PAF superiority over IAF in 65 war

[ironman]

Patriot, Ahmed is the first Indian who admits that we Pakitanis were in small numbers but superior in 65.

There are many..

 

[Romanch]

'Building an arsenal: the evolution of regional power force structures' by Amit Gupta perfectly summarizes the consequences of the 1965 war for the Indian Air Force -

The air force decided that instead of providing close air support to the army, it will fight a virtually independent air war... These tactics met with limited success because Pakistan based its aircraft deep inside its territory and the Indian Air Force suffered considerable and unnecessary losses trying to attack these targets.

By 1971, the air force had learned its lessons from the 1965 war... The doctrine of strategic bombing that had dominated 1965 war was viewed as carry over from World War 2 and was not considered a priority in South Asian context... An effort was made to improve communication between the services... By assigning specific corps or areas, the air force was able to get the response time down to one to one and half hours by 1971. Thus in 1971 war the air force was able to fly over 5,000 sorties in support of the army, thereby providing effective support in the ground battle in both western and eastern sectors.

The Pakistani Air Force had some success in the 1965 war not because it was better than the Indian Air Force, but because Indian generals made the wrong decisions. This is proved by the fact that the very same IAF outperformed the PAF in every aspect just six years after the 1965 war because they learned from their mistakes.

It seems that most Pakistanis are still stuck in history, or I should only that part of the history which they consider to be 'glorious'. Indians, on the other hand, have moved on and continuously learn from their mistakes and the results are there for every one to see.

 

[TexasJohn]

He was referring to the Babur Cruise Missiles, and he is right, they are made for such operations. Refer to my above post, you will get the scenario I feel. Rest all You are spot on! Thanks!

Ah, yes - but you would have to fire a barrage of them. Being subsonic they can be shot down. With the AWAC Phalcon, you will also get early warning and targetting information. The sucess rate would be low compared to the money you just spent. Now multiply that by the number of airbases, and other targets. I don't believe Pakistan has an unlimited number of Baburs. During the Gulf war, the USS Missouri alone fired 28 of them at 2 targets. And they were not the only ones launching them. The Navy launched well over 700 of them in the first few days. And that not counting the land based missile forces.

 

[Romanch]

In 71 our biggest problem or political defeat was because we were fight our own people.

How does that explain Indian victories during battle of Longewala and Basantar? And own people? What happened to your 'own people' during Operation Searchlight?

Our missile technology is way advanced/ far ahead from India in the case we go for war,

Source please?

If you were referring to the recent CAG report, it said that Indian Armed Forces has not been active enough in deploying missiles.. thats about it. Our missiles clearly have longer range and better accuracy but we need to speed up missile production rate.

And these reports is where the beauty of the Indian system lies - our own government agencies and media criticize policies so that the weakness is highlighted. If Pakistan still thinks India has not taken corrective measures after the auditors' report was released, then good luck to them!

 

[EyelessInGaza]

U surely misunderstood me ... anyway if u think u've something worth while to add to the debate...go ahead . I would like to read it.

If I misunderstood you, my bad.

As for something worth adding to the debate, what I thought was worth mentioning I already said in my previous post.

 

[EagleEyes]

'Building an arsenal: the evolution of regional power force structures' by Amit Gupta perfectly summarizes the consequences of the 1965 war for the Indian Air Force -



The Pakistani Air Force had some success in the 1965 war not because it was better than the Indian Air Force, but because Indian generals made the wrong decisions. This is proved by the fact that the very same IAF outperformed the PAF in every aspect just six years after the 1965 war because they learned from their mistakes.

It seems that most Pakistanis are still stuck in history, or I should only that part of the history which they consider to be 'glorious'. Indians, on the other hand, have moved on and continuously learn from their mistakes and the results are there for every one to see.

And who are you to say Pakistanis are stuck in history? Who are you to say on behalf of all the Indians that they have moved on and continuously learn from their mistakes?

 

[EagleEyes]

The Pakistani Air Force had some success in the 1965 war not because it was better than the Indian Air Force, but because Indian generals made the wrong decisions.

What are you talking about? What Generals? You mean Air Chiefs? You mean their incompetence doesn't represent the Air Force they work for?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

How does that explain Indian victories during battle of Longewala and Basantar?

Are you suggesting the Allies never suffered any defeats against the Germans and Japanese?

And own people? What happened to your 'own people' during Operation Searchlight?

And leave the flaming on East Pakistan alone please.

Too many new Indians on the forum think they are being 'original' wise-arses by making comments we have all heard a thousand times.

Don't troll and flame, shape up or ship out.

 

[toxic_pus]

I see them rather defending their own Airspace.

This was true even in '65 and '71.

If you look at the percentage effort spent on air defence, 55 and 57%, in '65 and '71 (the effort to protect air bases), and if we subtract bomber, transport and recce effort, then the resultant effect is that the PAF spent up to 70% of the available air effort to protect itself!

The Fighter Gap 2

In '65, PAF made 1303 sorties (out of total 2363 sorties) for air defense which took up about 55% of their air effort. If you remove the 148 sorties for photo/recon, then 58% of direct combat effort would be solely for air defense.

The Fighter Gap - 1

 

[Muradk]

Are you suggesting the Allies never suffered any defeats against the Germans and Japanese?

And leave the flaming on East Pakistan alone please.

Too many new Indians on the forum think they are being 'original' wise-arses by making comments we have all heard a thousand times.

Don't troll and flame, shape up or ship out.

Wrong decisions by generals or IAF COAS means nothing when ever we met in the skis we were superior and that fact was demonstrated in 65 and 71 , We were still out numbered in 71 in Air but our kill ratio was still high, I know that just pisses people but fact is a fact and when they don't have any thing else they come to 1 battle of Longewala, If we had a FOB near that battle 2 sabers would have been enough because all pilots except the OC were inexperienced lack of hours they had a open check they missed there targets the first time but took them out the second time no one to challenge them in Air.

 

[Khajur]

You need to make up your mind..in one post you say paf had better training then you say IAF pilots were so great that they made Gnat better then sabre and no Sabre was not better.Gnat was smaller and more agile then Sabre.The Gnat had a thrust-to-weight ratio of near one - unheard-of at that time while sabre did not have that kind of T2W ratio.

Ofcourse paf had better training under ace fighter pilots such as Chuck Yeager.

Pakistan was part of CENTCOM and US strategic bombers used to take off from pakistani air bases. India or IAF never saw that kind of military cooperation with US .

 

[Romanch]

And who are you to say Pakistanis are stuck in history? Who are you to say on behalf of all the Indians that they have moved on and continuously learn from their mistakes?

Dude.. I can't speak for all Indians. Neither can you speak for all Pakistanis. But yes, through categorical thinking we can homogenize people into various groups with shared traits.

By the tone adopted by most Pakistanis here, one can easily homogenize them as a group of people who are stuck in the past - for example, boasting about the Mughal Empire as if it belonged only to Pakistan, and boasting about the 1965 war as if they actually won the war etc.

 

[Romanch]

What are you talking about? What Generals? You mean Air Chiefs? You mean their incompetence doesn't represent the Air Force they work for?

I meant that certain wrong tactical and strategic decisions by team A against team B doesn't mean that team B enjoys absolute superiority over team A.

Why are you getting so aggressive dude? Chill!

 

[EagleEyes]

Dude.. I can't speak for all Indians. Neither can you speak for all Pakistanis. But yes, through categorical thinking we can homogenize people into various groups with shared traits.

By the tone adopted by most Pakistanis here, one can easily homogenize them as a group of people who are stuck in the past - for example, boasting about the Mughal Empire as if it belonged only to Pakistan, and boasting about the 1965 war as if they actually won the war etc.

Victories are meant to be boosted and celebrated. We dont stop India to celebrate or boost about the 1971 Liberation War of Bangladesh.

 

[Romanch]

Are you suggesting the Allies never suffered any defeats against the Germans and Japanese?

I don't understand the logic behind comparing Pakistan in 1971 to Allies during WW2.

The Allies did suffer setbacks, but they were able to overcome them. Did the Allies surrender eventually? No. Pakistan did because it was never able to recover from these setbacks.

And leave the flaming on East Pakistan alone please.

Too many new Indians on the forum think they are being 'original' wise-arses by making comments we have all heard a thousand times.

Don't troll and flame, shape up or ship out.

And calling me implicitly a "wise-arse" isn't flaming and trolling?

Even Indians have heard Pakistanis numerous times boasting about PAF aerial victories as if they actually won the 1965 war. Why don't they boast about the 'heroics' of the Pakistani Army during the Battle of Asal Uttar and Operation Gibraltar?