PAF journey to excellence

[Wingman]

Oh, well...I guess it was the thought that counted...

You did not answer what do u wana prove???

 

[shr_bwp]

You did not answer what do u wana prove???

I have sent you your answer....

 

[Wingman]

I have sent you your answer....

I have sent the reply

 

[Wingman]

I have sent you your answer....

I was abe to contact with the actual F/O Shams who had three kills, through gmail. I am very honoured that he replied quickly. I wish he meet me and I would kiss his hands. My God he looked very smart as young F/O. I will quote his email in the forum.

2. Sir MuradK is very sick and hospitalized. He has three arteries blocked. Just pray for his health.

 

[Patriot]

^F/O Shams is a very nice guy.Replied my email in 5 minutes and answered all the questions i asekd..He is a very nice guy just like Muradk .

 

[Wingman]

Here you go read below email from F/O Shams

"Hello.....
Yes I am Mohammad Shamsul Haq with 3 kills and 2 damaged, shortly was known as Shams S.J. There was also a schamsul Haq.
I resigned in 1976 after about 10 years in the Air force, Then I flew as a Flight Instructor for Peshawar and Karachi Aero Clubs for another year and a half. Then I joined PIA & flew for PIA for another about 10 years, I left the Air force due to (Lets say internal Politics). I was a Flight Lt. about to be a Sqdn. Ldr. when I and some of my friends decided to call it a day and leave the service. I came to the USA in in 1978 and joined Eastern Airlines. When that Airline went bankrupt, I went to UK and flew a BAC1-11 for a saudi Sheikh.
In 1981, I joined Saudi Arabian Airlines as a Instrurctor on BAC1-11 and also flew the G11 and G111 for them till 1998. Came back to USA and joined Atlas Air hauling Cargo in the B-747 ( that job sucked) so I left them and joined NETJETS Flying the G4, and went back to Jeddah for 2 years to set up Net Jets Middle East then I came back to USA and flew for Net Jets till 2007, when I injured my back and Finally Retired. Now I own and operate my own business. Thats my short story so post it around so I dont repeat it. I WAS AND AM THE ONE AND ONLY THE FAMOUS SHAMS. I will check the web site when I get some time. thanks for the email keep in touch and may Allah give you your desired passion of flying may be in the Civil
Regards to All. Shams"

 

[FlyingEagle]

Here you go read below email from F/O Shams

"Hello.....
Yes I am Mohammad Shamsul Haq with 3 kills and 2 damaged, shortly was known as Shams S.J. There was also a schamsul Haq.
I resigned in 1976 after about 10 years in the Air force, Then I flew as a Flight Instructor for Peshawar and Karachi Aero Clubs for another year and a half. Then I joined PIA & flew for PIA for another about 10 years, I left the Air force due to (Lets say internal Politics). I was a Flight Lt. about to be a Sqdn. Ldr. when I and some of my friends decided to call it a day and leave the service. I came to the USA in in 1978 and joined Eastern Airlines. When that Airline went bankrupt, I went to UK and flew a BAC1-11 for a saudi Sheikh.
In 1981, I joined Saudi Arabian Airlines as a Instrurctor on BAC1-11 and also flew the G11 and G111 for them till 1998. Came back to USA and joined Atlas Air hauling Cargo in the B-747 ( that job sucked) so I left them and joined NETJETS Flying the G4, and went back to Jeddah for 2 years to set up Net Jets Middle East then I came back to USA and flew for Net Jets till 2007, when I injured my back and Finally Retired. Now I own and operate my own business. Thats my short story so post it around so I dont repeat it. I WAS AND AM THE ONE AND ONLY THE FAMOUS SHAMS. I will check the web site when I get some time. thanks for the email keep in touch and may Allah give you your desired passion of flying may be in the Civil
Regards to All. Shams"

In GDP 10 yearssssssssssssss comitment is lonnnnnnnnnngggggggg time for males but for females it is just 10 years. Am I right Dreamer and Patriot PP

 

[FlyingEagle]

Remeber 51 %

Forcetrip nobody is talking about religion here.I am talking about physical aspect.It is unrealistic to expect women to go beyond 10-11 years (While Air Force invests huge amount of money on them and expect them to stay for at least 25-35 years) ......

 

[shr_bwp]

Here you go read below email from F/O Shams

"Hello.....
Yes I am Mohammad Shamsul Haq with 3 kills and 2 damaged, shortly was known as Shams S.J. There was also a schamsul Haq.
I resigned in 1976 after about 10 years in the Air force, Then I flew as a Flight Instructor for Peshawar and Karachi Aero Clubs for another year and a half. Then I joined PIA & flew for PIA for another about 10 years, I left the Air force due to (Lets say internal Politics). I was a Flight Lt. about to be a Sqdn. Ldr. when I and some of my friends decided to call it a day and leave the service. I came to the USA in in 1978 and joined Eastern Airlines. When that Airline went bankrupt, I went to UK and flew a BAC1-11 for a saudi Sheikh.
In 1981, I joined Saudi Arabian Airlines as a Instrurctor on BAC1-11 and also flew the G11 and G111 for them till 1998. Came back to USA and joined Atlas Air hauling Cargo in the B-747 ( that job sucked) so I left them and joined NETJETS Flying the G4, and went back to Jeddah for 2 years to set up Net Jets Middle East then I came back to USA and flew for Net Jets till 2007, when I injured my back and Finally Retired. Now I own and operate my own business. Thats my short story so post it around so I dont repeat it. I WAS AND AM THE ONE AND ONLY THE FAMOUS SHAMS. I will check the web site when I get some time. thanks for the email keep in touch and may Allah give you your desired passion of flying may be in the Civil
Regards to All. Shams"

I am sorry Dreamer, but the book you quoted does not have this Shams as the famous Shams - Lon Nordeen clearly quotes Flt. Lt. Schames as the pilot on the 4th of December. Neither does Hali, and neither do other sources, including MuradK(who credited Schames and then said it was Shams) as I have pointed out repeatedly in previous posts: they all say it is the Schames including the Lon Nordeen book you quote.

The point is this: there is a lot of confusion about it. The other Schames is alive in Karachi as per MuradK(for whose recovery we all pray, Inshallah). Get a hold of him and tell him that he is incorrectly being called the hero of Dec 4th 1971 and that he (Schames) is an impostor riding the coincidence of his name with the true hero of 1971 who lives in Edmund, Oklahoma. Also, you need to let Hali know that he is wrong in crediting Schames for Shams' work. I asked MuradK to send me his contact but I guess due to his illness.
As far as Lon Nordeen is concerned he referenced the 1972 May-June issue of PAF Journal that quoted Schames with the 4th December kills on page 16 under the title "A feat unmatched in the Air". The PAF needs to issue a retraction for that story.

I cannot post attachments otherwise I would be happy to post images from the Lon's book - the book you remember and is the basis for your determination that it was F/O Shams. I have emailed the images to your yahoo.com address please confirm receipt and share your reaction.

So, once this is done, Oklahoma Shams can enjoy his heroism.

 

[Patriot]

But PAF Official Records, Kaiser Tufail book both credits Mohammad Shamsul Haq for 3 kills.

 

[shr_bwp]

But PAF Official Records, Kaiser Tufail book both credits Mohammad Shamsul Haq for 3 kills.

Can you provide an image of Tufail's story on the Shams kills? The book is not available in the United States. Thank you.

PS: to your observation, then why do other people credit Schames with the kills including the same PAF Official records???? In the end it does not matter...

 

[chindit]

there seemed to be two shams. I have read the PAF history in a library a long ago and clearly they said two pilots one a Schames, the other a Shams. I think both claimed kills. So the person is right. he is not faking.

The paf history can also be read on pakdef 71 war section.

---------- Post added at 02:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:35 PM ----------

dreamer ji excellent research work. i am indeed privileged to read from a war veteran (even if from the other side)

 

[Wingman]

Can you provide an image of Tufail's story on the Shams kills? The book is not available in the United States. Thank you.

PS: to your observation, then why do other people credit Schames with the kills including the same PAF Official records???? In the end it does not matter...

As far as myself is concerned I damn clear I have seen the picture of 60 year old Shams and 22 year old Shams both are same, it must be typing mistake or something else...I have heard that from a pilot of 1971 war; how his OC changed the films of gun camera and got the credit of the kill... It happens....it seems to me that F/O shams (with 3 kills) left PAF due to such terrible reasons. Sometimes PAF was very blunt in giving the medals the deserving ones were just..ignored..I mean S A Rafiqui Sb would have been given Nishan e Haider in 1965 war...

 

[Wingman]

In GDP 10 yearssssssssssssss comitment is lonnnnnnnnnngggggggg time for males but for females it is just 10 years. Am I right Dreamer and Patriot PP

Yes a great hero of 1971 war; who in his early 20's bagged 3 enemy aircrafts, at least he returned something big against his investment .....on the other hand PAF invested on female pilots two of them were capable of flying jets...and still they dont wana fly them...the culprit one perhaps F/O Hina Javed, who simply refused to fly..MuradK had written in his posts in the forum somewhere...

I would say to you just show some respect for F/O Shams

 

[FlyingEagle]

Yes a great hero of 1971 war; who in his early 20's bagged 3 enemy aircrafts, at least he returned something big against his investment .....on the other hand PAF invested on female pilots two of them were capable of flying jets...and still they dont wana fly them...the culprit one perhaps F/O Hina Javed, who simply refused to fly..MuradK had written in his posts in the forum somewhere...

I would say to you just show some respect for F/O Shams

Just three point to clear:

First, Don't take me wrong. Mr. Shams is a respected personality for the nation and for me too. He is a hero. My father told me many pilots during his time get retired after 10 to 11 years service. Some of them really become unfit and some of them get retired "aysy hi" and joined private companies. Mstly out of Pakistan.

Second, I read Sir Murad reply. It was on "CNN report about PAF Female pilots". I remember in the same reply he also admit that girls can fly fighters and they can do many things but time required for this. May be a year or two or more.

Third, But my point of view is same, stop hiring is not the solution and how you can generalise all the girls. And dear 2 is not a big number to discuss. As Sir Murad also said that 108 in his batch start graduation, only 18 did that and only 6 of them fly fighters. We are talking about one batch. And figures for girls are 7 start it, (1 get sward of honor) only 1 qualify after graduation and then quit. Its only 1 not even 2. Ms Ambreen Gull is her name.