PAF Today: Implications for India - Gp Capt B Menon

[cerberus]

Don't Understand Contest of Mentioning PLAAF By OP(He Entitled to His Views I guess) into the Thread Here When
The Title Is

"Pakistan Air Force Today: Implications for India"

IF Op wants to Relate the Total strategic Equation in to One thread
Rather Quote
USAF+IAF+JASDF=PAF+PLAAF There you have Actual Geopolitical Equation
@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @PARIKRAMA

Its Rather to See the Analysis Solely Based on Taking PLAAF Vs IAF Contest which i Find rather Amusing Quite Misleading From Title of the Thread

 

[Muhammad Omar]

i didn't knew that J-20 and J-10 C are options were available for Pakistan

 

[Moon]

For Bold Part: How do the numbers tilt favor in PAF and PLAAF favor? Are you envisaging a dual front combat? Then it will be just a MAYBE. You really don't understand the thing about the two front war - do you? The material help from West will come immediately, without questions. Why, and just why do you think we are slumbering along without undue worries of China coming to rescue of Pakistan? Because even China, my friend, is not that stupid! It will give you all the lip service you need, but when push comes to a shove, you wont find friends around you. That's a hard fact that you have seen in 1971 yet don't want to learn.

Next about the range, what makes you think that a 400 Km range gives you an advantage against a robust C3I2 capability opposing you in terms of surveillance platforms across spectrum, be they space based or atmosphere based or SIGINT?

Underlined part: I like that ...... 'I'm busy right' as if someone is prodding you to write, I get your sentiment man, its fun to write your views .... lol hope it is worthwhile and interesting .. not boring old job mate !!! Cheers
regards

For numbers, regarding AEWC, IAF still doesn't have a clean advantage over the PAF, alone the PLA-AF.
May I ask how many tanks, planes and foreign troops were given to India in 1962? It's you who hasn't learnt from History. Don't bother pulling the lip-service card.

I take your point but all of what I have said is in the near future, today will soon be yesterday, time doesn't stand still things are always influx for all sides. In 20-21 months the IAF will have Rafales, in 18 months the IAF will have 1-2 SQNs of LCA Mk.1s, in 30 months it will start to get Mk.1As with AESA radars.

You'll note that I haven't talked about the FGFA or AMCA which are, agreed, a long away off.

I was responding to the remark that India had lost its "qualitative edge vis-a-vis the PAF and the PLAAF".

I take your point but all of what I have said is in the near future, today will soon be yesterday, time doesn't stand still things are always influx for all sides. In 20-21 months the IAF will have Rafales, in 18 months the IAF will have 1-2 SQNs of LCA Mk.1s, in 30 months it will start to get Mk.1As with AESA radars.

You'll note that I haven't talked about the FGFA or AMCA which are, agreed, a long away off.

I was responding to the remark that India had lost its "qualitative edge vis-a-vis the PAF and the PLAAF".

Agreed, nothing remains the same, but PAF won't be dozing off either, the Thunder's third block will be rolling out soon, wonder what goodies it might have, PAF will be acquiring more Blk-52s, whilst a proper logistics setup and pilot training for the Rafale, which could take up to a decade. As for the Flankers yes they are strong birds, but, I've heard that they have a big down time. Nearly 50 percent.
The rest is the whole cruise missile thingy, but that isn't related to the Air warfare.

 

[Trisonics]

respectfully, this is just the soothing ointment that may give temporary relief to some PAF fan boys. The articles is full of mistakes..rather lies.

 

[Tipu7]

There are many ''weak'' point in above piece of writing.....................

PAF don't have quality Edge on IAF yet. Although PAF have greatly reduced the margin of strength and will keep reducing in near future but still the Gap is simply very large.

We can balance or if possible even surpass the IAF in the form of Quality, but in Quantity IAF will remain larger force even if LCA program face more delays.

PAF need some serious steps if it really want match IAF in quality. Some systems already exists and more measure are needed in near future to nullify the PAF IAF quality edge as IAF is suffering from Delaying issues for the time being

1:We need to replace 12 squadrons by 2020 of legacy fighters by Jf17 and F16. We will be producing 24 Jf17 per year and we can induct surplus F16 from USA-Europe after MLU. This is the fastest and most efficent way of getting rid of legacy fighters in given time frame while keeping the advantage of Quality and quantity at balance.

2:We need to upgrade our Falcon fleet with AIM9X and IRST pod and weapon stations related to passive guidance systems. This is something which our falcon fleet lacks and need desperately.

3: We need to install IFR probe to Jf17 and need advance Targeting and ECM pods for Thunder fleet of Blk 1-2. IFR installation will free crucial hardpoints for carrying more munition. Also, Jf17 will achieve true multirole mission profile.
Central hardpoint for Targeting/ECM/IRST pod, 2 hardpoints for precise munition, 2 hardpoints for WVR and remaining two for BVR air to air missiles. Idea of Dual racks for housing two air to air missiles is also in piepeline. If these abilities are introduced than Jf17 will be able to strike at BVR, WVR as well as ground targets at the same time!

(Below Jf17 with IFR probe installed on Serial 229 for testing and evaluation)

(Below J10A with SD10 stationed on dual racks)

4: We need to make Blk3 a true 4+G aircraft. Like integrated IRST, HMCS, AESA, ECM capabilities,HOBS missiles (A Darter) and NG BVRAAM. Integration of RAAD cruise missile as Air Launched Cruise missile will be crucial.

5: We need a 4++ Generation aircraft. As a counter balance to Rafale. IAF will gain great boast by inducting Rafale. We need to counter balance it with similar generation platform in similar numbers. We need small number of High quality aircraft. Be it F16 Blk60 or b it Su35, need is there.

6: We have 4 ZDK03 and 2 Saab 2000 AWACS. We need two more AWACS inorder to recover the loss of two. 4 Il78 MRT are enough for now, as we have YET to install IFR probe. Once the number of aircrafts with ability to refuel in air will increase, number of tankers will increase too.

7: We are doing fine in the field of drone. Before 2020, PAF must have dedicated drone system which should be capable of Day-Night all weather operations and can be used for combat as well as recon. Considering the fact that IAF is interested and pursuing MQ1 Predator drone we should keep an eye on Chinese CH4 drone which carries AKD-10, YZ-200 air-to-surface missiles and LS-6 Satellite Aided Guided Bomb with the nose mounted electro-optical seekers to destroy targets at ground. As per Globalpost.com, we already have four Units in our arsenal for evaluation purpose.

8: In the field of SAM, we got Hq7B, we got Spada2000, we are getting Hq16, we have Hq9 (rumored). In air defense by 2020 we are doing fine. The combo of these four systems provide us multi layer, multi altitude air defense against aggressive air force

9: Indian air defense is threat particularity S400 which will be operational by that time. Specific threats need specific measures. We should keep an eye on Turkish Koral jamming system developed by Aselsan as a counter to long range SAM systems.

If PAF manage to follow up all above mentioned points, then it will have enough capability to take on IAF head on in any major aerial conflict. It will be able to match IAF in quality and IAF quantity will be due to presence of legacy fighters like Mig21 which pose no threat.

By 2020 PAF must be operating,

1: 110 F16 in total with 36 Blk50-52
2: 190+ Jf17 with 16 Blk III.
3: F7PG in three squadrons awaiting replacement
4: 36 4++Generation platform (if possible)
5: 8 AWACS
6: 4 Tankers

That PAF will be enough capable to not only deliver bloody nose to IAF but as well as punching knock out punch.
And PLAAF role will be an extra plus point, after all PAF and PLAAF have history of cooperation in drills which should be tested in real combat

Instead of Talking about Nukes and Missiles we should develop our conventional ability to such a state that we should be able to beat the enemy with conventional force only .

@Manticore @Windjammer @MastanKhan @WAJsal @Side-Winder @Zarvan
@Quwa

 

[cerberus]

Hi,

I will say this again, I admire your enthusiasm. I have been following your post on Rafael drama for the past two years now and honestly speaking (bluntly) getting sick and tired of it. Talk when you have Rafel and FGFA or The AMCA( which is still in drawing board) if you go at war with China where do you STAND now

Yes We are in Very Good Position China Has Lots Ambitions Which Bound to Attract Lot of Adversaries
Yes SCS im Talking Here
+ We had Natural Advantage Due to Himalayan Terrain China Has Limited Chance of Full Conventional war There

And Yes I Know Were thread Is going, Pakistan Shooting on the Shoulder of China Well the Game is Reversed By India+US+Japan Equation Which Made Chinese Shivering For some time

Look At the Propaganda Machine of CCP it will Give you Slight Hint


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-30978185
China media: India-US ties 'superficial'

We can balance or if possible even surpass the IAF in the form of Quality,

Explain in Detail What Technical Edge you Posses on IAF
Im ready to here Technical Aspect of you Statement

 

[GEMINI]

"This article indirectly stresses for the need of rafale so pakistanis should not start thumping chests. IAF is modernizing with heavy weight multirole fighters even though they are not a 1;1 replacement, its a massive enhancement of capability a fact carefully cloaked in the conclusion"

Did you all bother reading the whole article and the reference link given there in?
OP has clearly written the above para at the end from his own side. The article is written in an indian website by an indian and is nothing more than an attempt to lobbying for more planes.

 

[Syed Asif Bukhari]

There are many ''weak'' point in above piece of writing.....................

PAF don't have quality Edge on IAF yet. Although PAF have greatly reduced the margin of strength and will keep reducing in near future but still the Gap is simply very large.

We can balance or if possible even surpass the IAF in the form of Quality, but in Quantity IAF will remain larger force even if LCA program face more delays.

PAF need some serious steps if it really want match IAF in quality. Some systems already exists and more measure are needed in near future to nullify the PAF IAF quality edge as IAF is suffering from Delaying issues for the time being

1:We need to replace 12 squadrons by 2020 of legacy fighters by Jf17 and F16.

2:We need to upgrade our Falcon fleet with AIM9X and IRST pod and weapon stations related to passive guidance systems. This is something which our falcon fleet lacks and need desperately.

3: We need to install IFR probe to Jf17 and need advance Targeting and ECM pods for Thunder fleet of Blk 1-2. IFR installation will free crucial hardpoints for carrying more munition. Also, Jf17 will achieve true multirole mission profile.
Central hardpoint for Targeting/ECM/IRST pod, 2 hardpoints for precise munition, 2 hardpoints for WVR and remaining two for BVR air to air missiles. Idea of Dual racks for housing two air to air missiles is also in piepeline. If these abilities are introduced than Jf17 will be able to strike at BVR, WVR as well as ground targets at the same time!

4: We need to make Blk3 a true 4+G aircraft. Like integrated IRST, HMCS, AESA, ECM capabilities,HOBS missiles (A Darter) and NG BVRAAM. Integration of RAAD cruise missile as Air Launched Cruise missile will be crucial.

5: We need a 4++ Generation aircraft. As a counter balance to Rafale. IAF will gain great boast by inducting Rafale. We need to counter balance it with similar generation platform in similar numbers. We need small number of High quality aircraft. Be it F16 Blk60 or b it Su35, need is there.

6: We have 4 ZDK03 and 2 Saab 2000 AWACS. We need two more AWACS inorder to recover the loss of two. 4 Il78 MRT are enough for now, as we have YET to install IFR probe. Once the number of aircrafts with ability to refuel in air will increase, number of tankers will increase too.

View attachment 301241

7: We are doing fine in the field of drone. Before 2020, PAF must have dedicated drone system which should be capable of Day-Night all weather operations and can be used for combat as well as recon. Considering the fact that IAF is interested and pursuing MQ1 Predator drone we should keep an eye on Chinese CH4 drone which carries AKD-10, YZ-200 air-to-surface missiles and LS-6 Satellite Aided Guided Bomb with the nose mounted electro-optical seekers to destroy targets at ground. As per Globalpost.com, we already have four Units in our arsenal for evaluation purpose.

View attachment 301242

8: In the field of SAM, we got Hq7B, we got Spada2000, we are getting Hq16, we have Hq9 (rumored). In air defense by 2020 we are doing fine. The combo of these four systems provide us multi layer, multi altitude air defense against aggressive air force

View attachment 301240

9: Indian air defense is threat particularity S400 which will be operational by that time. Specific threats need specific measures. We should keep an eye on Turkish Koral jamming system developed by Aselsan as a counter to long range SAM systems.

View attachment 301239

If PAF manage to follow up all above mentioned points, then it will have enough capability to take on IAF head on in any major aerial conflict. It will be able to match IAF in quality and IAF quantity will be due to presence of legacy fighters like Mig21 which pose no threat.

By 2020 PAF must be operating,

1: 110 F16 in total with 36 Blk50-52
2: 190+ Jf17 with 16 Blk III.
3: F7PG in three squadrons awaiting replacement
4: 36 4++Generation platform (if possible)
5: 8 AWACS
6: 4 Tankers

That PAF will be enough capable to not only deliver bloody nose to IAF but as well as punching knock out punch.
And PLAAF role will be an extra plus point, after all PAF and PLAAF have history of cooperation in drills which should be tested in real combat

Instead of Talking about Nukes and Missiles we should develop our conventional ability to such a state that we should be able to beat the enemy with conventional force only .

@Manticore @Windjammer @MastanKhan @WAJsal @Side-Winder @Zarvan
@Quwa

Hi I am new here . can you tell me how to start a new thread ?

 

[Tipu7]

Explain in Detail What Technical Edge you Posses on IAF
Im ready to here Technical Aspect of you Statement

Re read what I said.
I am talking about Near Future, not present time. Currently PAF lags behind IAF by margins in both quantity and quality .

 

[Hellfire]

For numbers, regarding AEWC, IAF still doesn't have a clean advantage over the PAF, alone the PLA-AF.

Same statement in different version. I specifically quoted you to ask YOU to explain your statement, wherein you claimed AWACs and AEWs superiority over IAF!!!! LOL!!!!! And now also you just claimed without giving a rationale or reasoned statement. Again a deflection. I get it, its a waste of time to ask you, you clearly will keep repeating the statement without substantiating anything. As if your 400 Kms gives you coverage over the entire Indian airspace ....


@Abingdonboy on an unrelated topic, I found the video of 34 Volunteer Company of SFF , the pure women's team there. We had a discussion on this wherein you disputed my claim of women being in combat role in SFF. Didn't name the outfit at the time as was unsure whether it was in public domain, but now sending you the link

May I ask how many tanks, planes and foreign troops were given to India in 1962? It's you who hasn't learnt from History. Don't bother pulling the lip-service card.

In turn, may I ask how many tank battles were fought in 1962? How many air engagements took place? (Hint: The answer is --------> NIL) As for foreign troops, India didn't ask for troops and instead asked for aid in terms of air lift and air drop capabilities for small arms and ammunition for troops fighting, and this WAS provided. C-130s of US undertook these missions, carrying the arms and ammunitions needed, in response to pleas from Nehru.

As for the bold part, stand in front of the mirror and say that to your self. You have no idea of facts and are forming your sentence without any base.

Good day to you

 

[salarsikander]

Why u pakistanis always bring china in india factor. Any of previous war with india china helped you

Hi,
Kid spend at least week, get used to of the forum and then come and talk!

Do you even know the topic at hand we are discussing, this is not some tu tu mai mai mohalla type debate.

Deny it or not, IAF will always keep China factor in its modernization pace, hence that is why it was included

US+Japan

These both countries are miles away from you, and trust me no one them will come to your aid. Indians Will fight this war ( if theres any) on their own

 

[Zarvan]

There are many ''weak'' point in above piece of writing.....................

PAF don't have quality Edge on IAF yet. Although PAF have greatly reduced the margin of strength and will keep reducing in near future but still the Gap is simply very large.

We can balance or if possible even surpass the IAF in the form of Quality, but in Quantity IAF will remain larger force even if LCA program face more delays.

PAF need some serious steps if it really want match IAF in quality. Some systems already exists and more measure are needed in near future to nullify the PAF IAF quality edge as IAF is suffering from Delaying issues for the time being

1:We need to replace 12 squadrons by 2020 of legacy fighters by Jf17 and F16.

2:We need to upgrade our Falcon fleet with AIM9X and IRST pod and weapon stations related to passive guidance systems. This is something which our falcon fleet lacks and need desperately.

3: We need to install IFR probe to Jf17 and need advance Targeting and ECM pods for Thunder fleet of Blk 1-2. IFR installation will free crucial hardpoints for carrying more munition. Also, Jf17 will achieve true multirole mission profile.
Central hardpoint for Targeting/ECM/IRST pod, 2 hardpoints for precise munition, 2 hardpoints for WVR and remaining two for BVR air to air missiles. Idea of Dual racks for housing two air to air missiles is also in piepeline. If these abilities are introduced than Jf17 will be able to strike at BVR, WVR as well as ground targets at the same time!

4: We need to make Blk3 a true 4+G aircraft. Like integrated IRST, HMCS, AESA, ECM capabilities,HOBS missiles (A Darter) and NG BVRAAM. Integration of RAAD cruise missile as Air Launched Cruise missile will be crucial.

5: We need a 4++ Generation aircraft. As a counter balance to Rafale. IAF will gain great boast by inducting Rafale. We need to counter balance it with similar generation platform in similar numbers. We need small number of High quality aircraft. Be it F16 Blk60 or b it Su35, need is there.

6: We have 4 ZDK03 and 2 Saab 2000 AWACS. We need two more AWACS inorder to recover the loss of two. 4 Il78 MRT are enough for now, as we have YET to install IFR probe. Once the number of aircrafts with ability to refuel in air will increase, number of tankers will increase too.

View attachment 301241

7: We are doing fine in the field of drone. Before 2020, PAF must have dedicated drone system which should be capable of Day-Night all weather operations and can be used for combat as well as recon. Considering the fact that IAF is interested and pursuing MQ1 Predator drone we should keep an eye on Chinese CH4 drone which carries AKD-10, YZ-200 air-to-surface missiles and LS-6 Satellite Aided Guided Bomb with the nose mounted electro-optical seekers to destroy targets at ground. As per Globalpost.com, we already have four Units in our arsenal for evaluation purpose.

View attachment 301242

8: In the field of SAM, we got Hq7B, we got Spada2000, we are getting Hq16, we have Hq9 (rumored). In air defense by 2020 we are doing fine. The combo of these four systems provide us multi layer, multi altitude air defense against aggressive air force

View attachment 301240

9: Indian air defense is threat particularity S400 which will be operational by that time. Specific threats need specific measures. We should keep an eye on Turkish Koral jamming system developed by Aselsan as a counter to long range SAM systems.

View attachment 301239

If PAF manage to follow up all above mentioned points, then it will have enough capability to take on IAF head on in any major aerial conflict. It will be able to match IAF in quality and IAF quantity will be due to presence of legacy fighters like Mig21 which pose no threat.

By 2020 PAF must be operating,

1: 110 F16 in total with 36 Blk50-52
2: 190+ Jf17 with 16 Blk III.
3: F7PG in three squadrons awaiting replacement
4: 36 4++Generation platform (if possible)
5: 8 AWACS
6: 4 Tankers

That PAF will be enough capable to not only deliver bloody nose to IAF but as well as punching knock out punch.
And PLAAF role will be an extra plus point, after all PAF and PLAAF have history of cooperation in drills which should be tested in real combat

Instead of Talking about Nukes and Missiles we should develop our conventional ability to such a state that we should be able to beat the enemy with conventional force only .

@Manticore @Windjammer @MastanKhan @WAJsal @Side-Winder @Zarvan
@Quwa

We definitely need around 50 Fighter Jets like SU-35 or Euro Fighter. J-10 C can also come along with one I mentioned earlier. In Air Defence HQ-9 and HQ-16 are great boost but still more are needed like Pantsir S-2 and MEADS from Italy. Finally for AWACS well if we need two more than KJ-500 is way forward.

 

[Moon]

Same statement in different version. I specifically quoted you to ask YOU to explain your statement. Again a deflection.



In turn, may I ask how many tank battles were fought in 1962? How many air engagements took place? (Hint: The answer is --------> NIL) As for foreign troops, India didn't ask for troops and instead asked for aid in terms of air lift and air drop capabilities for small arms and ammunition for troops fighting, and this WAS provided. C-130s of US undertook these missions, carrying the arms and ammunitions needed, in response to pleas from Nehru.

As for the bold part, stand in front of the mirror and say that to your self. You have no idea of facts and are forming your sentence without any base.

Good day to you

Still, was India given critical equipment, yes it was a limited war, but a future engagement with China would be limited to an area, and yes India will be forced to deploy critical equipment in the battlefield.
As for the "stand infront of the mirror" part that's the deflection, you haven't bothered with a proper debate, let alone a statement, I don't needneed to explain my own statement, if you aren't able to comprehend, then that isn't my fault, consult someone.
Have a good one.

 

[monitor]

 

[MadDog]

Has it?

Heavy weight-----IAF- Su-30 MKI------PAF- nil------PLA(AF)- Su-30MKK---> MKI is supreme here
Medium weight-----IAF- Rafale------PAF- F-16 Blk.52------PLA(AF)- J-10---> Rafale is supreme here
Light weight-----IAF- LCA------PAF- JF-17------PLA(AF)- nil---> negligable differences but the LCA MK.1A will have an AESA from 2018 onwards- this is pretty game-changing in itself.

AWACS ----IAF-A-50EI PHALCON-----PAF- ERIEYE/ZDK-03------PLA(AF)- KJ-2000--> PHALCON is supreme here



@PARIKRAMA @MilSpec @nair @anant_s @ni8mare

LMAO, man you're hillarious. Rafale isn't even inducted yet, LCA doesn't even have a operational sqadron yet, and you talk about Phalcons, you have 3 Phalcon AWACS in service, while PAF has 3 SAAB Erieye AWACS + 4 ZDK-03 AWACS, a total of 7 AWACS, while the Swedish Erieye alone has a detection range of 450 km...Welcome to the real world, not everything is bollywood...Now let this sink in and don't blabber without doing proper research next time !!!