PAF Should Stop Purchase of Any New F 16's

[niaz]

Popularity of the stealth technology is because it minimizes radar signature of the object. Smaller the radar signature, more difficult is to see and hence more difficult to fight; for the simple reason that if you can’t see an arrow or the missile coming at you, you can’t dodge it or shoot it down.

No doubt there is nothing totally invisible to radar. Natural rule dictates that as soon as one develops a new weapon, pressure is on to develop its antidote. Understand new Passive radars can detect distortion in the signals in the radio broadcast waves caused by the passage of the aircraft. Question however remains as to how accurately it can be done? Is passive radar as effective as normal radar and can passive radar be jammed? One would only know for sure if two nations possessing stealth technology as well as passive radar engage in war.

In my view, stealth technology is a ‘Plus’ such as thrust vectoring or BVR technology, enabling you to shoot at your enemy before he has a chance to defend or shoot back. If your enemy possess stealth aircraft, you should acquire as well to even the odds and even if your enemy does not have, you should acquire the same nonetheless to be able to defeat the enemy. Either way, one cannot get away from it.

I would therefore conclude that obsolete or not; expensive or not; it would be a must for the PAF to acquire stealth aircraft soon; say within 5 years else country’s air defence would be seriously compromised.

 

[MastanKhan]

Any experienced engineer would know benefits of standardization. Less the varieties of the machines, easier it is to maintain and train people to operate the same. Aircraft is no different. No doubt due diligence is needed before a choice is made which best suits our defence need given the financial & political constraints. But after the decision has been made, it is far easier to gain proficiency with fewer kinds of fighters. In my view, one of the reasons of PAF success in 1965 war was that we only had F-86’s, B-57’s and a few F-104’s. Our pilots knew their machines inside out and maintenance crews were equally proficient. PAF therefore flew those birds to the maximum potential.

I see posts recommending F-18’s and even F-15’s without the consideration of how onerous it is to introduce entirely different fighter into the fleet. Life cycle cost of a second hand aircraft over (say) 10 year period may exceed that of a new machine. PAF planners appear to have decided on the F-16 & JF-17 as mainstay of the fleet. For better or for worse let’s stick with it and aim to fly and maintain these fighters to the highest standard instead of adding new varieties just because the same are available second hand presumably on the cheap.

Undoubted PAF also needs some 4.5/5th generation fighters in the fleet; for this Chinese J-31 is probably the most accessible & affordable. IMHO 6 squadrons of F-16’s, 10 to 12 squadrons of Jf-17’s and may be 2 to 3 squadrons of J-31 should suffice for the PAF needs of the foreseeable future.

Sir,

Thank you for your post-----battles are fought with what you have NOW---not on what you will get in the future. Militaries plan and maintain parity to what the opponent has.

The success in the 65 war was not due to one platform the Sabre F86---but for the fact that it was a superior aircraft in the arena----.

One on one---this aircraft could take anything in the opponents arsenal and come out ahead----THAT WAS THE ONLY REASON FOR ITS SUCCESS----off course there is the pilot factor as well---but until and unless you don't have a machine to propel the pilot ahead---he is a sitting duck----.

I mean to say---the enemy is not made up of dummies or idiots---they have very capable aircraft as well---much superior----they come to fight as well----.

It is preposterous for someone to believe that an inferior machine---with lesser numbers will over come superior machines with larger numbers----.

Paf does not show that superiority of that one aircraft anymore----.

 

[niaz]

Sir,

Thank you for your post-----battles are fought with what you have NOW---not on what you will get in the future. Militaries plan and maintain parity to what the opponent has.

The success in the 65 war was not due to one platform the Sabre F86---but for the fact that it was a superior aircraft in the arena----.

One on one---this aircraft could take anything in the opponents arsenal and come out ahead----THAT WAS THE ONLY REASON FOR ITS SUCCESS----off course there is the pilot factor as well---but until and unless you don't have a machine to propel the pilot ahead---he is a sitting duck----.

I mean to say---the enemy is not made up of dummies or idiots---they have very capable aircraft as well---much superior----they come to fight as well----.

It is preposterous for someone to believe that an inferior machine---with lesser numbers will over come superior machines with larger numbers----.

Paf does not show that superiority of that one aircraft anymore----.

I completely agree that a good pilot needs a good fighter to be effective; even the best jockey won’t win the Derby unless he is riding a good horse. My point here is that PAF planners have appeared to have decided in favour of F-16 & JF-17. Instead of adding new varieties such as second hand F-18 and /or F-15 because these are affordable, we should concentrate on what we have as it would be too cumbersome and onerous to induct new fighters albeit slightly superior on paper

P.S.

UK had nearly 10 Squadrons of Sabres in Germany. However the same were retired in 1956 after 2 years. Hawker Hunter on the other hand entered service with RAF at nearly the same time but soldiered on for decades.

I was a student In London in 1965 and remember military analysts declaring that Hawker Hunter was superior to the North American F-86 in overall performance.

Facts speak for themselves as PAF with F-86’s caused havoc among the Hunters of the IAF. This must be due to the training & proficiency which enabled PAF pilots to take the maximum out of F-86.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

On the other hand good, innovative, practical and cost effective use of stealth is now seen on likes of Advanced Super Hornet, Silent Eagle and Grippen NG. All of them, mature and war proven birds. Grippen, may be not so much but, I put it in the list based on it's advancement along the lines of F-15 and F-18. Yes, they're not up there with the likes of Raptor but, if Boeing is to be believed then they can sure give JSF a run for it's money. And if it's true, then, what that means for us, PAF, future acquisition, JF-17, the technology and so on and so forth? It's a world of possibilities out there!

The reason for them to have some sort of stealth features is that they were used as test beds for F-22 and F-35. If you go trough the development of F-22, F-35 and the Boeing fifth gen fighter get they have all developed by one of the existing platforms available. F-16 VISTA, F-16XL and the DSI for F-35 was tested on F-16.

F-15 could be part of PAF because they do have the same engine and can complement the F-16's. Many other Air Forces use this combination.

F-18's if considered will go to the Pakistan Navy (Marines) which is a separate from Pakistan Air Force. Pakistan Navy has been operating aircraft for a very long time and recently thy did show interest in F-18's and J-16 but the PM wanted them to purchase JF-17. What is the current situation is still unknown.

FAST HISTORY: LOCKHEED’S DIVERTERLESS SUPERSONIC INLET TESTBED F-16 | AviationIntel.com

But, what I'm saying is that we should recognize realities and plan and act accordingly. And, this brings me to the point which pertains to @MastanKhan's original post of needing a potent 4.5++ Gen: platform. And in my humble opinion, it can be none better then EFT. Why Typhoon, if I'm asked I'll elaborate my POV in an other post.

No one disputes that the EFT is one of the most potent 4.5++ Gen platform but is it viable for PAF to have them when they can get some thing which is slightly lower for half the price (Saving on Training). F-16 Blk 50-52's with AESA can be ordered or some F-16 Blk 60's can be bought from UAE.

 

[CHI RULES]

I wonder why PAF not going for AESA upgade for F16s if possible they should take urgent steps in in this regard.

 

[araz]

Hi,
You are getting it wrong. I like every other pakistani would lay my life when ever there will be a call of duty, InshAllah.

and as much as we love and support our armed forces, we have every right to praise as well as criticize it wherever it is due. lets not get this discussion into emotional part.

when it comes to maintaining upper hand, you always go for superior and hi tech equipments, MashAllah unlike Arab countries who have hi tech goodies yet they lack manpower, we OTOH have a pool of brave warriors and which is the reason why i would criticize PAF for

As i recall it was during those sanction years when PAF was offered Mirages, but a very lakeer fakeer procurement officer of PAF I believe cancelled the deal altogether as he came to know about kickbacks that were being offered. perhaps @MastanKhan Shab can shed some light on it. I mean look at the short sightedness of the officer. Kaha ki soch kaha apply ki.

When he could have easily later on, after the procurement prosecuted the officer involved in corruption, but instead he choose to cancel the deal altogether.

Since you have chosen to shoot your mouth and malign a personal friend and a man whom I have come to respect a lot, let me say that in your assumptions you cant be further than the truth.
Let me reiterate:
1. The man did not cancel the deal merely present the file to the corrupt benazir without the necessary changes commanded by a non state looter.
2. It was Benazir who threw the file out on the road and told him not to return till he had made the changes as commanded by AZ.
3. He was relieved of his post the same day before he got back to the office and told to report back to the air head office. So even if he wanted to do something he was not given a chance. NOT THAT HE WOULD HAVE ACCEPTED TO MAKE THE CHANGES.
4. Request was represented to the French 90 days later once Benazir was thrown out of office but the french did not accept the deal at that juncture which mày point to a similar situation to the Augusta sub deal.
5.It was Benazir who did not accept/sign the file for 3 months even prior to this event so if you want to assign blame then assign it on that person as well.
6. Please refrain from assigning blame without knowing facts in full. It is very unfair.
The reason I have always respected Mastan Khans arguments is that he has argued against the decision without assigning personal blame.
Araz

 

[salarsikander]

Since you have chosen to shoot your mouth and malign a personal friend and a man whom I have come to respect a lot, let me say that in your assumptions you cant be further than the truth.
Let me reiterate:
1. The man did not cancel the deal merely present the file to the corrupt benazir without the necessary changes commanded by a non state looter.
2. It was Benazir who threw the file out on the road and told him not to return till he had made the changes as commanded by AZ.
3. He was relieved of his post the same day before he got back to the office and told to report back to the air head office. So even if he wanted to do something he was not given a chance. NOT THAT HE WOULD HAVE ACCEPTED TO MAKE THE CHANGES.
4. Request was represented to the French 90 days later once Benazir was thrown out of office but the french did not accept the deal at that juncture which mày point to a similar situation to the Augusta sub deal.
5.It was Benazir who did not accept/sign the file for 3 months even prior to this event so if you want to assign blame then assign it on that person as well.
6. Please refrain from assigning blame without knowing facts in full. It is very unfair.
The reason I have always respected Mastan Khans arguments is that he has argued against the decision without assigning personal blame.
Araz

Hi,
Thanks for including such crucial information in my knowledge

 

[salarsikander]

Since you have chosen to shoot your mouth and malign a personal friend and a man whom I have come to respect a lot, let me say that in your assumptions you cant be further than the truth.
Let me reiterate:
1. The man did not cancel the deal merely present the file to the corrupt benazir without the necessary changes commanded by a non state looter.
2. It was Benazir who threw the file out on the road and told him not to return till he had made the changes as commanded by AZ.
3. He was relieved of his post the same day before he got back to the office and told to report back to the air head office. So even if he wanted to do something he was not given a chance. NOT THAT HE WOULD HAVE ACCEPTED TO MAKE THE CHANGES.
4. Request was represented to the French 90 days later once Benazir was thrown out of office but the french did not accept the deal at that juncture which mày point to a similar situation to the Augusta sub deal.
5.It was Benazir who did not accept/sign the file for 3 months even prior to this event so if you want to assign blame then assign it on that person as well.
6. Please refrain from assigning blame without knowing facts in full. It is very unfair.
The reason I have always respected Mastan Khans arguments is that he has argued against the decision without assigning personal blame.
Araz

@IBRIS Thought you should know about this too

 

[Eagle Claw]

Even USA offered the A-10's in 2006.
F-18's and A-10's were offered for PAA so that they are able to do the CAS role them selves. Where as the F-15's were offered to PAF so that the need for Air Superiority can be addressed.

PAF refused the F-15's due to the high operational cost.

F-18's are possibility because they have a much more economical engine and the same can also be used in JF-17 if permitted. More over PN is also interested in F-18's or J-16's.

At the end PAF would always go for F-16's as this is the Only Aircraft that has Destroyed a Nuclear Reactor.

Well Every Modern Air Superiority Aircraft is generally not economical in operational cost !
Keeping PAF's current Shape in view !
PAF definitely needs atleast 1 Air Superiority Fighter !
According to me !
Rejecting F-15s was nothing more than a blunder [[Never forget Brand New F-15s Versions were offered back in 2006 ]] !
But at present they should place a demand of F-15s or F-18 Hornets in front of Uncle Sam !
If Uncle Sam gives green signal to the deal then this is the best option even now !
If Uncle Sam shows a Red Signal !
PAF should go for J-11D with Russian Engines for Air Superiority !
But thats for sure !
If not today then in near tomorrow PAF will badly need an Air Superiority Fighter Jet !
Here J-10B should be completely Ruled out, because alot feasible and economical options are still out there which offers even more capability !

 

[MastanKhan]

I completely agree that a good pilot needs a good fighter to be effective; even the best jockey won’t win the Derby unless he is riding a good horse. My point here is that PAF planners have appeared to have decided in favour of F-16 & JF-17. Instead of adding new varieties such as second hand F-18 and /or F-15 because these are affordable, we should concentrate on what we have as it would be too cumbersome and onerous to induct new fighters albeit slightly superior on paper

P.S.

UK had nearly 10 Squadrons of Sabres in Germany. However the same were retired in 1956 after 2 years. Hawker Hunter on the other hand entered service with RAF at nearly the same but soldiered on for decades.

I was a student In London in 1965 and remember military analysts declaring that Hawker was Hunter was superior to the North American F-86 in overall performance.

Facts speak for themselves as PAF with F-86’s caused havoc among the Hunters of the IAF. This must be due to the training & proficiency which enabled PAF pilots to take the maximum out of F-86.

Hi,

Thank you for your response----. It was in a similar manner that the F 16 was considered to be superior to the Mirage 2K.

Now as long as you stay within the 85% to 90 range of the opponents capabilities---you are fine---.

But when the gap grows wider to like 60 and 70 % and one can only brag of man behind the machine like the mantra of paf and fanboys----that is recipe for distaster written all over it.

 

[boke]

作为一个中国人，我对本国的三代主力战机J-10有足够的信心，当然，因为并非飞行员，不能通过一堆数据就来评论哪个好哪个坏，只能说巴基斯坦选用哪种装备根据自身国情和国防需要、国防安全的实际情况综合考虑，这样得出的结果才是最优的。当前，巴基斯坦的不安全因素主要来自三个方面：印度、阿富汗、伊朗，那么这些国家仅就空军势力而言，巴基斯坦最需要考虑的是引进在性能上能压制至少也是要与印度先进战机相当的装备才是明智选择。现在巴基斯坦和印度的空军中都有不少美制装备，坦白说，我认为这样的话能不能发生冲突，发生冲突胜利的天平会偏向哪方，到时候就不是由巴基斯坦或者印度决定，而是由美国决定，谁也不会比美国了解自己国家生产的装备性能如何、弱点在哪里，更没有哪个知道这些装备中留有什么“后门”，想想英国和阿根廷之间的马岛海战，法国是怎样把飞鱼导弹的合同撕毁并且把飞鱼的数据和弱点泄露给英国的就可以想象了！

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

作为一个中国人，我对本国的三代主力战机J-10有足够的信心，当然，因为并非飞行员，不能通过一堆数据就来评论哪个好哪个坏，只能说巴基斯坦选用哪种装备根据自身国情和国防需要、国防安全的实际情况综合考虑，这样得出的结果才是最优的。当前，巴基斯坦的不安全因素主要来自三个方面：印度、阿富汗、伊朗，那么这些国家仅就空军势力而言，巴基斯坦最需要考虑的是引进在性能上能压制至少也是要与印度先进战机相当的装备才是明智选择。现在巴基斯坦和印度的空军中都有不少美制装备，坦白说，我认为这样的话能不能发生冲突，发生冲突胜利的天平会偏向哪方，到时候就不是由巴基斯坦或者印度决定，而是由美国决定，谁也不会比美国了解自己国家生产的装备性能如何、弱点在哪里，更没有哪个知道这些装备中留有什么“后门”，想想英国和阿根廷之间的马岛海战，法国是怎样把飞鱼导弹的合同撕毁并且把飞鱼的数据和弱点泄露给英国的就可以想象了！

Translation:
As a Chinese person, I own three generations of the main fighter J-10 has enough confidence, of course, because not a pilot, not by a bunch of data on which to comment on what is good or bad, can only say that the choice of what kind of equipment to Pakistan in accordance with their national conditions and national defense, national security situation into account, the results so obtained is optimal. Currently, Pakistan's insecurity mainly from three aspects: India, Afghanistan, Iran, these countries only for air forces, the Pakistan most important consideration is the introduction of the performance can be suppressed or at least comparable with India advanced fighter Equipment wise choice. Now the Air Force in Pakistan and India have a lot of American equipment, and frankly, I think this is the case can not be a conflict, a conflict which will favor the balance of victory party, that time is not determined by Pakistan or India, but by the United States decided that no one would own country than the United States on how to understand the performance of production equipment, weaknesses are, but no know what equipment is left in these "back door" between Britain and Argentina think the Falklands Battle of France is how The Exocet missile tore up the contract and the flying fish and weaknesses of data leaked to the British can imagine it!

 

[Storm Force]

Pakistanis live in a world of fantasy.

Maintenance and cost versis their gdp and totally disreguarded.

People talk about five hndred bvr fighters.

It's unreal.

An f22,raptor to fly costs ten times the cost of a thunder per hour

 

[raazh]

IMHO, There is one aspect of the J10A/B fighter that most ppl over look. It is the fact that Chinese Forces have optimized J10 for only one role i.e. Air to Air. I have never seen J10 with other ground or Naval attack loads. Because China uses the Su/J11-15 series in that role. It does not mean that J10 cannot do any other role; it just means that the Chinese, at the moment, have no need for J10 in those roles. So any buyer willing to buy J10 will probably going to evaluate the same thing .. just like the Argentinians find JF17 more suitable and multi dimensional than a J10.

Same is the case with PAF. If and when we need to induct a new plane, I am sure the decision makers are going to check for a multirole platform which can bring a multi dimensional boost in our capabilities. If J10 is our only option than PAF is definitely going to request an evolved J10 version with ground and naval attack capabilities which will require separate resources and time. Will PAF fund that improvement ?? That is the real question.

 

[ziaulislam]

question remains whether to go for J-10 or J-31 & the availability of j-31?

typhoon is out of the question because of the prevailing economical situation. its not that we can cough out 5 billion dollars(we did in 90s!), but in 21th century we will not do so.

Chinese option is viable due to long term financing.

 

[Zhukov]

I am sorry but PAF guys are smart. All these fancy 4th gen fighters are to become obsolete in coming decade.
Now procuring J10 is stupidity.
F16s are stop gaps untill J31s will arive.
Pakistan is already moving away from US aircrafts.
Do you see any F35 coming in any future?
Jf17 will be workhorse inducted in numbers for ground attack and interception. While J31 will be the next big thinh for PAF. Infact J31 and JF17 will share same engine for easier maintenance. F16s can still defend our skies againat anything India can throw at Pakistan for atleast a decade.
Chill