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PAF Should Stop Purchase of Any New F 16's

F-16.BL.52+ Seems to be better than Gripen NG & 39C

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- 2 ) We cant get Boeing F-18 Uncle sam wont sell it + it's expensive...

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3) Same is the case with Typhoon

typhoon-vs-rafale.jpg



- For now it seems that our policy makers are not interested in other platforms except J-31 !!
- If Our budget allows to go for it ,still i think we should save this money for J-31 and also keep upgrading our JF-17s..
- we should wait further more as we know chinese are upgrading J-10s...
- we should not acquire more F-16s,now we should look toward other platforms of chinese origin..

Well I disagree that we can't get F-18s.
Year or two back !
PAF was inspecting and evaluating Ex-Australian F-18 Hornets which were on sale and had decent condition.
Similarly back in 2006, Uncle Sam offered Pakistan F-15s but for some reason PAF didn't went for either option !
Ball is in PAF's Court, where ever they wana pot it !
Over the years it has been extremely hard for them to take a decision due to some mysterious reason !
I think we have made this perception by ourselves that Uncle Sam would cause any problem !
Well You can't get a thing without demanding it or expressing your urge or interest for it !
We first have to place demand in front of uncle Sam !
Then we can say something about whether uncle Sam will give it or not !
According to me, nothing can cause you problem unless you are paying for it and warming sellers pocket !
At last yeahh J-31 is the best option but a long term option !
Currently if we can even Manage Ex F-18s or ExF-15s and their decent Upgrade Packages along with them !
I think that will be a win win situation for PAF !
 
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Hi,
You are getting it wrong. I like every other pakistani would lay my life when ever there will be a call of duty, InshAllah.

and as much as we love and support our armed forces, we have every right to praise as well as criticize it wherever it is due. lets not get this discussion into emotional part.

when it comes to maintaining upper hand, you always go for superior and hi tech equipments, MashAllah unlike Arab countries who have hi tech goodies yet they lack manpower, we OTOH have a pool of brave warriors and which is the reason why i would criticize PAF for their inability to provide these boys with much deserved weapons.

I m sure you must have heard of M.M Alam. that is the result of skill plus hi tech equipment.

As i recall it was during those sanction years when PAF was offered Mirages, but a very lakeer fakeer procurement officer of PAF I believe cancelled the deal altogether as he came to know about kickbacks that were being offered. perhaps @MastanKhan Shab can shed some light on it. I mean look at the short sightedness of the officer. Kaha ki soch kaha apply ki.

When he could have easily later on, after the procurement prosecuted the officer involved in corruption, but instead he choose to cancel the deal altogether.
If we had those jets we would be in very much different position from what we at now.

This is my objection the very culture and lack of professionalism in PAF. not anything to do with our brave pilots


Because there's no check and balance
 
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Well I disagree that we can't get F-18s.
Year or two back !
PAF was inspecting and evaluating Ex-Australian F-18 Hornets which were on sale and had decent condition.
Similarly back in 2006, Uncle Sam offered Pakistan F-15s but for some reason PAF didn't went for either option !
Ball is in PAF's Court, where ever they wana pot it !
Over the years it has been extremely hard for them to take a decision due to some mysterious reason !
I think we have made this perception by ourselves that Uncle Sam would cause any problem !
Well You can't get a thing without demanding it or expressing your urge or interest for it !
We first have to place demand in front of uncle Sam !
Then we can say something about whether uncle Sam will give it or not !
According to me, nothing can cause you problem unless you are paying for it and warming sellers pocket !
At last yeahh J-31 is the best option but a long term option !
Currently if we can even Manage Ex F-18s or ExF-15s and their decent Upgrade Packages along with them !
I think that will be a win win situation for PAF !
Hi,
F-18 and f-15 now this is news to me, is it possible to share some link or anything where i cant read more about it

Because there's no check and balance
Hi,
because of lack of professionalism and long-term planning
 
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Hi,
F-18 and f-15 now this is news to me, is it possible to share some link or anything where i cant read more about it


Hi,
because of lack of professionalism and long-term planning

F-18 part is true @MastanKhan knows and I hope our flying boys don't run out of professionalism
 
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Priority should be to get more MLUd F-16s to reach its numbers to 150 and convert all of them to Block-60 standard with installation of AESA and integration of AIM-9x.

You can't upgrade any previous versions of -16's below block 52 to block 60. The structure doesn't allow for it. The AESA upgrade however, will be do-able in the next few years. Block 60 is essentially a new and all together a different plane structurally, and in every other way.

You should just buy more block 52's if you want to get to block 60 level or buy J-10's.
 
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@MastanKhan look at level of there approach on one hand they claim J-10 is not tested platform while F-16 is we can't jump for it but truth is at J-10 has been flying for 18 years with introduction from 2002 at least 9 variants out but still it is not proven for them, but then they Jump for J-31 is it proven or mature by above PAF definition if it's so then it will not be inducted unless it takes Part in conflict i think either we have no funds or we lack decision making capability.
 
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@MastanKhan look at level of there approach on one hand they claim J-10 is not tested platform while F-16 is we can't jump for it but truth is at J-10 has been flying for 18 years with introduction from 2002 at least 9 variants out but still it is not proven for them, but then they Jump for J-31 is it proven or mature by above PAF definition if it's so then it will not be inducted unless it takes Part in conflict i think either we have no funds or we lack decision making capability.


Hi,

Yeah---it seems like they want to marinate the steak for a few years more.

Can some one ask the when and where the JF 17 was tested! Some aircraft may never be tested and may be tested at almost the end of their career---like the rafale----.

You can just simply put them against the tested platforms and see how they perform---check out the maintenance history and cost effectiveness---weapons and electronics package and availability----there is no other magic bullet---.
 
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Hi,

Yeah---it seems like they want to marinate the steak for a few years more.

Can some one ask the when and where the JF 17 was tested! Some aircraft may never be tested and may be tested at almost the end of their career---like the rafale----.

You can just simply put them against the tested platforms and see how they perform---check out the maintenance history and cost effectiveness---weapons and electronics package and availability----there is no other magic bullet---.
By Logic we are selecting fighter is vedic logic which only they can understand no other human on planet can.
 
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For categories as low, medium and high tech aircrafts, 200 jf17 fits in low, around 100 f16 in medium and 100 j31 in high tech categories. 400 is the maximum limit which PAF should have & of course with strong upgrades. Make it a 10 year PAF plan
 
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Don't think that PAF is gonna decide to induct another type without waiting for India to make a move
The thing is IAF has ordered only 36 Rafales as a stop gap. Though the requirement is much higher. They are upgrading the existing aircraft but still the replacement of Mig 21's and Mig 29's are required.

For now Pakistan can increase the numbers of F-16's then it would be almost at break-even.

If India increases the order of Rafales or goes after some other platform then PAF would have to get some new stuff. This would allow F-31 / KFX / TFX to be in production and almost nearing maturity.

The only reason one can assume IAF did not continue with the MMRCA is they are thinking USA would offer them the F-35's.

Hi,
F-18 and f-15 now this is news to me, is it possible to share some link or anything where i cant read more about it
Even USA offered the A-10's in 2006.
F-18's and A-10's were offered for PAA so that they are able to do the CAS role them selves. Where as the F-15's were offered to PAF so that the need for Air Superiority can be addressed.

PAF refused the F-15's due to the high operational cost.

F-18's are possibility because they have a much more economical engine and the same can also be used in JF-17 if permitted. More over PN is also interested in F-18's or J-16's.

At the end PAF would always go for F-16's as this is the Only Aircraft that has Destroyed a Nuclear Reactor.
 
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There is still a reason F-16 is still loved by many AF around the world. Man its a great bird and its proven, while J10 isnt.
 
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PAF should place order for another 32 f16s. Also buy some more used f16s from US and other countries.

PAF should place order for another 32 f16s. Also buy some more used f16s from US and other countries.
 
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Any experienced engineer would know benefits of standardization. Less the varieties of the machines, easier it is to maintain and train people to operate the same. Aircraft is no different. No doubt due diligence is needed before a choice is made which best suits our defence need given the financial & political constraints. But after the decision has been made, it is far easier to gain proficiency with fewer kinds of fighters. In my view, one of the reasons of PAF success in 1965 war was that we only had F-86’s, B-57’s and a few F-104’s. Our pilots knew their machines inside out and maintenance crews were equally proficient. PAF therefore flew those birds to the maximum potential.

I see posts recommending F-18’s and even F-15’s without the consideration of how onerous it is to introduce entirely different fighter into the fleet. Life cycle cost of a second hand aircraft over (say) 10 year period may exceed that of a new machine. PAF planners appear to have decided on the F-16 & JF-17 as mainstay of the fleet. For better or for worse let’s stick with it and aim to fly and maintain these fighters to the highest standard instead of adding new varieties just because the same are available second hand presumably on the cheap.

Undoubted PAF also needs some 4.5/5th generation fighters in the fleet; for this Chinese J-31 is probably the most accessible & affordable. IMHO 6 squadrons of F-16’s, 10 to 12 squadrons of Jf-17’s and may be 2 to 3 squadrons of J-31 should suffice for the PAF needs of the foreseeable future.
 
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Any experienced engineer would know benefits of standardization. Less the varieties of the machines, easier it is to maintain and train people to operate the same. Aircraft is no different. No doubt due diligence is needed before a choice is made which best suits our defence need given the financial & political constraints. But after the decision has been made, it is far easier to gain proficiency with fewer kinds of fighters. In my view, one of the reasons of PAF success in 1965 war was that we only had F-86’s, B-57’s and a few F-104’s. Our pilots knew their machines inside out and maintenance crews were equally proficient. PAF therefore flew those birds to the maximum potential.

I see posts recommending F-18’s and even F-15’s without the consideration of how onerous it is to introduce entirely different fighter into the fleet. Life cycle cost of a second hand aircraft over (say) 10 year period may exceed that of a new machine. PAF planners appear to have decided on the F-16 & JF-17 as mainstay of the fleet. For better or for worse let’s stick with it and aim to fly and maintain these fighters to the highest standard instead of adding new varieties just because the same are available second hand presumably on the cheap.

Undoubted PAF also needs some 4.5/5th generation fighters in the fleet; for this Chinese J-31 is probably the most accessible & affordable. IMHO 6 squadrons of F-16’s, 10 to 12 squadrons of Jf-17’s and may be 2 to 3 squadrons of J-31 should suffice for the PAF needs of the foreseeable future.

Quite Sane thought`s ,Many don't know what it takes to aborb tech .Totally second your point.
 
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I've questions regarding PAF's plan to go for 5th Gen: platform while skipping advanced/semi-stealth/stealthy 4.5++ Gen: aircraft and, I'd really appreciate if senior members can ans and alleviate as much ambiguity as possible. Questions are as under;
  1. What's the viable no 5th Gen: aircraft that PAF ought to acquire to successfully deter or even launch an offensive in time of conflict?
  2. What will be the total estimated cost of acquisition, maintenance, training, infrastructure and ground support for these birds?
  3. In real world scenario, what other options does PAF have apart from FC-31? I'm asking this as India already has invested in FGFA and, has option to go for JSF-35 as well.
I'm asking the above questions on the basis of various debates, discussions and opinions by military experts to aircraft designers that stealth in itself is a hoax as nothing is really invisible from radar. And with the advent of new powerful so called anti-stealth radars, it is that much more difficult to justify or pin an entire nation's hope on such a gimmick. If I remember correctly, Colonel John Boyd who envisioned F-16 and along with Fighter Mafia made it reality said in one of his interviews that, some 30 to 40 year old Russians radars can detect stealth aircraft of today. I reckon he was talking about Chernobyl 2?

Anyway, Colonel John Boyd may be biased in his statement but, there's a degree of truth to it as well. For example, the compromises that have to be made to make an aircraft stealth/stealthy will have an inverse effect on it's maneuverability. Meaning, stealth is inversely proportional to agility/maneuverability. Thus, an aircraft in theory can be made a true stealth, truly undetectable to the radar to the effect that, it will then only move in a singular vector, i,e., straight line. Making the said aircraft utterly useless for all intents and purposes as one can imagine.

I'm not saying that somehow diminishes the utility of stealth. But what I'm saying is, stealth is a set of compromises that directly affect an aircraft's mission profile to its mobility and maneuverability, which is a pilot's lifeline in case he/she is detected or in case of merge or many other combat scenarios, to reduce it's radar signature to the point where it can't be detected by enemy radar or at least deceive it.

Now that may look good on paper but, it's far more difficult to execute. A very good example of that is Lockheed Martin JSF-35 Lightening II which in recent years has faced massive criticism for it's inherent design flaws and what not. Now I'm not going to divulge on it as it will completely derail my point that, stealth as many of us believe to be is not "do all, end all."

On the other hand good, innovative, practical and cost effective use of stealth is now seen on likes of Advanced Super Hornet, Silent Eagle and Grippen NG. All of them, mature and war proven birds. Grippen, may be not so much but, I put it in the list based on it's advancement along the lines of F-15 and F-18. Yes, they're not up there with the likes of Raptor but, if Boeing is to be believed then they can sure give JSF a run for it's money. And if it's true, then, what that means for us, PAF, future acquisition, JF-17, the technology and so on and so forth? It's a world of possibilities out there!

Let me clarify myself again that I'm neither advocating that we ditch the idea of FC-31 or any other 5th Gen: platform IF available to us for stealthy F-15 or 18, nor am I saying that we immediately start working towards stealthy block of JF-17. But, what I'm saying is that we should recognize realities and plan and act accordingly. And, this brings me to the point which pertains to @MastanKhan's original post of needing a potent 4.5++ Gen: platform. And in my humble opinion, it can be none better then EFT. Why Typhoon, if I'm asked I'll elaborate my POV in an other post.

If we note then we'll realize that even today, USAF uses Raptors to establish air superiority over an enemy airspace but, TRUE devastation is brought by other 4th Gen: strike aircraft to heavy bombers. Even today, Fighting Falcons make up United States first line of defense, not Raptors. The analogy is, 5th Gen: aircraft have a very limited role even for the most advanced country in the world which sets the benchmark for rest to follow or strive to. The indispensable force in it's arsenal is STILL the 4th Gen: warplanes which make up 80-85% of it's fighting force for the reasons of cost, maintenance and serviceability to keep the jet airworthy.

There are varying reports that for an hour F-22 remains in air, it needs 30 hour maintenance on ground. True, untrue? You decide. But, if true then one needs to ponder that, what will be the average the maintenance time of Chinese stealth jet for every hour it's in air??? Or even Russian for that matter. Pulls the fun out of all this 5th Gen; stealth craze all of a sudden, doesn't it?
 
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