PAF vs. IAF Analysis- Air Combat Over the Subcontinent

[fatman17]

PAF Vs IAF: Why are we discussing this again a millionth time? Is there a doubt about it? The last two times the two airforces met , the smaller force gave the bigger force a much harder time against all odds…Any doubt about that ????.....So many neutral International writers have written about it number of times…. I don’t want to waste my efforts again about a fact that is not even a disputable except with few of our friends from across the border….Get over with it now…

I know one thing, if PAF had a kind of an effort that IAF had since independence in terms of number of aircrafts , airfields, force multipliers, infrastructures etc etc , we would have roasted the opponent by now…..These are not mere words…THINK ABOUT IT !!!

O Good GOD, you guys are comparing and thumping chests by comparing yourself with an airforce that is much much smaller than yours in every possible way and you couldnt even handle her….Try picking someone of your own size and then see where you stand ….ta ta

Thanks x_man!!!

 

[Vinod2070]

IAFs doctrine was based on achieving Air Superiority and PAFs was defensive while creating a Favourable Air Situation in time and space….The very fact that IAF couldn’t achieve Air Superiority and PAF kept giving them tough opposition till the end answers this question…

While stats and numbers cannot be ruled out but they provide nothing in the context of achieving ones objective…For example to create a fav air sit at a certain time , if one airforce loses 8 fighters but still achieves the larger objective, it translates into that it did her job….

Don’t chase the numbers… they can be very deceptive…Look at the overall task that an air is designed to do…..If it couldn’t achieve that despite low attrition , its still a failure on her part…

While 71 was a political failure for us, PAF managed to deny IAFs Air Superiority and kept flying in her own airspace and provided the opposition that was required out of her….

I agree with this completely. It is not about numbers but about meeting the objectives.

That is where I believe IAF achieved its objectives in the 1971 war leading to the overall success of the war effort. But again it will be preferable to avoid going through the same arguments once more.

 

[Contrarian]

While in all this dick measuring contest, i would just add one indisputable fact.

PAF has always without exception had superior equipment. It has always been a technologically advanced PAF against a technologically inferior but numerically superior IAF.
This has been a consistent situation till the late 90's. Now however, IAF is technologically superior as well as numerically superior.

So chest thumping on either side does not really mean anything, there have been pro's and cons for either side.

 

[hj786]

While in all this dick measuring contest, i would just add one indisputable fact.

PAF has always without exception had superior equipment. It has always been a technologically advanced PAF against a technologically inferior but numerically superior IAF.
This has been a consistent situation till the late 90's. Now however, IAF is technologically superior as well as numerically superior.

So chest thumping on either side does not really mean anything, there have been pro's and cons for either side.

Yes, this is a stupid dick measuring contest. Apart from that, your post is BS. That is far from an indisputable fact. You make it sound like PAF had F-16s in 65 and 71!

Do you Indians seriously expect Pakistanis to roll over and say "Yes InAF is superior to PAF! India can take over Pakistan whenever it likes" when Pakistan's own (decorated) pilots say that is not the case? What kind of people do you think we are? If your answer to that question is the typical "terrorist porkis/pukees" Indian kiddie BS, then you can piss off back to BRF and IDF (if it's back up by now).

What has been said is all that can be said:
a) Pakistanis, including PAF (instructor) pilots big up the PAF.
b) American pilot bigs up the above PAF instructor pilots.
b) Indians don't want to believe it.
I hope the InAF commanders have a similar attitude to the Indians here - it will make PAF's job a lot easier in the event of a conflict.

I request this thread is locked by a moderator - it is time to stop this madness.

 

[ahmeddsid]

Yes, this is a stupid dick measuring contest. Apart from that, your post is BS. That is far from an indisputable fact. You make it sound like PAF had F-16s in 65 and 71!

Do you Indians seriously expect Pakistanis to roll over and say "Yes InAF is superior to PAF!" when Pakistan's own (decorated) pilots says that is not the case? What the hell kind of people do you think we are? If your answer to that question is the typical "terrorist porkis/pukees", then you can piss off back to BRF and IDF (if it's back up by now).

What has been said is all that can be said:
a) Pakistanis, including PAF (instructor) pilots big up the PAF.
b) American pilot bigs up the above PAF instructor pilots.
b) Indians don't want to believe it.
I hope the InAF commanders have a similar attitude to the Indians here - it will make PAF's job a lot easier in the event of a conflict.

I request this thread is locked by a moderator - please stop this madness.

Dick measuring contests are started by dicks who have an inferiority complex! I am an Indian and I believe PAF is not inferior, and is an effective defence unit! Ask that to the guy who (a fellow pakistani) who started this measuring contest! God Speed.

 

[hj786]

The guy who started this "contest" posted an article stating that InAF seems superior to PAF, nevertheless PAF can defend against it. Seems pretty similar to your view, sir - I welcome your views as an Indian, as long as you don't expect Pakistanis to pander to them. I don't know why this discussion got out of hand and I don't care. Seems to me it was started by somebody saying PAF pilots are better than InAF pilots and Indians trying to prove him wrong. That kind of statement should have "In My Opinion" written in front of it.

 

[blain2]

The comment by the IAF commander at red flag was obviously a pep talk, to boost the morale of his charges.

No serious person would underestimate the Pakistani military or it's air force. I disagree with the implicit assumption that man to man a Pakistani would be naturally better than an Indian or vice versa. It is not borne out by the facts. I like to go by facts and not opinions and rhetoric.

So the assumption here that PAF fighter pilot is better than his Indian counterpart can only be proven either in a war or in a realistic war game scenario involving both. Not by the opinions of someone who is an interested party to boot.

There has been the same assumption by many members about the respective special forces and it was again not borne out by the facts when a realistic competition was held in South Africa.

Both special forces did very well, better than most developed countries but Indian forces trumped Pakistani forces there. The results were recently shared on some thread here and Indian forces came out tops on all but one parameter.

You still had some stupid internet warrior claiming the Indian special forces were incompetent in the Mumbai blasts thread!

Nobody is claiming that Indians stink at their job. Our responses are usually to bring a reality check back into the discussion when people on your side start going off in the lala land about the abilities and capabilities of the IAF.

On the issue of the Airborne Africa, I posted the results (keep one thing in mind, Indians came in second, we were fourth, however for us it was the first ever AA participation, you guys had been there before knew the format, had trained for the events with that understanding...the South Africans came in first and Dutch were third. Not a bad showing for any side. Also to note, we have fought 3 wars now. Aside from the one in 1971 in which we had severe limitations in EP, Pakistan and India have always fought each other to a stalemate (this was also the case in 1971 on the West Pakistan side). We have our plus points and you guys have yours.

Your comment about the "stupid" Internet warriors on our side is fair, however we can't really control what a 16-20 year old can or cannot write based on his own limited understanding. My sole issue is what I have stated before. There is a lot of underestimation by even mature Indians here and elsewhere.

 

[blain2]

Much of what you are saying is pure myths.

Do go through the thread on the 1971 air war and prove how it was Pakistan that emerged better.

I have seen just 3 things from Pakistani side about this: Some Youtube video of a BBC interview where some pilots are making some claims on their airbase, some quotes by a USAF general who was an interested party and was proven to have been biased on that thread. One more is supposedly some random claim by some USAF senior person to someone's uncle that Sargodha is the best training institute for air force!

Do present if you have something beyond that.

What facts are you looking for? PAF took to the air in both 65 and 71 against overwhelming odds. You guys were trained by the British the same way we were initially. You have had more regular infusion of technology ever since the partition than us. If your pilots are so awesome now as most here and on every other forum claim, what was holding them back from being so awesome before?

Now lets take the issue of claims of aircraft downed away from this debate, now tell me being the bigger and more capable airforce, why was the IAF not able to decimate the PAF in either wars? You guys should have been able to shut us out in all of the previous wars. For us holding you guys to a stalemate is sufficient as we are the underdogs, but in actuality we did better than a stalemate. We denied air superiority to your air force in both wars over theaters where we contended for supremacy. That was our mission and even though we were handicapped in terms of our numbers, we leveled the playing field in other ways.

You are talking about us using 3 things (there are way more than 3 sources), well how about you guys bringing things to counter this? How come you guys are incapable of countering these references with other sources? Suddenly you folks are going nuts over receiving some compliments from the American side and spare no opportunity to display that, why is it that these American compliments are the only truth? The General that we quote is not like most pilots. He has 18000 hours flying more aircraft with more pilots of diverse background than anyone else that I know of. So lets not discount him so easily here.

Did you read the comments of the F-16 IP that I posted above? How about that as a source? The point simply is that while you guys are good, we are aware of it. We do not take the IAF threat lightly and the Indian fanboys here need to understand this. If we did not take the IAF seriously, I doubt that we would be recounting the performance of the PAF as we do now.

 

[waraich66]

Nobody is claiming that Indians stink at their job. Our responses are usually to bring a reality check back into the discussion when people on your side start going off in the lala land about the abilities and capabilities of the IAF.

On the issue of the Airborne Africa, I posted the results (keep one thing in mind, Indians came in second, we were fourth, however for us it was the first ever AA participation, you guys had been there before knew the format, had trained for the events with that understanding...the South Africans came in first and Dutch were third. Not a bad showing for any side. Also to note, we have fought 3 wars now. Aside from the one in 1971 in which we had severe limitations in EP, Pakistan and India have always fought each other to a stalemate (this was also the case in 1971 on the West Pakistan side). We have our plus points and you guys have yours.

Your comment about the "stupid" Internet warriors on our side is fair, however we can't really control what a 16-20 year old can or cannot write based on his own limited understanding. My sole issue is what I have stated before. There is a lot of underestimation by even mature Indians here and elsewhere.

blain,

Agreed, I have tried to get membership of indian defence forum but they rejected ,i think it is greatness of pakistan defence forum allowed them membership.

 

[blain2]

While in all this dick measuring contest, i would just add one indisputable fact.

PAF has always without exception had superior equipment. It has always been a technologically advanced PAF against a technologically inferior but numerically superior IAF.
This has been a consistent situation till the late 90's. Now however, IAF is technologically superior as well as numerically superior.

So chest thumping on either side does not really mean anything, there have been pro's and cons for either side.

This is an Indian myth that you guys have allowed to perpetuate as a counter to what we say. Tell me one instance where we had superior equipment? In the 1965 war, we had sabres and 10 F-104s. To counter that, your IAF flew Hunter and you had already received Mig-21s which was a better aircraft than the F-104. Any which way you look at it, it was as even in terms of quality of aircraft as it comes. You may want to dig up the performance stats of the types I am quoting above and you will find that IAF aircraft were just as good or slightly better than what PAF mustered.

During the 1971 war, you guys flew Mig-21s in large numbers which were again similar to the Mirage IIIs, and better than the F-6s and F-86s that we flew along with surviving F-104s. You were in no way outclassed technologically. In reverse over Golan, our pilots flying Hawker Hunters had taken down supersonic Mirage IIIs of the IAF. So the aircraft on either side had enough capability...the issue was who was pushing the limits. Your IAF had greater numbers and could generate more sorties but that advantage was not realized over West Pakistan. Claiming victory over a single sqn (14) in East Pakistan who went down fighting and shot down quite a few IAF aircraft in the air as well as conducting raids against aircraft on the ground is debatable.

I am all for no chest thumping, however every now and then, people on both sides claim stuff which needs to be put into proper context.

 

[Muradk]

The US F-16 IP was talking about Khatak Ail Kuli. he is 6 ft 3".

 

[blain2]

The US F-16 IP was talking about Khatak Ail Kuli. he is 6 ft 3".

Yes he was. He mentioned Khattak to me

You sure its Ali Quli Khan Khattak and not his brother? I thought the former was the CGS Pakistan Army.

The IP definitely remembered the Khattak name. Thus he mentioned that they did not use first names.

 

[fatman17]

Sources:

The Prisidio Concise Guide to Soviet Military Aircraft - Bill Sweetman, 1981

page 80-81
Mikoyan - Gurevich MiG-19 Farmer:
History & Notes:
...and currently forms the back-bone of the Chinese tactical air force in its Shenyang F-6 version. in the hands of Pakistan Air Force pilots it has proved its worth against considerably more modern and more costly opponents, with agility in combat which would do credit to a contemporary air superiority fighter.....the Pakistani aircraft have been modified with launch pylons for AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles, and another good feature is the hard-hitting gun armamant.....

JANE'S ALL THE WORLD'S AIRCRAFT 1975-76 - 66 ISSUE.
page 30-31
State Aircraft Factory - Shenyang F-6.
....the capability of China's aircraft industry has been revealed most openly by study of the F-6 single-seat day fighters supplied to Pakistan. Generally similar to the Soviet MiG-19SF. The F-6s equipped three front-line squadrons of the Pakistan Air Force (Nos, 11,23 and 25) at the time of the 1971 war with India. they were credited with the destruction of twelve (12) enemy aircraft made up of one MiG-21, eight Su-7s and three Hunters for the loss of three F-6s.
A assessment of the F-6 by a western observer described the general standard of workmanship of the airframe as very good. At low altitudes this fighter was said to outmanoeuver any type of combat fighter in service in Asia except the F-86 and to out-climb the MiG-21 and F-104 Starfighter. The potential of the Pakistani F-6s has been much enhanced by supplementing their standard cannon armament with two sidewinder missiles.....

this takes a lot of research, i shall provide more. no pakistani sources and no wikipedia.

 

[blain2]

This is the book to be had for another non-Pakistani source:

Amazon.com: Air Warfare in the Missile Age: Lon O. Nordeen: Books

 

[x_man]

Yes he was. He mentioned Khattak to me

You sure its Ali Quli Khan Khattak and not his brother? I thought the former was the CGS Pakistan Army.

The IP definitely remembered the Khattak name. Thus he mentioned that they did not use first names.

Blain he was Wing Commander Ali Kuli Khan Khattak ( AKKK) …he later commanded a Mirage squadron , No.8 perhaps and left airforce few years later….