PAF vs. IAF Analysis- Air Combat Over the Subcontinent

[blain2]

Blain he was Wing Commander Ali Kuli Khan Khattak ( AKKK) …he later commanded a Mirage squadron , No.8 perhaps and left airforce few years later….

Thank you sir. Do you know if he was in any way related to the former CGS, PA?

Ahh I figured it out. Found this:

The Khattak mentioned by you is not the former CAS but Ahmed Kuli Khan Khattak, younger brother of Lt Gen Ali Kuli Khan Khattak. He was an out standing pilot and converted to F-16 in record time.

The older brother was Ali Kuli Khan who was the CGS, Pakistan Army and coursemate with Pervez Musharraf (in 29 PMA LC but passed out from Sandhurst as the #1 overseas cadet) and the younger brother is as you mention WC Ahmed Kuli Khan (PAF).

 

[Contrarian]

This is an Indian myth that you guys have allowed to perpetuate as a counter to what we say. Tell me one instance where we had superior equipment? In the 1965 war, we had sabres and 10 F-104s. To counter that, your IAF flew Hunter and you had already received Mig-21s which was a better aircraft than the F-104. Any which way you look at it, it was as even in terms of quality of aircraft as it comes. You may want to dig up the performance stats of the types I am quoting above and you will find that IAF aircraft were just as good or slightly better than what PAF mustered.

During the 1971 war, you guys flew Mig-21s in large numbers which were again similar to the Mirage IIIs, and better than the F-6s and F-86s that we flew along with surviving F-104s. You were in no way outclassed technologically. In reverse over Golan, our pilots flying Hawker Hunters had taken down supersonic Mirage IIIs of the IAF. So the aircraft on either side had enough capability...the issue was who was pushing the limits. Your IAF had greater numbers and could generate more sorties but that advantage was not realized over West Pakistan. Claiming victory over a single sqn (14) in East Pakistan who went down fighting and shot down quite a few IAF aircraft in the air as well as conducting raids against aircraft on the ground is debatable.

I am all for no chest thumping, however every now and then, people on both sides claim stuff which needs to be put into proper context.

Without going into who shot down who and how many. Please tell me how many MiG 21's were present in the '65 war!

Secondly, in '71, are you equating the Mirage 3's with MiG 21's?

Pakistan fielded Sidewinders on the F-104, Sabres, even F-6! the Soviet missiles which were put on MiG 21's only were nothing but a third rate copy of the Sidewinders! IAF was relying on guns and cannons completely!

Pakistan had radar coverage, communication networks while IAF was relying on spotters to see low level enemy aircrafts, count them, classify them and communicate on insecure HF radios!

So i reiterate, PAF did enjoy the fruits of technology MUCH before IAF did and thus was technologically superior in both the wars.

I take away nothing from the skill of the PAF pilots or the IAF ones. I am not qualified to judge either one.

 

[fatman17]

THE AVIATION FACTFILE
MODERN MILITARY AIRCRAFT, GENERAL EDITOR JIM WINCHESTER
2004, 2005 AND 2007.
page 144-145
LOCKHEED MARTIN F-16A FIGHTING FALCON.
.....in service with many nations, the F-16 can be rightly regarded as the world's standard fighter. this example is one of Pakistan's aircraft, which have shot down up to sixteen Russian types along the border with Afghanistan for the loss of one F-16 apparantly a own-goal.

 

[Vinod2070]

Nobody is claiming that Indians stink at their job. Our responses are usually to bring a reality check back into the discussion when people on your side start going off in the lala land about the abilities and capabilities of the IAF.

On the issue of the Airborne Africa, I posted the results (keep one thing in mind, Indians came in second, we were fourth, however for us it was the first ever AA participation, you guys had been there before knew the format, had trained for the events with that understanding...the South Africans came in first and Dutch were third. Not a bad showing for any side. Also to note, we have fought 3 wars now. Aside from the one in 1971 in which we had severe limitations in EP, Pakistan and India have always fought each other to a stalemate (this was also the case in 1971 on the West Pakistan side). We have our plus points and you guys have yours.

Your comment about the "stupid" Internet warriors on our side is fair, however we can't really control what a 16-20 year old can or cannot write based on his own limited understanding. My sole issue is what I have stated before. There is a lot of underestimation by even mature Indians here and elsewhere.

I never think that Pakistani military is not competent. I think they are very good for the most part, especially coming from a society steeped in mediocrity like both of our countries.

I got into this whole IAF vs. PAF thing only because some people like to claim that IAF is a bunch of amateurs compared to the PAF. They are not.

They can give (and have always given) as good as they get.

So be proud of your forces (and other institutions). That doesn't necessarily equate to running down the others.

 

[TOPGUN]

I never think that Pakistani military is not competent. I think they are very good for the most part, especially coming from a society steeped in mediocrity like both of our countries.

I got into this whole IAF vs. PAF thing only because some people like to claim that IAF is a bunch of amateurs compared to the PAF. They are not.

They can give (and have always given) as good as they get.

So be proud of your forces (and other institutions). That doesn't necessarily equate to running down the others.

Vinod bahi i can agree & respect with wat u stated in your post! but tell that to your fellow country man that start tension here for no reason and iam sure in the end as always it takes both hands to clap Paf has its place and Iaf has it place but thats where it should end!

 

[Vinod2070]

What facts are you looking for? PAF took to the air in both 65 and 71 against overwhelming odds. You guys were trained by the British the same way we were initially. You have had more regular infusion of technology ever since the partition than us. If your pilots are so awesome now as most here and on every other forum claim, what was holding them back from being so awesome before?

Now lets take the issue of claims of aircraft downed away from this debate, now tell me being the bigger and more capable airforce, why was the IAF not able to decimate the PAF in either wars? You guys should have been able to shut us out in all of the previous wars. For us holding you guys to a stalemate is sufficient as we are the underdogs, but in actuality we did better than a stalemate. We denied air superiority to your air force in both wars over theaters where we contended for supremacy. That was our mission and even though we were handicapped in terms of our numbers, we leveled the playing field in other ways.

You are talking about us using 3 things (there are way more than 3 sources), well how about you guys bringing things to counter this? How come you guys are incapable of countering these references with other sources? Suddenly you folks are going nuts over receiving some compliments from the American side and spare no opportunity to display that, why is it that these American compliments are the only truth? The General that we quote is not like most pilots. He has 18000 hours flying more aircraft with more pilots of diverse background than anyone else that I know of. So lets not discount him so easily here.

Did you read the comments of the F-16 IP that I posted above? How about that as a source? The point simply is that while you guys are good, we are aware of it. We do not take the IAF threat lightly and the Indian fanboys here need to understand this. If we did not take the IAF seriously, I doubt that we would be recounting the performance of the PAF as we do now.

While I have limited knowledge on the air force history, I do know that PAF was technologically advanced that IAF in 1965 and 1971. That offset the numerical disadvantage to a large degree.

Also the difference was not nearly as large as is projected many times. Nor was the air war outcome as one sided.

 

[HASANITALIA]

Sir Murad, Could you shed some light on the "Article" Which started this Comparison? Would love to hear from someone of your stature.[/QUOTE



History can't be changed, What PAF achieved against IAF in 65 , 71 was not luck or we were there at the right time no no no it was all skills. After the war we knew as long we have a country like India next to us we have to keep our edge. Yes in the late 70s Indian Air Force with the help of Russia went through a giant leap, And we went through that leap in 1984.
We as Pakistani never went to the news or in media saying that why is India getting this or that on the other hand they were pissing in there pants when PAF just got the first 4 F-16s. IAF was not scared of the F-16s they were actually scared of the pilots sitting in a cockpits. ( Your Fighter is as good as you are ) In our case yes there was no doubt that we had made our name against fighting one of the best and winning every time. We went against the Indians we won they say differently who cares, we went against the Israelis and we won and at that time Israelis thought that they were the best if we had atleast 15 pilots on every side we would have kicked there ***** but we only had a very few including me when ever we went against a Israeli Fighter we took it down without and fancy moves. From that point of prospectus, I would say Indians were better pilots than the Israelis.
Since the 70s we had exercises with USA , UK, Turkey, China, and different Arab worlds. There is not even one exercise we lost it was not that our planes were better no our pilots were better, Our training was better. USA brought there ship carrier in the 70s went against 4 F-14 vs 3 F-6s, 1 Mirage we shot them down , we went against F-16 vs F-16 with the US they lost it every time Late AVM Rizzaq God Bless his soul he was a group Captian went against them all 3 dog fights Rizzaq punches the lights out of the American.
Why they were flying the same plane but our training was to good.
IAF talks about Red Flag I have seen it first hand its a big game set up for you to only coordinate with each other than dog fight.
The Indians showed what they were made of according to there OC Rathore ( Ok guys lets show the world what we are made of) and what happend IAF got shot every time not only that they shot most of there own planes Yeah I call that best of the best Our CCS when the US COAS came to Sargodha he flew with late COAS MUSAF and he was very surprised to see the way we fight and all the credit went to our CCS. Yes there is no doubt in my mind that our CCS is 100 times difficult than the IAF, other IAF, USA Top Gun.
We the old vets set up a system that our kids would go through hell before they clear or barley pass CCS, Ask Xman how difficult it is they treat you like a dog and when you come out from the other end of the tunnel you are pure gold regardless what plane you are flying.
IAF talks about BVR a missile coming towards you from 50 or more miles or Km you can screw the system of that missile in no time. Again I cant go into details what PAF has and what PAF doesn't. I only know that when afghan war started we had junior guys on cap who were CCS qualified and when they got into a fight there training took over and they came out victorious every time, and every time we were out numbered. So this shows that we have taken down , IAF, IAF Arab, USA, UK, Afghan , Russians. what else do we need to show you like I said before to my Indian friends its will always be the man behind the machine. It took IAF 1 week to go solo on the hawks at first they couldn't speak proper English and couldn't understand the British this just shows that IAF have forgotten what they were taught by the British IAF was born from RAF if I am not wrong. On the other hand it took us 2 missions to go solo on F-16s and the American were totally blown away by that and the way we integrated the info and used it and learned it. I landed the F-16 without the help of my IP who said you can't do it its to light and you will jump off the runway to his surprise and what he said " this was one of the best landings I have ever felt do it again". On the 4th day we had totally changed the dash one what the US gave us and made it to where we felt this is the right way I wish these kids who are making fun of us today would have seen there faces those pilots had 1000 plus and we had 5 to 6hrs and we went for a friendly match and got them the first times. WHY? Experience and the training we got from our IPs.
So in the end I can say only one thing because no matter what I say this chap will just keep coming on the forum to prove that they are the best if IAF thinks they are the best let them think now after there performance in RED FLAG the whole world knows what they are made of. SO I say wake up and start asking questions to IAF instead coming to a Pakistani forum and taking your anger out that your country men let you down.
I promise you we PAF had no hand in you guys loosing the red flag. or making fools out of your selves.

sir ji isliye usa humey f 16 nahi miltey simple we r best

 

[blain2]

Without going into who shot down who and how many. Please tell me how many MiG 21's were present in the '65 war!

Secondly, in '71, are you equating the Mirage 3's with MiG 21's?

Pakistan fielded Sidewinders on the F-104, Sabres, even F-6! the Soviet missiles which were put on MiG 21's only were nothing but a third rate copy of the Sidewinders! IAF was relying on guns and cannons completely!

Pakistan had radar coverage, communication networks while IAF was relying on spotters to see low level enemy aircrafts, count them, classify them and communicate on insecure HF radios!

So i reiterate, PAF did enjoy the fruits of technology MUCH before IAF did and thus was technologically superior in both the wars.

I take away nothing from the skill of the PAF pilots or the IAF ones. I am not qualified to judge either one.

IAF had at least 12 Mig-21s (more than the number of our F-104s) and these were based out of Pathankot at the time the 65 hostilities began. Why so close to the IB if not meant for use against Pakistan? that is for IAF to answer.

Secondly, I agree that the use of AAM did give PAF a psychological advantage however 23 were used over the entire war and 9 resulted in aircraft getting shot down (F-6s were not AIM-9 capable at that time, only some of the F-86s and F-104s). In no way a substantial number either expended nor a great success rate. Obviously there was considerably higher AAM exchange in the 1971 war so nothing technically superior on the PAF side in that conflict. However a vast majority of kills in the 65 & 71 war were gun kills. As bad as the Russian AAMs were, earlier AIM-9 series was not all that great either. Highly susceptible to ground clutter as most of the air combat took place at low altitudes.

Mirage III as it was available in the 60s is the same generation as Mig-21 and F-4.

Radar network of both was patchy and relied on MOUs etc. PAF did not have the highly integrated PADS-77 that it has now. We had a hodge-podge of radars for our GCI network and that is what your side used too.

The fact that both sides shot down each other goes to tell you that neither side is incompetent. Both have excellent pilots and both are investing in technology. The historical aspect is the one that we are discussing with my point being that IAF was not as handicapped as it is perceived to have been in the past wars.

 

[blain2]

sir ji isliye usa humey f 16 nahi miltey simple we r best

I would not be boastful and say that we are the best! We are not the best just like nobody is the best. Every decent Air Force has some very good air crews and pilots and some average. We are in this group and would like to stay in it. As long as you are in this group, you have a very good Air Force. We train hard and we have some very good modernization programs to boot.

 

[Contrarian]

IAF had at least 12 Mig-21s (more than the number of our F-104s) and these were based out of Pathankot at the time the 65 hostilities began. Why so close to the IB if not meant for use against Pakistan? that is for IAF to answer.

Secondly, I agree that the use of AAM did give PAF a psychological advantage however 23 were used over the entire war and 9 resulted in aircraft getting shot down (F-6s were not AIM-9 capable at that time, only some of the F-86s and F-104s). In no way a substantial number either expended nor a great success rate. Obviously there was considerably higher AAM exchange in the 1971 war so nothing technically superior on the PAF side in that conflict. However a vast majority of kills in the 65 & 71 war were gun kills. As bad as the Russian AAMs were, earlier AIM-9 series was not all that great either. Highly susceptible to ground clutter as most of the air combat took place at low altitudes.

Blain, regarding the AAM's, i reiterate, PAF had AAM on F-6, F-104, as well as sabres! IAF had it on MiG 21 only and the missile itself was practically useless.

Mirage III as it was available in the 60s is the same generation as Mig-21 and F-4.

Radar network of both was patchy and relied on MOUs etc. PAF did not have the highly integrated PADS-77 that it has now. We had a hodge-podge of radars for our GCI network and that is what your side used too. [/QUOTE]
Blain, i can go on and show how the PAF system was much much more sophisticated compared to what the IAF had to rely on, but it is pointless. I believe you are not going to accept this particular fact.

The fact that both sides shot down each other goes to tell you that neither side is incompetent. Both have excellent pilots and both are investing in technology. The historical aspect is the one that we are discussing with my point being that IAF was not as handicapped as it is perceived to have been in the past wars.

I am not implying, nor have implied at any point, that not being technologically at par with PAF was a handicap.

I said both sides enjoyed different kinds of advantages. IAF had numerical advantages among others, PAF had technological advantages among others. I would however say to whoever, who implies that as a standard, a small PAF kicked a larger IAF's a$$, that he is talking BS. There were diagonally opposite advantages and disadvantages.

 

[blain2]

^ Apparently the pilot ejected safely and was recovered as well to my knowledge. If anyone can confirm this please do.

Yes that is correct! We did not lose any pilots during the Afghan war. Unfortunately post-Afghan war, at least two (Quadri sahib and AVM Razzak) lost their lives to accidents.

 

[hj786]

Pakistan fielded Sidewinders on the F-104, Sabres, even F-6! the Soviet missiles which were put on MiG 21's only were nothing but a third rate copy of the Sidewinders! IAF was relying on guns and cannons completely!

India - Pakistan War, 1971; Introduction

The “advantage” of Sidewinder-armed Sabres was actually of very limited nature. The fact was that the PAF not only received a very limited number of AIM-9Bs, but that also the earliest surviving rounds were meanwhile nearing the end of their shelf-life. The first 60 Sidewinders were donated to Pakistan in 1964, at the same time all the PAF Starfighters were re-engined with J-79-GE-11 engines. A number of rounds was spent or lost during the 1965 War, so that afterwards the PAF faced an acute shortage of air-to-air missiles. It was not before March 1971 that another batch of some 150 AIM-9Bs was delivered.

I have read somewhere that less than 30% of PAF kills in 71 were made with sidewinders. Early sidewinders may have been better than Russian versions, but they were still crap. I reckon most, if not all, of the winder kills could have been made with cannon.

As for the Mirage:

The Mirage IIIEP was probably the best fighter-interceptor on the Indian Subcontinent of the early 1970s. Equipped with an advanced radar that enabled it even blind low-level navigation, as well as increased internal fuel tankage, it could outfight anything the IAF might have thrown against it. However, Pakistan was in such financial problems at the time, that the PAF Mirage-fleet could not be supported with sufficient amount of spare parts, or proper weapons. Therefore, the whole fleet was to barely make an appearance during the war, when it was mainly used as night interceptor.

Also from the above source.

 

[blain2]

Blain, regarding the AAM's, i reiterate, PAF had AAM on F-6, F-104, as well as sabres! IAF had it on MiG 21 only and the missile itself was practically useless.

Mirage III as it was available in the 60s is the same generation as Mig-21 and F-4.

Radar network of both was patchy and relied on MOUs etc. PAF did not have the highly integrated PADS-77 that it has now. We had a hodge-podge of radars for our GCI network and that is what your side used too.

******************

Blain, i can go on and show how the PAF system was much much more sophisticated compared to what the IAF had to rely on, but it is pointless. I believe you are not going to accept this particular fact.


I am not implying, nor have implied at any point, that not being technologically at par with PAF was a handicap.

I said both sides enjoyed different kinds of advantages. IAF had numerical advantages among others, PAF had technological advantages among others. I would however say to whoever, who implies that as a standard, a small PAF kicked a larger IAF's a$$, that he is talking BS. There were diagonally opposite advantages and disadvantages.

Malay,

I would accept it if it has merit. This is one of the oft-repeated myths because Pakistan was getting US aid. The same hardware that was used by India and Pakistan was used in other conflicts faring well against each other.

As sure as you seem to be, I can guarantee that we only had AIM-9s on Sabres and F-104s in the 65 war. Trust me on this. Even on the F-86s, we did not have the AAM capability on the vast majority of the aircraft.

I doubt you will ever find a post here in which I have put down the IA, IAF or even IN so I am not one of those who claim rubbish. Denial of air superiority was our mission in the 65/71 wars, we did it extremely well in the 65 war and fairly well in the 1971 war in West Pakistan (although IAF were successful in pushing interdiction missions inside of Pakistan).

Let me end by suggesting something. You said "Blain, i can go on and show how the PAF system was much much more sophisticated compared to what the IAF had to rely on, but it is pointless.". I think not. For my own edification and knowledge, I would like to know what IAF had in place during the 65 and 71 wars in terms of the ground based radars etc. I believe you would be pleasantly surprised to learn that both had networks that were fairly similar and comparable. Please do share this information as in my opinion, in contrast to the usual bashing it would be an exercise that would give us all a better understanding of what each side had historically. That would be much better than coming up lists that look like "xAF 2015 and 2020".

 

[Contrarian]

Let me end by suggesting something. You said "Blain, i can go on and show how the PAF system was much much more sophisticated compared to what the IAF had to rely on, but it is pointless.". I think not. For my own edification and knowledge, I would like to know what IAF had in place during the 65 and 71 wars in terms of the ground based radars etc. I believe you would be pleasantly surprised to learn that both had networks that were fairly similar and comparable. Please do share this information as in my opinion, in contrast to the usual bashing it would be an exercise that would give us all a better understanding of what each side had historically. That would be much better than coming up lists that look like "xAF 2015 and 2020".

Alright mate. I get your point. I take some leave for my research on this topic then and will get back.

Regards,
Malay

 

[SherdiL!]

pointless it offtopic of those Indian kids posting about PLAF is far more superior than India will ever come close to China is ahead of India 400years China made its own fighter jets and have tons of them better man power / equipped.PAF vs IAF can be compared but PLAF vs IAF "UNCOMPRABLE".PAF maintain death before disgrace ; IAF lack morales and professionalism who goes to train the military ties wit the army of 128,000 Israeli soliders ? they are using there reserves in Gaza.