Victories are meant to be boosted and celebrated. We dont stop India to celebrate or boost about the 1971 Liberation War of Bangladesh.
Uhh.. so by that logic Pakistanis can boast about 1965 war because they won it?
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Victories are meant to be boosted and celebrated. We dont stop India to celebrate or boost about the 1971 Liberation War of Bangladesh.
PAF was the better force due to its training and the highly efficient use of its modest air assets and for that the credit still goes to PAF.
Numbers do matter and despite the numerical disadvantage PAF did a very fine job by any standard. Even in 71 PAF was still a thorn in the side and had a good kill ratio go boast.
In 65 it was the superior tactics, clinical execution and aggression which made PAF come on top in overall exchange between the two forces.
You can bring in the best aces to teach and attempt to run a high quality training facility but at the end of the day if the student is deficient in skill, motivation and confidence, he will not become a great.
Just like in sports, we have had great players as coaches for both Pakistan and India and still we managed to suck in many tournaments!
It is the entire scope of the operational and training doctrine and its implementation which has to click in order to produce a force which is second to none and PAF achieved this because of its leaders and its personel.
In addition to the pilots the air technicians and the support staff was brilliant in keeping the planes in the air and supporting multiple sorties. This was all due to the high skill and motivation of the troops and not just due to training.
PAF had great leaders like Asghar Khan and Noor Khan who have the respect of many people around the globe and were through professionals and legendary fighter pilots in their own right with a clinical attention to detail and planning throughout their careers.
These were the men of steel who made the difference and ensured that PAF was prepared to utilize its resources in an efficient and lethal fashion in case it went to war against superior numbers.
It is this genuine sense of accomplishment which makes PAF still a confident force despite the equipment and numerical disadvantage it faces.
One should not live in the history but drawing inspiration from history is not foolish, it is a very wise thing to do in face of adversity.
Surely one should not forget the lesson that skill, motivation and aggression still matter when we talk about air warfare.
It is not that IAF was a force which was toothless, their quality of opposition was the very reason that we pride ourselves in our performance.
And calling me implicitly a "wise-arse" isn't flaming and trolling?
Even Indians have heard Pakistanis numerous times boasting about PAF aerial victories as if they actually won the 1965 war. Why don't they boast about the 'heroics' of the Pakistani Army during the Battle of Asal Uttar and Operation Gibraltar?
Uhh.. so by that logic Pakistanis can boast about 1965 war because they won it?
I like to mention my sources before making general remarks. Unfortunately, my likeness for sources is not shared by others it seems.
Battles don't matter much in a war, its the outcome of the War that matters. I do hope u know the difference between a battle & war ??
For us the outcome of the 65 war is more important as Indians did not succeed in the designs which they had woven for Pakistan. So for us 65 war was a win as we did not let our enemy get what it wanted. As a defender this is the main objective of any army to not let the aggressor enemy gain a foothold which can give it an advantage.
And in 65 war, the air battle was definitely won by PAF comparing it to the strength & superiority of IAF, which could not do anything decisive.
And by that logic India won the 1971 War because Bangladeshi rebels won it for them?
As the term general remark implies...it is not specific to a certain source hence it is a general remark and is based on my study of various sources including the accounts of Chuck yeager, the comments of Israeli air chief etc. and not just Pakistani sources.
Regarding your likeness for sources, it seems you have not displayed it as well so why disappointed in others?
Anyways, my point is also simple enough.
IAF was trapped by PAF and that can also be indirectly concluded from the one Indian source you have posted about.
Even though few aircraft were available, Noor Khan ordered sorties immediately in order to open the hornets nest and entice the IAF to pounce upon PAF bases and the ensuing engagements resulted in the high attrition of IAF, which is an achievement when seen in light of its reasonable numerical advantage over PAF.
These are all facts and i think are disputed by none.
PAF superiority over IAF was a reality of the war...i did not say complete air superiority or air dominance...given its numbers, this was impossible for PAF, so within its numbers what it did was outstanding.
Between two strong forces the one that loses is usually the one that is forced into making mistakes and that is what is measured by history in the end. If IAF made mistakes, it was made to pay for the mistakes by PAF which actually enticed it to make many of the mistakes, despite being at numerical disadvantage.
It seems very simple for folks who read it as a story but such decisions and plans need a lot to execute especially when the enemy is not a walkover but has a larger force.
India crossed the IB on 6th Sept. 1965 in response to Pakistans Operation Grand Slam, which was initiated by Pakistan in response to Indias take over of Haji Pir, which again was in response to Pakistans Operation Gibraltar. This sequence of events is attested by Pakistani writers themselves.Battles don't matter much in a war, its the outcome of the War that matters. I do hope u know the difference between a battle & war ??
For us the outcome of the 65 war is more important as Indians did not succeed in the designs which they had woven for Pakistan. So for us 65 war was a win as we did not let our enemy get what it wanted. As a defender this is the main objective of any army to not let the aggressor enemy gain a foothold which can give it an advantage.
By the way ..I am South African of Indian origin and a muslim by religion . I still think that Pakistan will get a whacking from the IAF and India if they push Bharat around. Look at the war of 71 and Kaligri or Operation Vijay. Pakistan should stick to the LOC and stop messing around with its big brother. India accepts the independence and sovereignity of Pakistan. Pakistan should do the same. IAF and PAF should instead of brow beating each other, have joint exercises to secure a stronger regional territory
India crossed the IB on 6th Sept. 1965 in response to Pakistans Operation Grand Slam, which was initiated by Pakistan in response to Indias take over of Haji Pir, which again was in response to Pakistans Operation Gibraltar. This sequence of events is attested by Pakistani writers themselves.
This implies that within a matter of few weeks, from being the aggressor, Pakistan had become the defender. India was not only successful in defending Kashmir, but was able to take the war right to heart of Pakistan. Instead of fighting to liberate Kashmir, Pakistan was, during the end stages of the war, fighting to defend Lahore.
Only in a parallel universe would such turn of events, where an aggressor, set out to make territorial gains, eventually ending up having to fight for its territorial integrity, be termed as victory.
Pakistans flag flutters proudly over the romantic Rajput fort of Kishengrah in Rajasthan where Pakistan army was in occupation of over 1200 square miles of Indian Territory