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PAF superiority over IAF in 65 war

sir,

None of us indians here have first hand experience of 65 or 71 war like urs ,so it wont make any sense for us to comment or contest ur version of those two wars.

Why not?

Muradk is a fine poster, and his knowledge of air warfare/ combat/ air forces overwhelming.

But to believe that only one who fought knows the most, or even has the best info, is inane. On the contrary, you could argue that participants, because they are the closest to the action, could have less knowledge and insights than others because they lack the 'big picture'.

Neither military history nor general history is written that way.

Respect where it is due; but neither oversell someone with military experience nor undersell yourselves. If we left the warfare and military development only to armed forces personnel we probably would still be making cavalry charges today.
 
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Why not?

Muradk is a fine poster, and his knowledge of air warfare/ combat/ air forces overwhelming.

But to believe that only one who fought knows the most, or even has the best info, is inane. On the contrary, you could argue that participants, because they are the closest to the action, could have less knowledge and insights than others because they lack the 'big picture'.

Neither military history nor general history is written that way.

Respect where it is due; but neither oversell someone with military experience nor undersell yourselves. If we left the warfare and military development only to armed forces personnel we probably would still be making cavalry charges today.

U surely misunderstood me ... anyway if u think u've something worth while to add to the debate...go ahead . I would like to read it.
 
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The IAF had some pitfalls in the past, and true it didnt gain Air Superiority over Pakistan and neither did the PAF subdue the IAF. If PAF had total superiority over the IAF, then you guys would still be holding onto Kashmir, and our Air Force and Army totally decimated, in such a manner that we could never have acted in 1971 to free Bangladesh. Hence the Total Superiority part has been Quashed I believe.

In the past, IAF lacked a clear doctrine/strategy in the air. We kind of followed the rigid Soviet plan, but still we didnt do as bad as the arabs did. The PAF had superior training and indoctrination from USAF, and it helped a lot.

Coming to the present, PAF doesnt hold such an edge anylonger. But it did in the past, and that was why PAF was never annihilated and went onto fly another day!
 
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Very stupid post ahmed..I'll reply later in detail.
You did see who thanked me right? I hope you didnt see it!

I was not trying to be stupid ;), I was trying to be Sane. I was not trying to be conciliatory, I was trying to put up the facts, which I feel are correct. I hope you will look around before you post now on.

I stand by what I wrote in my post, I stand by the fact that PAF had better training, I stand by the Fact that Indians were better than Arabs of that time/era. I stand by the fact that PAF didnt Have total Superiority over the Skies or Subdue IAF. I stand by these facts.
 
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The IAF had some pitfalls in the past, and true it didnt gain Air Superiority over Pakistan and neither did the PAF subdue the IAF. If PAF had total superiority over the IAF, then you guys would still be holding onto Kashmir, and our Air Force and Army totally decimated, in such a manner that we could never have acted in 1971 to free Bangladesh. Hence the Total Superiority part has been Quashed I believe.
Of course.It is stupid to assume PAF could gain air superiority over whole India with limited assets it had.We had limited ammo, limited air crafts that too with sanctions so spares were running out fast and limited fuel reserve so to say that Hell in those days, we had areas within Westers borders where PAF could not reach due to lack of air bases and logistics...PAF should have established air sup over East Pakistan and Kashmir is quite frankly stupid.We only had 1 sqd in East Pakistan anyway.Air Power alone does not win you war.Us had Complete Air Superiority over Vietnam..but lost 50,000+ soldiers.

In the past, IAF lacked a clear doctrine/strategy in the air. We kind of followed the rigid Soviet plan, but still we didnt do as bad as the arabs did.
Actually, IAF too sent it's pilots to USA for training..In fact, there was this pilot can't remember his name who was shot down over Lahore by some PAF Pilot and on the ground was joined by another PAF Pilot who was his course mate in USA.

The PAF had superior training and indoctrination from USAF, and it helped a lot..Coming to the present, PAF doesnt hold such an edge anylonger. But it did in the past, and that was why PAF was never annihilated and went onto fly another day!
Well, the IAF was massive even in 65 and 71 but it helped us it brought the best out of our Pilots..they went to the extreme limits of jets.If we had air force the size of IAF i can assure you IAF would have been annihilated in very first few days..Unfortunately IAf could not do it with PAF.With the current state of PAF , yes you're correct however in 5 years situation will change.. Induction of BVR, Datalinks, AWACS, Refuelers etc will change situation.Of course we never had and never will match Indians in quantity.
 
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Of course.It is stupid to assume PAF could gain air superiority over whole India with limited assets it had.We had limited ammo, limited air crafts that too with sanctions so spares were running out fast and limited fuel reserve so to say that Hell in those days, we had areas within Westers borders where PAF could not reach due to lack of air bases and logistics...PAF should have established air sup over East Pakistan and Kashmir is quite frankly stupid.We only had 1 sqd in East Pakistan anyway.Air Power alone does not win you war.Us had Complete Air Superiority over Vietnam..but lost 50,000+ soldiers.


Actually, IAF too sent it's pilots to USA for training..In fact, there was this pilot can't remember his name who was shot down over Lahore by some PAF Pilot and on the ground was joined by another PAF Pilot who was his course mate in USA.


Well, the IAF was massive even in 65 and 71 but it helped us it brought the best out of our Pilots..they went to the extreme limits of jets.If we had air force the size of IAF i can assure you IAF would have been annihilated in very first few days..Unfortunately IAf could not do it with PAF.With the current state of PAF , yes you're correct however in 5 years situation will change.. Induction of BVR, Datalinks, AWACS, Refuelers etc will change situation.Of course we never had and never will match Indians in quantity.
I never mentioned gaining total air control over whole of India! I meant the Battlespace, that is Kashmir etc.

Air Power alone can crush an Army, in Vietnam it was guerrilla warfare mate, you are comparing apples and oranges! If PAF had total superiority, it would have decimated the Indian War Machine, and the Indian Army would never have risen again to free Bangladesh in 71.

You see, USAF destroyed Saddams army single handedly I would say, because when it came on Ground, all of them ran away. But the USAF cant win the current Insurgency in Iraq, because it Guerrilla Warfare! The Vietnamese had Ace pilots and would give the USAF a run when it could too! Its offtopic, But I brought it in to show you the Futility of your Apple/Orange agenda!!!

So you mean to say, India and USA were chums? Come on, sending some pilots for Training wont change the fact that the Soviets were supplying us, and Training us to Fly their machines! The Russians and US built their planes for different purposes, you cant Use Russian planes the way you use the US ones, atleast way back then. They neede change in tacts, and the Top Brass of IAF followed the Russian Model. The US till recently, thought IAF is still under the Russian doctrine, but after the various Excercises, they have said that IAF has changed their training pattern and brought in the best of east/west and change of tactics mid air etc. Dig out the sources if you want, I am not bothering!

You are right with your last part, the huge Size of IAF brought out the Best in your Pilots and made them excel and fight against Odds. I am sure, it might be the case now also.

So you agree IAF was not annihilated in the 65 war, and you guys didnt have complete Superiority! You didnt have to say this much to finally come down and agree with me! God Speed.
 
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Nobody is denying that PAF did not have complete air superiority..that would be impossible unless PAF gets numerical gap fixed.It would be illogical to compare PAF 65 Operations with Operation Desert Storm..1,820 Fighter aircraft were deployed during Operation Desert Storm now are you saying PAF could do the same task with lone 120 sabres and 1 sqd of Starfighters with sanctions, limited ammo and reserves (I might be abit off on numbers)..Besides, PAf was figthing much more serious Af then Iraqi AF.
 
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Again I hope you didnt tag him along with the Stupid remark!!!!! If you did, then I can see where you are coming from.
Don't assume things on your own :frown:.I assume you are talking about Muradk well you only have to check my previous posts.He is my favorite poster here and i am huge fan of Sir Muradk.He is my role model (I too wanted to defend Pakistan but cannot enter Air Force and Army due to medical issues..).May god give Pakistan more patriots like Sir Muradk.He is one of the most patriotic Pakistani..its due to people like him Indian Army could not lunch at Lahore GymKhanna.
 
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Nobody is denying that PAF did not have complete air superiority..that would be impossible unless PAF gets numerical gap fixed.It would be illogical to compare PAF 65 Operations with Operation Desert Storm..1,820 Fighter aircraft were deployed during Operation Desert Storm now are you saying PAF could do the same task with lone 120 sabres and 1 sqd of Starfighters with sanctions, limited ammo and reserves (I might be abit off on numbers)..Besides, PAf was figthing much more serious Af then Iraqi AF.
I was refuting your fact that an airforce cant decimate an enemy. It very well can, when fighting a conventional enemy. Only when it goes into insurgency does it falter.

Hence, prove, PAF didnt annihilate the IAF, though it did give the IAF a bloody nose, a lesson it has learnt well.

The title of the Thread itself is misleading, What kind of Superiority are we talking of????
 
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Again I hope you didnt tag him along with the Stupid remark!!!!! If you did, then I can see where you are coming from.

Patriot, Ahmed is the first Indian who admits that we Pakitanis were in small numbers but superior in 65. In 71 our biggest problem or political defeat was because we were fight our own people.
Now the situation is totally different the figures are still the same but we can't say who will win. Haan our missile technology is way ahead of them and Ahmed will agree to it no doubt.

Before my retirement I held a post in which I presented a presentation to all the Chief including Joint Chief.
just to sum up
Our missile technology is way advanced/ far ahead from India in the case we go for war, We only have to take care of the planes in the air because by the time they go back there will be no IAF bases left . If we didn't have this missile tech and the nukes, India would have attacked us a long time ago. Zia was smart he never told anyone whats in the bag, David Frost asked him whats in the bag he replied their is a cat in the bag. DF said how big is the cat he said I don't know but I can say this there are a lot of them referring to our nukes.

I recently saw that Indian news the 7 steps to get Pakistan, Let me tell you by the first step yes they will take us by surprise but there will no 2nd step we would have taken care of them in 20 min and this figure is not a factious one. They have already seen our readiness few months back again yes we might be fighting in Air to a superior weapon I mean SU-30 but that would give us enough time to take action against them. For the last 20 years there are people on both side who say lets do it and see who's the best. Which is insane if we fight both Pakistan and India will go back to 1947 and no one wants that. That is why americans can up with a fancy name The doctrine of Mutual Nuclear Deterrence
 
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Luckily Pakistan has motor way as back up for returning pilots for step one and two, All bases will be taken out on both sides by then. :coffee:
 
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Here is my take on it. In 65 ( 44 years ago), PAF had better hardware and training than the IAF. The IAF did the best they could. You guys are right - no one gained air superiority, I don't think. I don't know of a square foot of ground you can hold via Air Force. It still goes to "boots on the ground". That's why India ended up holding more turf at the day's end.

The tiny Gnat did do better than expected. I believe Muradk can himself testify to that!

The Generals on both sides managed to seize a stalemate from the jaws of Victory!!

1965 was PAF's moment of glory. In my opinion, from there on it has been steadily loosing it's edge to where (today) it has none.
 
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