PAF options for IAF Jaguar upgrade

[Khan vilatey]

Just a correction. Su30s can carry 20 saaws each alone. So you’ll have to consider all su30 package with a pair being used as bomb trucks and another 2 pairs for air domination and ew cover. A bomb package alone can level an airfield. IAF probably doesn’t want to revel their attack profile as it is going to be their primary attack package in a full fledged war. This is one of reasons Saaws wasn’t used in last years attack and iaf went with mirage 2k hanging off the shelf weapons. Now saaws are even being integrated with hawks too, my understanding is saaws will end up being widely produced by private sector.

Yup I am aware of this but I don’t see it in a strike role outside of Bhamose deployment missions. It’s too big for a strike role. It would have significant challenges from the entire Pakistani air defence arsenal. It would be seen coming from a long distance, it would light up every radar.

so in an air superiority role it would create a distraction for our air defenses but in a bombing strike role it would be

Against an air force designed to shoot down su-30s. It would be a suicidal mission.

I don’t see su 30s used in this role unless Pakistan completely disable the 7-10 FOBs India has facing Pakistan. Where planes flying from west of India have to conduct strikes.
K

 

[SQ8]

The best solution is not to concentrate armour formations above squadron level at any one place....keep them dispersed during move, assembly and attack.....adopting specific attack formations in order to minimize the effect of air attacks.....

making max use of embedded AD elements (Guns, GM, GM/SP and shoulder fired assets), taking them along everywhere....

point is, enemy airforce should think twice before attacking....not due to the AD coverage, but due to small concentrations of armour formations available to attack...no one in the right mind would send an airforce sortie against maybe a squadron level formation unless it is about to get something sensitive....

Are there disadvantages to that?

 

[PanzerKiel]

Are there disadvantages to that?

Not at all, it's part of normal drills and procedures.... They train in peacetime on the same lines.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The DARINs are great interdiction assets but are no longer the pressing threat they were ten years ago as a program. The radar coverage over Pakistan has improved so the key requirement is greater battlefield AD. The PG’s are already pretty good at point defense interception but its also pretty good as an embedded asset against DARINs ... think Hurricanes to Spitfires in the Battle of Britain. The Spirfires(F-16’s, JF-17’s) hunt the escorts(although really they will hunt everything) and the PGs streak in at low level to go after the low levels attackers in Darins or M2Ks. The Su-30’s are pretty terrible at low level interdiction and strike so the M2k,Rafale & Darins will remain the premier strike assets for India.

The real threat is with the CBU-105’s against armored formations and we really don’t have a solution shown @PanzerKiel @Dazzler any thoughts on countermeasures for top down skeet attacks?

The only real solution is analogous capability. We can get a Chinese JSOW-like system with unguided submunitions (GB6), but the guided-stuff is tough. The one option I can see the Turks trying is re-using their miniature guided munitions (for drones) as sub-munitions in a JSOW-like weapon. That's something the Turks would do, but I don't think our planners think that creatively.

 

[Khan vilatey]

Su30 is got a pretty good EW suite. While the other aircraft carry 1 EW pod for the leader and the wingman. Su30s carries on every aircraft. Flankers are one of the main strike aircraft in IAF that's why the numbers. And about Brahmos, it's to do with the navy for now as only 40 are being equipped. My guess is the new Brahmos the lighter version is for land strike ( on the Chinese front) roles and it's far away from deployment. And you are not going to use a Million dollar missile with just 250kg warhead for bombing a land target. Its cost to utility doesn't make sense so saaw will be the primary weapon.

And about the last point, you made. IA will need 2 days to move their strike corps. So the initial penetration would be the pivots for which jaguars and mirages will be enough for the initial push with their turn around time. IAFs idea is to neutralizePAFs all front line aircraft within the first 48 hrs and push back PAF to a secondary line before employing SU30s from air dominance roles to a bombing role. 27/2 was a lucky chance PAF got in a no-war situation where if caught 2 su30s bling with an advantage of 25 aircraft.

You'll need to study the gulf war at the latest or even Kargil to know how a full-fledged war progresses. During Kargil, IAF use to send a package of 20 aircraft with cover and strike packages forward and paf stayed way due to the large cluster of pings from the other side. During the Gulf wars, the USAF used to send over 100 aircraft at a time. So don't expect 27/2 is a real war situation. while you try to ping the enemy even the enemy will be pinging you back in large numbers and your highest aim would be not to get the enemy but preserve yourself to fight another day.

Okk good talk. Before trolls come in I'm out of here.

Firstly, I would thank you for your contribution. This was the first non bluster reply.

I respect the strategy you presented but I disagree with this due to the assumption

here is the basis of my argument

your assumption is based analogies where
you Feel that IAF is analogous to the allied air forces numbering in 2000 ish fighter and bomber aircraft while Pakistan is equal to Iraq with a third rate service and capability record

in all conflicts with India to date 1965, 1971 , 1998 2019 paksitan has enjoyed a 4:1 kill ratio in favor of Pakistan.

India's front line capability is about to 500-600 aircraft while PAF is at 380-390 front line fighter aircraft. Both sides have tankers , awacs and other force multipliers and a robust air defence network. I don’t believe india will commit 25% of its Air Force in a frontal assaults against Pakistan. I believe the result will be over 90% losses in terms of India.This was seen on February’s 26th when India attempted to distribute Pakistan’s response by attempting at least 4-8 strike packages at different borders points but the strike element of mirages was still intercepted in Kashmir and forced the assets to jetson their munition and return back to their border. So I believe the fight will be a slow burn over months if not years till india achieves any air dominance over Pakistan.

The Su-30 MKI version based on videos from most Indian experts like abhijit Iyer Mitra or swamy is that the radar and jammer integration is very underwhelming. Interestingly enough I have not seen effective Israeli weapons most of the time Israeli forces use US or European armaments in their strikes. Israeli equipment was unable to stop the iranaian anti ship capability, the markav failed against ancient Russian atgm’s in Lebanon from the 60s and so on. I don’t think the IAF or india has confidence in the su-30 in the air domanice role let alone strike role. If the confidence level were high why buy the Rafael, why not buy another 200 su-30?

the fight with paksitan will be a long slog with China actively getting involved or passively providing aircraft and ammunition ins of officiant quantities like Russia did in 1971 and 1965.


I also believe Pakistan will buy 60 j-10c or j-11b or j-31 so in time of war chinese could readily replace complete aircraft.
All one would need to do is paint the Pakistani flag on these aircraft.

I don’t agree with your kargil analogy as the spearhead of the attack was conducted by Kashmiri freedom fighters and PAF was kept out of the fight yet two aircraft were shot down.

I understand both of us are patriotic and have points of view but I don’t see any evidence from all previous conflicts.
happy to discuss this further and I promise not to turn this into a troll war

k

 

[Khan vilatey]

So today I saw a new video speaking about using hawks for CAS using HAL runway denial glide bombs copied from the spice 250. This is what HAL came up with on their own without input from the IAF.

lol why would HAL think it knows better then the air force and upgrade and invest in integrating weapons on a trainer aircrafts, why don’t other air forces do this ?

so here is my assumption of how the conversation would have gone at the PAF hq when some one from the civilian goverment asked about this news and why we don’t do the same

hahhahahahahehhahahahahahshahhahahahahhahahahahahhah eeeee hhahahahahahhahahahahahhshahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahhahahahah

both officers fall off the chairs laughing. They then proceed to tell the representative of the civilian goverment why they have years of experience in air war strategy which allows them to laugh but to humor them they explain

1) trainer aircraft fly slower than the speed of sound meaning they would need almost complete air superiority to operate as they would be shot down by any fighter aircraft built in the last 70 years. Any combat mission would be suicidal

2) carry limited fuel which means they would have a very low combat radius even less than tejas

3) their Design is to allow training and hence typically have a higher IR signature and a higher RCS, don’t have complicated electronics counter measures, chaff and flare dispensers and no or very very limited radars. This would mean that conducting offensive operations against anything but freedoms fighters these aircraft would be useless. This is similar to the Tuscan used by the afghan Air Force

4) the wepons payload carried by jet trainers is less or equivalent to ch4 or winglang 2 drones!

The PAF is a brave services but sending pilots out in trainers on suicidal missions is not a professional option. Hence they would never waste hard earned investment money on dumb ideas like significant integrations of weapons in trainers. Even the wepons integration on the super mushak was challenged but it was a seen as a cheap option for the COIN market and there are no plans to use the mushak as a CAS platform against Indian armor.

k