PAF going for MI-35 attack helicopters?

[Riteon]

^^^^^


they are hoping Access to warm regions down below , like china in Gwadar will entice the Bear

 

[Viper0011.]

I asked you what kinda advantage pak will offer to Russia????

one simple question.....
so you are saying.... russia will prefer pakistan than India???? hmmmm

Pakistan will offer to Russia that Russia couldn't get to after 10 years of intense fighting and spending trillions of dollars, loss of thousands of soldiers and military equipment in Afg war.....ACCESS to the warm waters and the port of Gwadar or partial access to Karachi.

Through which, Russia will NOT only have (and would love to have) significant Russian military presence, a naval base for resupplies, stocks or small fixes (RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TRADE & OIL ROUTES) AND ROAD access throughout central Asia and to Iran and China. You can't beat that from an economic standpoint. This THEN becomes Russian national security priority. It doesn't matter how many JV's India or China has with them. No one compromises on their home priorities. Just like no one shares their wife. It's THAT strategic.
Importance of it can also be seen that the US, Israel and others took a huge chance in the Agf war for ten years by supplying weapons. And Russia took the chance to initiate the war and broke into pieces!!!
Can it get any more intense than that? A country took the chance and broke into pieces to access the warm waters. You think it'll care for a 5, 10 05 50 billion (jv for the PakFa) that's designed to take a client AWAY so everything is developed in India???

If American equipment was to be caught....knowing Russia....it may have resulted in the nuclear or WWIII. So you can imagine the severity of this 'warm water access' on both counts, the Russian and the Western.

do you know just Pak-fa or FGFA contract costs 35 Billion dollors..... what are the size of Pakistan military budget..... there is a hell lot of difference between Importance of India and pakistan .......

Read above, this is a serious issue. I don't think 5,10 or 50 billion matters here. A relevant example is Saudi Arabia. No matter how many billions they throw to the US MIT (and they've thrown a lot), the US government will ALWAYS give (even for free) advanced weapons to Israel as it is their national security priority. Now if Saudia (who has hundreds of billions of investment in America), was to ever tell us that hey, we'll give you 10 times the business, quit dealing with Israel or reduce your weapons supplies.....you really think the US will say YES? Hell NO!!!! At these severe national security levels, 5, 10, 50, 100 billions are really non issues, even if a country has to suffer due to rejection of the proposal. The US lost hundreds of billions of investment through Arab countries a few times, but it didn't change it national security policies.

Russian access to warm water is BEYOND any 'JV or cooperation' that any country may have with Russia and may have objections. That's the real world we live in. Welcome to global politics!

It'll work a LOT better this time around. Previously, Russia wanted to crush Pakistan to get to the warm water. That obviously spitted on their face hard and cut their vital parts out. This time, they are very appreciative of Pakistan's efforts in crushing the terrorism, they also support the drone attack issue. They've openly accepted Pakistan as a nuclear state and one that they want to work with and consider important.
All the above, is a reflection of a new world order or a major alliance. Russia wants gain its empirical status and this is THE way for them. Plus they also know Pakistanis are just as smart as other nations. You have a population of 200 million (the whole US has 330 million in such a big area). So this also provides the Russian and the Chinese (and the Indian if they want to work together), a huge market accessible through road, talent and cheaper labor to produce their products. It'll take about 5-10 years for the Pakistani security situation to get better (granted civilian rule remains, not the current one, but somewhat honest civilian rule). I see Pakistan shinning soon as long as its society can respect others, has tolerance and workmanship towards other cultures, races and religions!

 

[Tshering22]

Azerbaijan has bought 36 Mi-35M for around $600 million. It is also being purchased by Russian Air Force, Brazil bought 12 and Venezuela 10.

Buddy, no doubt that the Mi-35 is a lethal platform. We have been using it for ages in our air force and it has worked wonderfully well for us. Let me highlight some points about Mi-35 series:

PROS
- Multirole attack helicopter able to carry special forces
- High payload of weapons making it a flying tank
- Excellent in terms of value for money
- Easy availability with zero chances of sanctions

CONS
- Extremely heavy when fully loaded
- Ceiling height is a problem for Pakistan as it sits its northern portion alongside our territory in Himalayas.
- Using attack helos in mountainous terrain to hunt Taliban means that helicopters require agility. Mi-35 isn't agile at that altitude.

Azerbaijan, Russia and Brazil have much lower mountains and therefore an attack helo with so much firepower suits them. In fact, Brazil's highest peak, Pico da Neblina (I've been there personally) is just around 9,000 feet which is nothing compared to what the Pakistanis have. A Mi-35's ceiling is slightly over that which is okay for the country. Even your own home country is only hilly.

But Pakistan is mountainous, especially northern part that borders us. It has jagged peaks and sharp turns that require the pilots to be on constant vigil. Maneuverability is a key factor in ensuring that the pilots make it back alive and with the machine. In such tense conditions, Pakistanis have to hunt Taliban which means be ready to expect an RPG from anywhere (including beyond the visual field of the gunship crew).

Mi-35 just won't cut it for them, as the nature of their internal war would deter them from using such a heavy machine. They're lethal for fighting against tank columns or enemy armor on plains, but in the Himalayas they are useless.

Remember, the Russians also faced same problem in the Afghan war when their Krokodils couldn't take on Afghanistan's mountains.

When we had a war with Pakistanis in 1999, Mi-35s found it extremely difficult to reach Tiger Hill's altitude, pressing the Army to use armed variants of the Mi-17 transport helicopter which despite higher ceiling and endurance, performed poorly. This then caused them to rely on IAF's fighter jets instead.The brainchild of that war resulted in what we are developing: LCH Dhruv; a high-altitude, high endurance light combat helicopter which is exactly the class of gunships that Pakistan currently needs.

The Pakistani members here must understand that an aversion to Western equipment on forums looks nice, but in real life, your entire military's infrastructure is oriented towards West.

Dismantling all that would take years before a new platform can become your military's backbone, especially something as tactical as an attack helicopter. So take that into consideration.

Please understand that due to both operational, financial and infrastructural requirements, the Mi-35s simply won't suit your operations.

Trust me; our air force has been using these beasts since USSR's era and we know what we're talking about.


Pakistanis are better off with the following (non-American made):

1- Eurocopter Tiger (100% European)
2- AW/TAI-129 (European/Turkish with American engines)
3- Ka-52 (100% Russian)
4- Denel Rooivalk (South African with French engines)
5- WZ-10 (100% Chinese)

All of these are Light/Medium helicopters that are maneuverable and can handle the Himalayas relatively.

 

[danger007]

wow what a analysis... DID Russia shown interest on gwadar port???? Russia is pretty much connected with china... Russia and pakistan is not neighbors..... I guess Azerbaijan is connected between Russia and Iran....

so you are saying pakistan can offer military base for Russia.... they need improved weapons and JV to become strong..... what a lame analysis....

 

[farhan_9909]

Buddy, no doubt that the Mi-35 is a lethal platform. We have been using it for ages in our air force and it has worked wonderfully well for us. Let me highlight some points about Mi-35 series:

PROS
- Multirole attack helicopter able to carry special forces
- High payload of weapons making it a flying tank
- Excellent in terms of value for money
- Easy availability with zero chances of sanctions

CONS
- Extremely heavy when fully loaded
- Ceiling height is a problem for Pakistan as it sits its northern portion alongside our territory in Himalayas.
- Using attack helos in mountainous terrain to hunt Taliban means that helicopters require agility. Mi-35 isn't agile at that altitude.

Azerbaijan, Russia and Brazil have much lower mountains and therefore an attack helo with so much firepower suits them. In fact, Brazil's highest peak, Pico da Neblina (I've been there personally) is just around 9,000 feet which is nothing compared to what the Pakistanis have. A Mi-35's ceiling is slightly over that which is okay for the country. Even your own home country is only hilly.

But Pakistan is mountainous, especially northern part that borders us. It has jagged peaks and sharp turns that require the pilots to be on constant vigil. Maneuverability is a key factor in ensuring that the pilots make it back alive and with the machine. In such tense conditions, Pakistanis have to hunt Taliban which means be ready to expect an RPG from anywhere (including beyond the visual field of the gunship crew).

Mi-35 just won't cut it for them, as the nature of their internal war would deter them from using such a heavy machine. They're lethal for fighting against tank columns or enemy armor on plains, but in the Himalayas they are useless.

Remember, the Russians also faced same problem in the Afghan war when their Krokodils couldn't take on Afghanistan's mountains.

When we had a war with Pakistanis in 1999, Mi-35s found it extremely difficult to reach Tiger Hill's altitude, pressing the Army to use armed variants of the Mi-17 transport helicopter which despite higher ceiling and endurance, performed poorly. This then caused them to rely on IAF's fighter jets instead.The brainchild of that war resulted in what we are developing: LCH Dhruv; a high-altitude, high endurance light combat helicopter which is exactly the class of gunships that Pakistan currently needs.

The Pakistani members here must understand that an aversion to Western equipment on forums looks nice, but in real life, your entire military's infrastructure is oriented towards West.

Dismantling all that would take years before a new platform can become your military's backbone, especially something as tactical as an attack helicopter. So take that into consideration.

Please understand that due to both operational, financial and infrastructural requirements, the Mi-35s simply won't suit your operations.

Trust me; our air force has been using these beasts since USSR's era and we know what we're talking about.


Pakistanis are better off with the following (non-American made):

1- Eurocopter Tiger (100% European)
2- AW/TAI-129 (European/Turkish with American engines)
3- Ka-52 (100% Russian)
4- Denel Rooivalk (South African with French engines)
5- WZ-10 (100% Chinese)

All of these are Light/Medium helicopters that are maneuverable and can handle the Himalayas relatively.

why are you guys wasting times?

just give a read to this post

 

[Armstrong]

@ Tshering : How does using a combination of the Mi-35s or some other troop carrying variant and a dedicated COIN aircraft working in tandem sound like ? The aircraft to be called in for air-support while the Mis dropping more troops to the (or nearby) the troubled spot all the while the aircraft loiters up above providing cover fire for the Mis to drop the troops and then return safely.

For the COIN aircraft perhaps the Super Tacano or even a dedicated K-8 version with kevlar fortified armor (or whatever is required !) be come up in the meantime.

 

[Tshering22]

Pakistan will offer to Russia that Russia couldn't get to after 10 years of intense fighting and spending trillions of dollars, loss of thousands of soldiers and military equipment in Afg war.....ACCESS to the warm waters and the port of Gwadar or partial access to Karachi.

Russians can still access the warm waters with a base in Yemen which would simply be a child's play (Yemen is very friendly with Russia).

Gwadar port needs to develop further as from what I hear it would take a lot more investment into not just port infrastructure but also ancillary factors like safety and security of shipments coming to the port. This would take some time to materialize as such a massive development takes decades to evolve into a smooth functioning. With Gwadar located in Balochistan, this may take sometime.

Through which, Russia will NOT only have (and would love to have) significant Russian military presence, a naval base for resupplies, stocks or small fixes (RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TRADE & OIL ROUTES) AND ROAD access throughout central Asia and to Iran and China. You can't beat that from an economic standpoint. This THEN becomes Russian national security priority. It doesn't matter how many JV's India or China has with them. No one compromises on their home priorities. Just like no one shares their wife. It's THAT strategic.

Look at this map of Central Asia and tell me how does Russia not have a road access (if wanted by them) to either Iran or China?
By the virtue of entire CAR being their former territory, they have access to all the countries you mention without needing your support.

What's more, if it is a port they want they can still tie up with Iran which is far more safer than the restive region of yours where Gwadar is located. Iran is not suffering from internal militancy which makes any cargo transit safer from Iran into any of the 'stans' and then straight into Russian heartland.

Importance of it can also be seen that the US, Israel and others took a huge chance in the Agf war for ten years by supplying weapons. And Russia took the chance to initiate the war and broke into pieces!!!

USSR's problems were internal that their ideological leaders failed to notice even before the war began in 1979. Soviet economy was slowing down and there were talks going around about what to do as their entire economy was centralized with no privatization.

The war only completed what was already started earlier. It by itself didn't cause the Soviet Union to break down.

Can it get any more intense than that? A country took the chance and broke into pieces to access the warm waters. You think it'll care for a 5, 10 05 50 billion (jv for the PakFa) that's designed to take a client AWAY so everything is developed in India???

Afghanistan war was not for warm waters as they could have done that by directly invading you. It was a war to preserve the Communist government of Najibullah in Afghanistan. BTW It was the government of Afghanistan that invited the Russians to help them preserve their regime.

Please read the correct history before coming to conclusions.

If American equipment was to be caught....knowing Russia....it may have resulted in the nuclear or WWIII. So you can imagine the severity of this 'warm water access' on both counts, the Russian and the Western.Russian access to warm water is BEYOND any 'JV or cooperation' that any country may have with Russia and may have objections. That's the real world we live in. Welcome to global politics!

USSR had already good access to warm waters through an agreement with India in the port city of Vishakhapatnam in Andhra Pradesh. This was not a full fledged Naval base but the agreement allowed them access for military cooperation under the Indo-Soviet Friendship Treaty.

I assume you are not wanting to make your country a host to another foreign power by giving them base? Correct me if I am wrong.

Read above, this is a serious issue. I don't think 5,10 or 50 billion matters here. A relevant example is Saudi Arabia. No matter how many billions they throw to the US MIT (and they've thrown a lot), the US government will ALWAYS give (even for free) advanced weapons to Israel as it is their national security priority.


Now if Saudia (who has hundreds of billions of investment in America), was to ever tell us that hey, we'll give you 10 times the business, quit dealing with Israel or reduce your weapons supplies.....you really think the US will say YES? Hell NO!!!! At these severe national security levels, 5, 10, 50, 100 billions are really non issues, even if a country has to suffer due to rejection of the proposal. The US lost hundreds of billions of investment through Arab countries a few times, but it didn't change it national security policies.

And what makes you think that Russia doesn't have other similar interests that would similarly and unpleasantly coincide with your non-interests? Example, you want the Taliban to rule as your proxy in Afghanistan; Russians don't want them there at any cost.

It'll work a LOT better this time around. Previously, Russia wanted to crush Pakistan to get to the warm water. That obviously spitted on their face hard and cut their vital parts out. This time, they are very appreciative of Pakistan's efforts in crushing the terrorism, they also support the drone attack issue. They've openly accepted Pakistan as a nuclear state and one that they want to work with and consider important.

You need to understand this; Russia was never at war with you. If they had really wanted to crush you, there was nothing you could do to stop them. Denying your nuclear status would neither help them nor would it benefit them. So what's the point?

I see Pakistan shinning soon as long as its society can respect others, has tolerance and workmanship towards other cultures, races and religions!

Now that is very broad minded of you, friend. I am sure that if genuine leaders come out, there is no reason why you should not be a stakeholder in the future. Cheers.

@ Tshering : How does using a combination of the Mi-35s or some other troop carrying variant and a dedicated COIN aircraft working in tandem sound like ? The aircraft to be called in for air-support while the Mis dropping more troops to the (or nearby) the troubled spot all the while the aircraft loiters up above providing cover fire for the Mis to drop the troops and then return safely.

Your plan is workable but you have to consider budgetary limitations here. Gunships especially the modern ones cost a lot. And when you buy new stuff, it means you are buying all of the infrastructure which includes, hangars, agreement to make essential parts (new assembly lines) under license, training equipment, instruction and possibly even simulators. This means the government has a large burden on its shoulders to not only establish a workable infrastructure setup for its new acquisitions, but also bear the cost of training or even recruiting new staff to fly them (new pilots at times).

This would mean that given the current situation, Pakistan would be wise to choose a platform that can give them a good payload of weapons and at the same time doesn't compromise on altitude, agility and cost-benefit factor.

For the COIN aircraft perhaps the Super Tacano or even a dedicated K-8 version with kevlar fortified armor (or whatever is required !) be come up in the meantime.

A fixed wing platform can never replace a rotary wing platform. Please understand that.

 

[Edevelop]

I asked you what kinda advantage pak will offer to Russia????

one simple question.....
so you are saying.... russia will prefer pakistan than India???? hmmmm

do you know just Pak-fa or FGFA contract costs 35 Billion dollors..... what are the size of Pakistan military budget..... there is a hell lot of difference between Importance of India and pakistan .......

Dude its not about who has the most military budget. If you are really insisting to get an opinion, Russia can find replacement for India by making it up from at least 3-5 countries if they want to. Since they are known as shrude businessman by nature, i think they will keep relations with India neutral. They don't pay too much attention or like interference in their policies. Geo-strategically speaking, Pakistan has more advantage than India. We border or have gateways to south asia, central asia, and the middle east and this is what the Russians are looking for. Do not forget that the Americans have military bases in the surrounding subcontinent. Russians will need to have super good relations with Pakistan to have presence and if this so happens, it will ultimately mean beginning of a 'weak' NATO.

 

[somebozo]

I asked you what kinda advantage pak will offer to Russia????

one simple question.....
so you are saying.... russia will prefer pakistan than India???? hmmmm

do you know just Pak-fa or FGFA contract costs 35 Billion dollors..... what are the size of Pakistan military budget..... there is a hell lot of difference between Importance of India and pakistan .......

the kind India cannot offer and indian cannot imagine because your geopolitical IQ is limited.

Back to parroting rising and shining Indian like a good boy.
Roman imperialism is doing good to you!

 

[danger007]

the kind India cannot offer and indian cannot imagine because your geopolitical IQ is limited.

Back to parroting rising and shining Indian like a good boy.
Roman imperialism is doing good to you!

Geopolitics from pakistan?? I doubt that...

 

[Tshering22]

I asked you what kinda advantage pak will offer to Russia????

one simple question.....
so you are saying.... russia will prefer pakistan than India???? hmmmm

do you know just Pak-fa or FGFA contract costs 35 Billion dollors..... what are the size of Pakistan military budget..... there is a hell lot of difference between Importance of India and pakistan .......

Guys let's not keep the posts in a "tu-tu-main-main" format.

 

[Viper0011.]

Russians can still access the warm waters with a base in Yemen which would simply be a child's play (Yemen is very friendly with Russia).

Gwadar port needs to develop further as from what I hear it would take a lot more investment into not just port infrastructure but also ancillary factors like safety and security of shipments coming to the port. This would take some time to materialize as such a massive development takes decades to evolve into a smooth functioning. With Gwadar located in Balochistan, this may take sometime.

Look at this map of Central Asia and tell me how does Russia not have a road access (if wanted by them) to either Iran or China?
By the virtue of entire CAR being their former territory, they have access to all the countries you mention without needing your support.
Please read the correct history before coming to conclusions.
USSR had already good access to warm waters through an agreement with India in the port city of Vishakhapatnam in Andhra Pradesh. This was not a full fledged Naval base but the agreement allowed them access for military cooperation under the Indo-Soviet Friendship Treaty.

I assume you are not wanting to make your country a host to another foreign power by giving them base? Correct me if I am wrong.




And what makes you think that Russia doesn't have other similar interests that would similarly and unpleasantly coincide with your non-interests? Example, you want the Taliban to rule as your proxy in Afghanistan; Russians don't want them there at any cost.

You need to understand this; Russia was never at war with you. If they had really wanted to crush you, there was nothing you could do to stop them. Denying your nuclear status would neither help them nor would it benefit them. So what's the point?

Now that is very broad minded of you, friend. I am sure that if genuine leaders come out, there is no reason why you should not be a stakeholder in the future. Cheers.

Your plan is workable but you have to consider budgetary limitations here. Gunships especially the modern ones cost a lot. And when you buy new stuff, it means you are buying all of the infrastructure which includes, hangars, agreement to make essential parts (new assembly lines) under license, training equipment, instruction and possibly even simulators. This means the government has a large burden on its shoulders to not only establish a workable infrastructure setup for its new acquisitions, but also bear the cost of training or even recruiting new staff to fly them (new pilots at times).

This would mean that given the current situation, Pakistan would be wise to choose a platform that can give them a good payload of weapons and at the same time doesn't compromise on altitude, agility and cost-benefit factor.

A fixed wing platform can never replace a rotary wing platform. Please understand that.

You have wasted SO MUCH time and effort (as a typical Indian response) to an unbiased analysis that actually has roots. I'll leave it at that. I'll let you maintain your opinion. You should come re-read my post about five years from now. I'd love to see your moth wide open thinking, wth happened?
Peace. I won't respond to he-said, she-said. If you have a problem with what I post. You are welcome to go get in the bathroom and cry in front of the mirror. No hard feelings!

 

[Peregrine]

Mi-35 is ugly as hell. Should go for Chinese one instead.

 

[Armstrong]

Mi-35 is ugly as hell. Should go for Chinese one instead.

You do realize that this isn't the Miss World Competition that we're talking about !

 

[danger007]

You have wasted SO MUCH time and effort (as a typical Indian response) to an unbiased analysis that actually has roots. I'll leave it at that. I'll let you maintain your opinion. You should come re-read my post about five years from now. I'd love to see your moth wide open thinking, wth happened?
Peace. I won't respond to he-said, she-said. If you have a problem with what I post. You are welcome to go get in the bathroom and cry in front of the mirror. No hard feelings!

How it is unbiased analysis??? You said pakistan will offer road connect between china and central asia. He mentioned that Russia itself very well connected with Asia and china.. Nothing gonna happen in 5 years.... Stop day dreaming...