that most outside observers are not aware of is that PAF was holding back almost 60% of her assets in anticipation of supporting a major offensive to be launched by the Pakistan Army to grab some real estate inside of India and relieve the pressure against East Pakistan. This is a well documented fact. Since this offensive did not materialize, a vast majority of the PAF assets remained underutilized.

What this resulted in was interdiction missions by the IAF succeeding in Karachi, but elsewhere, whenever PAF took to the air against the IAF, we gave it as good as we got it. My own opinion of the 71 war is that the situation in East Pakistan makes the case look so bad for Pakistan. Otherwise we held off India in West Pakistan to a stalemate.

 

[Muradk]

thanks murad .... for being a true honest and upright man

I am not taking any sides if I have to choose between you and X, I will choose X he is like a son to me. We would like to discuss these topics with you but, please do respect others, The difference between you and him is experience.
He has seen and done things you can't even dream off.
So do listen to him you might learn a few thing about PAF.

 

[valkyr]

posted by Blain2

Missiles are homed by the fighter aircraft. Which means that the lock on would need to be done by the MKI's radar and that of the seeker on the AAM. Clutter can play a role in limiting the capabilities of the missile at low altitude. While the Phalcon can vector the IAF aircraft toward the Pakistani aircraft, the actual locking on etc. is a tricky business.


agreed a tricky business but still doable I guess ..... but in case of SARH (example R-27R used by IAF) the same can be achieved (again you are right theoretically as only real war will prove validity)


The ranges you quote are theoretical ranges. Depending on the vectors of the aircraft being tracked, the direction its moving in all have an impact on what you can track. Also tracking is not sure thing either. Ingressing aircraft flying alone, in pairs or in strike packages can conduct jamming which also has a major impact on the tracking range of the AI radar such as the one on the MKI. In a dense environment with many aircraft from both air forces up in the air in addition to assets being flown by the two armies, there are a multitude of IFF challenges. Theoretically the ranges of the radars and missiles all sound great, however for an effective BVR or WVR engagement to successfully take place involves many factors which may or may not be in control of one side.

actually dense engagements will not be a likely scenario due to need for high tempo of ops in initial hours of conflict in order to establish/deny air superiority. with the recognition of the air-land battle concept for its value, the same has gained more prominence. the emulation of the same was evident in Op. Chengiz Khan of 1971 by PAF. As for ECMs, the same need the AC to be airborne to engage, but with airspace depth of pakistan being about 500 or so kms, any AC is automatically bound to be noted and plotted by any AWAC and necessary action taken for the same. So probability of surprise is lost. Also the theoretical valuations for the BARS has been done and validated in wargames over in India. So am quite confident.

Pilots discerning the target from clutter is one thing, the ability of the sensors (seekers specifically) to do it at the same level as the pilot a whole another thing. I am not too sure if Pakistani pilots would openly discuss their anti-BVR tactics or their own BVR capabilities so casually. The statement may have been a general one for that matter. While not having BVR at a fleed wide level is a disadvantage, however we have been training against potential adversaries equipped with an Air Intercept radar and BVR missiles since 1987 (this is when the Soviet VVS introduced Mig-29 Fulcrum into the Afghan theater). We have worked very closely with Turkish and NATO airforces in AEW managed exercises involving very advanced AI radars and BVRAAMs during the past 8 years. So while the Indian BVR capability is a concern, we are not totally defenseless against it.

I agree to your summation here ....... need not get into intricacies to prove a point. Its accepted ....... and understood.

 

[valkyr]

There were raids against Karachi in 1971, no denying that, but something that most outside observers are not aware of is that PAF was holding back almost 60% of her assets in anticipation of supporting a major offensive to be launched by the Pakistan Army to grab some real estate inside of India and relieve the pressure against East Pakistan. This is a well documented fact. Since this offensive did not materialize, a vast majority of the PAF assets remained underutilized.

What this resulted in was interdiction missions by the IAF succeeding in Karachi, but elsewhere, whenever PAF took to the air against the IAF, we gave it as good as we got it. My own opinion of the two wars is that the situation in East Pakistan makes the case look so bad for Pakistan. Otherwise we held off India in West Pakistan to a stalemate.

blain whatever the reasons, the history is the judge not you or i. i quoted gen patton and i stand by his quote ....... i have healthy respect for PA and PAF and am honest about it

 

[valkyr]

I am not taking any sides if I have to choose between you and X, I will choose X he is like a son to me. We would like to discuss these topics with you but, please do respect others, The difference between you and him is experience.
He has seen and done things you can't even dream off.
So do listen to him you might learn a few thing about PAF.

am not asking for sides or your support.......

am one to accept the truth as it stands and have seen you do exactly that so said thanks ..... instead of dismissing a question as a dream of a Mig-21 pilot by fatman.....

please read post 197 by X_man ...... am sure respect is merited to those who give the same .............

 

[RedBaron]

am not asking for sides or your support.......

am one to accept the truth as it stands and have seen you do exactly that so said thanks ..... instead of dismissing a question as a dream of a Mig-21 pilot by fatman.....

please read post 197 by X_man ...... am sure respect is merited to those who give the same .............

Valkyr - I notice you are a newbie to the forum, I am one myself. If you spend some time browsing the various threads, you will come across innumerable discussions where senior members like X_man, MuradK, Fatman17, Blain2 have posted their views. These gentlemen have real battlefield experience in many wings of the Pak Armed Forces, and share a wealth of information that is educational as well as entertaining. They deserve due respect online and offline. I personally have learnt a great deal in the few months that I've been a member on this incredible forum...it's addictive.

Also, the senior members are men of good humor and engage in friendly banter. Why take offense? Instead enjoy the experience and enrich your knowledge at the same time. This is just a forum after all, no need to lose your cool, Relax.

 

[x_man]

please read post 197 by X_man ...... am sure respect is merited to those who give the same .............

Post 197!! I think it was a very candid response to your post 191. But you didn’t learn anything from it and came up with more sarcasm in your post 198….Mate, if you were still looking for a loving hug after showing that type of knowledge, then I am sorry that you asked for a bit too much…

Over the past two years, I have seen enough spammers and trolls on this forum who just come here with only one sole purpose: to bad mouth Pakistan and they spoil the board by bombarding their gibberish…..They all have two things in common…1. They disregard any logic presented to them and come with the facts that are nowhere close to reality 2. They all have a very short life on this board…

If you want to distant yourself from those trolls, which I hope, then I am sure you will produce facts based on some logic other than whims….I apologise if I was harsh, lets put it behind , move forward and lets discuss the issue in hand in more civilised way…

as for achievement of air superiority by IAF, PAF may doubt it and challenge the claim ... but IAF was regularly launching air raids with impunity over Karachi, Lahore, Sui fields etc etc ..... and PAF was mainly left to defensive ops apart from a few daring attacks ......

IAFs air superiority and PAFs defensive doctrine…I have already discussed in some detail in post 90…here it’s again…

IAFs doctrine was based on achieving Air Superiority and PAFs was defensive while creating a Favourable Air Situation in time and space….The very fact that IAF couldn’t achieve Air Superiority and PAF kept giving them tough opposition till the end answers this question…

While stats and numbers cannot be ruled out but they provide nothing in the context of achieving ones objective…For example to create a fav air sit at a certain time , if one airforce loses 8 fighters but still achieves the larger objective, it translates into that it did her job….

Don’t chase the numbers… they can be very deceptive…Look at the overall task that an air is designed to do…..If it couldn’t achieve that despite low attrition , its still a failure on her part…

While 71 was a political failure for us, PAF managed to deny IAFs Air Superiority and kept flying in her own airspace and provided the opposition that was required out of her….