PAF flurries: Iron butterflies

[muse]

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Suppose they had to do what the photographer asked them....may be this is more natural.

I meant the her body language suggests that she likes to be thought of as the "outsider", not a friend of any in the unit, the distance she keeps from the rest of the group, the constipated look on her face, a smile is too much of as burden for her to bear - while others in the unit stand and sit close to each other, touching each other, with their arms over each others shoulders, with smiles on their faces - these guys count on each other, whereas She is at ease being "distant" -- but then may be the Hijab explains much.

 

[Windjammer]

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Suppose they had to do what the photographer asked them....may be this is more natural.

I meant the her body language suggests that she likes to be thought of as the "outsider", not a friend of any in the unit, the distance she keeps from the rest of the group, the constipated look on her face, a smile is too much of as burden for her to bear - while others in the unit stand and sit close to each other, touching each other, with their arms over each others shoulders, with smiles on their faces - these guys count on each other, whereas She is at ease being "distant" -- but then may be the Hijab explains much.

To be a soldier, she doesn't have to lower her moral values, if one of her comrade had his arms around her shoulder, there'll indeed be some idiotic Mullah tossing his turban in the air.....if you remember the Sikh guy chosen to guard the queen, he was getting so much media attention, the poor chap couldn't focus....while on parade, his eyes were shifting everywhere...mouth wide open.....same applies to these ladies, suddenly they are exposed to all the limelight, pictures in International media, TV cameras focusing on them....would make anyone nervous...however what counts is their abilities to be amongst the professionals. !!

 

[muse]

To be a soldier, she doesn't have to lower her moral values, if one of her comrade had his arms around her shoulder, there'll indeed be some idiotic Mullah tossing his turban in the air....

Yes I suppose being part of the team would lower her "moral values" - and of course the Mullah tossing his turban would be the end of the world.

 

[DV RULES]

BTW, that's good for some extent but we know;
Staring in lady's hand like staring in .......'s hand, then what if jet in lady's hand!!!

 

[Windjammer]

Yes I suppose being part of the team would lower her "moral values" - and of course the Mullah tossing his turban would be the end of the world.

I was talking about her hijab which you pointed out besides to be part of a team....Papya'n....Japya'n is not a neccesary requirement. !!

 

[janon]

Very commendable of Pakistan to induct women in the fighter stream. If some of these women rise to senior ranks, or distinguish themselves in service, the government should popularize their success across Pakistan - for propaganda value if not for anything else. If a young boy grows up watching the faces of female pilots in the cockpit of fighters, or wearing the air force uniform, it is unlikely that he would later become the sort of man who shoots little girls for going to school. He would much rather shoot the mullah who orders such things.

I don't usually compliment somebody for doing a certain job just because of their gender, for that would be sexist. But these women really do deserve high praise, considering the fact that they probably faced a lot of social prejudices and taboos that their male counterparts did not have to face. They had to overcome all that, and fight certain (social) battles that the men would not have had to.

When Kiran Bedi became the first woman to become an IPS officer (one of the three elite civil services in India, and very prestigious for senior police officers), the government tom tommed her story across the country as a role model for young girls. And that had an effect - women began to enroll in bigger numbers in police forces across the country, in what was previously a male bastion.

So if some of these women have a distinguished career, the GoP should publicize their accomplishments across the country, in textbooks or billboards or other media. Empowering girls is a sure way of social progress in south asia, and is actually not that difficult if attempted. Put up some of these pictures on large billboards in places that the TTP or other such regressive forces have public support. Heck, put these pictures up in front of Vayu Bhawan in New Delhi, to give the Indian air force something to think about.

It's a crying shame that the IAF forbids such roles for its women, when some of them have performed eminently in flying roles. Its women pilots have landed helicopters on the perilous slopes of siachen, and even set a few records for heights and difficulty while delivering cargo. After this, the IAF grudgingly began training them to fly twin engine combat helicopters, and again they performed remarkably. But the IAF still refuses to consider opening the jet stream to them, citing all sorts of excuses. (While facing an acute pilot shortage.) Somebody should introduce these women of the PAF to them, and ask them a simple question - if Pakistan can do it, why cant we?

 

[That Guy]

Very commendable of Pakistan to induct women in the fighter stream. If some of these women rise to senior ranks, or distinguish themselves in service, the government should popularize their success across Pakistan - for propaganda value if not for anything else. If a young boy grows up watching the faces of female pilots in the cockpit of fighters, or wearing the air force uniform, it is unlikely that he would later become the sort of man who shoots little girls for going to school. He would much rather shoot the mullah who orders such things.

I don't usually compliment somebody for doing a certain job just because of their gender, for that would be sexist. But these women really do deserve high praise, considering the fact that they probably faced a lot of social prejudices and taboos that their male counterparts did not have to face. They had to overcome all that, and fight certain (social) battles that the men would not have had to.

When Kiran Bedi became the first woman to become an IPS officer (one of the three elite civil services in India, and very prestigious for senior police officers), the government tom tommed her story across the country as a role model for young girls. And that had an effect - women began to enroll in bigger numbers in police forces across the country, in what was previously a male bastion.

So if some of these women have a distinguished career, the GoP should publicize their accomplishments across the country, in textbooks or billboards or other media. Empowering girls is a sure way of social progress in south asia, and is actually not that difficult if attempted. Put up some of these pictures on large billboards in places that the TTP or other such regressive forces have public support. Heck, put these pictures up in front of Vayu Bhawan in New Delhi, to give the Indian air force something to think about.

It's a crying shame that the IAF forbids such roles for its women, when some of them have performed eminently in flying roles. Its women pilots have landed helicopters on the perilous slopes of siachen, and even set a few records for heights and difficulty while delivering cargo. After this, the IAF grudgingly began training them to fly twin engine combat helicopters, and again they performed remarkably. But the IAF still refuses to consider opening the jet stream to them, citing all sorts of excuses. (While facing an acute pilot shortage.) Somebody should introduce these women of the PAF to them, and ask them a simple question - if Pakistan can do it, why cant we?

A very back handed complement, we don't need it, thank you very much.

 

[That Guy]

I cannot, under any circumstances, undermine the resolve of women. It may yet be stronger then Men but it is the emotional/physical attribute as well as instinctual reactions in combat that matter.





It's one thing to be progressive but at what cost and what compromise? Women are just not equal to men and the best example is sports. In which sport do women take on men? Each and every sport (as far as I think) pits men against men and women against women. Do I have to give you actual examples? So if the women cannot take on the men, using the same advanced equipment, how can they be expected to take on men in combat unless absolutely without choice???

You're making to many assumptions based on nothing but subjective thoughts. Prove your claim scientifically. I can say that the sky is red but that doesn't mean anything, unless I can prove it.

woman should never been pilot because any man can beat then in dog fight one on one all hands up woman are lazy as compaere to man

prove it.

Interesting Body language

what do you mean?

 

[Mav3rick]

You're making to many assumptions based on nothing but subjective thoughts. Prove your claim scientifically. I can say that the sky is red but that doesn't mean anything, unless I can prove it.

Are you for real??? Lets take cricket as an example, can women compete with men?? They even need a lighter ball!! And that's as primitive as I can go.

Not just that, lets all be practical, how many really good women drivers do we encounter everyday in traffic??? If the same women cannot be as good a driver as a male, how can one trust her with a multi million $ Fighter especially against male opponents???

 

[That Guy]

Are you for real??? Lets take cricket as an example, can women compete with men?? They even need a lighter ball!! And that's as primitive as I can go.

Not just that, lets all be practical, how many really good women drivers do we encounter everyday in traffic??? If the same women cannot be as good a driver as a male, how can one trust her with a multi million $ Fighter especially against male opponents???

If you're saying that there are physical differences between men and women, of course there are. Men are stronger than women, but what you're saying is that women should not be pilots.

Also, in Europe, women have proven to be better drivers than men to the point that insurance companies were charging men more than women for their insurance. Women also tend to take less risks then men, preferring to use safer routes to achieve the same results.

I'm asking you, what is it that you feel hinder women from being pilots? Of course, you're just using circumstantial evidence, which really doesn't prove anything.

It has already been proven that women are more tolerant to higher G-force and pain, not only that, they tend to have better intuition and tend to think on their feet better than men. The only reason why armies of the past and present tend to be male dominated is because men tend to be physically stronger, but women have proven today that they're just as capable as men, especially since modern military's tend not to emphasize on physical strength, but endurance, tactical thinking and marksmanship.

Look, let's be honest here, you're being sexist. There is a difference between recognizing that there are differences between men and women, and defending unproven sexist remarks.

Can you provide me with one scientific evidence that shows definitively that women are not capable of being useful to the military?

 

[janon]

A very back handed complement, we don't need it, thank you very much.

The complement was not for you, it was for those women who don flying suits to keep you safe, and to guard the skies over you. And to the state of Pakistan and its air force for realizing their worth, and recognizing their rights. Unless you are one of those women pilots, or you represent them or PAF or the state of Pakistan, you are in no position to spurn MY compliment to THEM. Don't overrate your importance, because nobody has appointed you as their spokesperson. And nobody complimented YOU.

It was very much a compliment, there was nothing backhanded about it. In case you don't know, a backhanded compliment is an insult disguised as a compliment. I'm not sure how you arrived at such a determination about my post, because for all intents and purposes, I only meant to praise them. After I read this unwarranted response of yours, I read my post again a few times, to search for anything in it that could be misconstrued as an insult. Since I couldn't find any, my conclusion is that you judge a post or a poster's intention not through his or her words, but on the basis of the flag he or she sports. You saw a tricolor under my name instead of a green flag, and jumped to the conclusion that my words were not sincere. I guess that's what they call "trust deficit" between the two countries.

Anyway, if you think there is an insult hidden away in that post, use the 'report' button and send it to the mods. Insulting a country's armed forces in an infractable offence on the forum. (Althout personally I have reservations on when they choose to apply that rule.)

My admiration for those women and compliments to pakistan still stand, despite that country having too many trigger happy internet internet warriors like you, ready to defend its honor from all perceived insults. (Now THAT is a classic example of a backhanded compliment, and that is directed solely at you.)

 

[That Guy]

The complement was not for you, it was for those women who don flying suits to keep you safe, and to guard the skies over you. And to the state of Pakistan and its air force for realizing their worth, and recognizing their rights. Unless you are one of those women pilots, or you represent them or PAF or the state of Pakistan, you are in no position to spurn MY compliment to THEM. Don't overrate your importance, because nobody has appointed you as their spokesperson. And nobody complimented YOU.

It was very much a compliment, there was nothing backhanded about it. In case you don't know, a backhanded compliment is an insult disguised as a compliment. I'm not sure how you arrived at such a determination about my post, because for all intents and purposes, I only meant to praise them. After I read this unwarranted response of yours, I read my post again a few times, to search for anything in it that could be misconstrued as an insult. Since I couldn't find any, my conclusion is that you judge a post or a poster's intention not through his or her words, but on the basis of the flag he or she sports. You saw a tricolor under my name instead of a green flag, and jumped to the conclusion that my words were not sincere. I guess that's what they call "trust deficit" between the two countries.

Anyway, if you think there is an insult hidden away in that post, use the 'report' button and send it to the mods. Insulting a country's armed forces in an infractable offence on the forum. (Althout personally I have reservations on when they choose to apply that rule.)

My admiration for those women and compliments to pakistan still stand, despite that country having too many trigger happy internet internet warriors like you, ready to defend its honor from all perceived insults. (Now THAT is a classic example of a backhanded compliment, and that is directed solely at you.)

Oh, I'm sorry, let me correct myself, THEY don't need it.

I know what a back handed complement is, you said

If a young boy grows up watching the faces of female pilots in the cockpit of fighters, or wearing the air force uniform, it is unlikely that he would later become the sort of man who shoots little girls for going to school.

Why bring this up? Why say this in the first place? What place does it have in your little "complement"? Are you implying that boys who don't do so always grow up wanting to shoot or hurt women?

It would be like saying, if little boys in India joined the armed forces along side women, they're less likely to rape women on the streets.

It's a backhanded complement, no matter how much you look at it. I'm quite happy to accept the criticisms directed at Pakistan, God knows it's probably one of the worst places for anyone to live in right now, considering the many problems in faces. What you said wasn't a criticism, nor was it a "perceived" insult, it was a dirty comment that had no place of being there.

As for reporting, I'm not that type of guy. Even if you start throwing insults everywhere, I believe in free speech. I also believe that if you say something insulting, be prepared for the backlash.

 

[janon]

Oh, I'm sorry, let me correct myself, THEY don't need it.That's not for YOU to decide. As I said before, nobody has appointed you their spokesperson.

I know what a back handed complement is, you said


Why bring this up? Why say this in the first place? What place does it have in your little "complement"? Why bring it up? To emphasize the importance of success stories like these to change people's mindsets. And as an example, I talked about Kiran Bedi, and how her story inspired women to join the IPS and other police units in India. Whether you want to admit it or not, the entire subcontinent has a misogynist culture, whether it is India or Pakistan or Bangladesh. Not to mention places further west. In both our countries, women have to face a lot of prejudices that men don't need to. Many women are denied even an elementary education just because of their gender. This thread exists because women don't always get the same opportunities that men do. If the world (and Pakistan) was a paradise of gender equality where women and men are judged solely on their personal worth, then there would be no need for this thread, no need for the photographs and article about women in PAF.

And note that my post was not simply meant as a simple "little compliment", as you put it. If so, I would have simply said "Congrats" and nothing else. Other than the first line of my post, and maybe one other line, I was trying to put forward my views, trying to provoke people to think. It wasn't simply meant to compliment somebody and get a few thanks. I spent time and effort in writing it, because I like to discuss things.

Are you implying that boys who don't do so always grow up wanting to shoot or hurt women? No.

It would be like saying, if little boys in India joined the armed forces along side women, they're less likely to rape women on the streets. No, it wouldn't.

It's a backhanded complement, no matter how much you look at it. I'm quite happy to accept the criticisms directed at Pakistan, God knows it's probably one of the worst places for anyone to live in right now, considering the many problems in faces. What you said wasn't a criticism, nor was it a "perceived" insult, it was a dirty comment that had no place of being there.I have criticized Pakistan plenty of times on this forum. I have been trenchant in my criticism of Pakistan, its society, some of its practices, and of many of its people. Sometimes I have been given infractions for that. I have also occasionally criticized India and Indians, and members of the forum. However, this post was not intended as a criticism, and there was nothing dirty about it. It is your perception, which you will realize if you go back and read it. Maybe it is because you are new to the forum (assuming you haven't registered under different IDs), but if you are familiar with my posts, you will know that I am open in my criticisms, and that people don't have to second guess my intentions. You can go to my profile and read all my recent posts to know what I say when I actually intend to criticize somebody or something. (If I am not mistaken, my recent posts other than the ones on this thread are all ones that actually do criticize Pakistan.)

As for reporting, I'm not that type of guy. Even if you start throwing insults everywhere, I believe in free speech. I also believe that if you say something insulting, be prepared for the backlash. The "if" part of that sentence is not valid in this context. I did not say anything insulting, I only complemented, and I know that I was being sincere in that. I really don't have to justify myself on that, but I have taken the courtesy to do so, twice. This is the second post that I am making insisting that my compliments were sincere. I don't know why I am being so nice today. However, this will be the last such self-justifying post. If you still believe that my remarks were disguised insults, feel free to think so. Just like you believe in free speech, I believe in freedom of thought. You are free to think that, and I don't care.

My responses in red.

 

[That Guy]

My responses in red.

It may not be anyone's spokesman, but that doesn't mean that I should just keep quiet when I see such dirty comments.

What an arrogant reply, nothing you've said actually addresses my points, all you've done is be super defensive and continue to ignore the fact that you're being insulting.

You said "no, it wouldn't", pray tell, how is it any different? And the "IF" does apply in the context, because you did insult, you just don't want to admit it. Like I said, you've dismissed my entire argument, and posted a hyper defensive reply.

You're posting nothing but insulting comments, and frankly, you and I both know they're insulting. The only difference is that I acknowledge them as such, while you disguise them as complements.

 

[Windjammer]