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PAF F-16 mlu specifications and 36 blk 52+ prospects

Had US not released F-16s, I am sure we would have seen J-10As in PAF color. The issue was not with quality or anything but more demands specific. As per information, PAF floated its specific RFI for J-10B (which was on par with a new F-16 variant unveiled in Gulf 'hint hint') and CAC's response was what we see in the shape of J-10B. in J-10A PAF didn't have the freedom since it was already an in manufacturing product while in J-10B (which was in developmental stage) it could exercise more freedom. So PAF's decision was F-16 Block 50 (PAF's F-16s are Block 50 -due to PW engine- not block 52 which uses a GE engine) for any immediate threat from east while J-10B for its longer term requirements.
PAF has Block 52, not 50. The one with Pratt's engines are called 52, not the other way around.

Comeon you are talking as if PAF has 100 block 52s. There are only 18 of them. If another 32 J-10A's were added then 50 F-16 class jets is a formidable force. J-10a could have been a nice addition to the PAF. And don't count on F-16MLU much, it's radar range is even lesser than MiG-21 Bison's radar.

Are you sure J-10 is a fine fighter?
"But the J-10 already has a reputation as a maintenance nightmare, and that the Chinese are having a hard time keeping the aircraft operational in reasonable numbers. But the J-10 is the first modern jet fighter designed and built in China. The aircraft is an attempt to create a modern fighter-bomber that could compete with foreign designs. "
China Gives J-10s Away
 
PAF has Block 52, not 50. The one with Pratt's engines are called 52, not the other way around.

Comeon you are talking as if PAF has 100 block 52s. There are only 18 of them. If another 32 J-10A's were added then 50 F-16 class jets is a formidable force. J-10a could have been a nice addition to the PAF. And don't count on F-16MLU much, it's radar range is even lesser than MiG-21 Bison's radar.

Are you sure J-10 is a fine fighter?
"But the J-10 already has a reputation as a maintenance nightmare, and that the Chinese are having a hard time keeping the aircraft operational in reasonable numbers. But the J-10 is the first modern jet fighter designed and built in China. The aircraft is an attempt to create a modern fighter-bomber that could compete with foreign designs. "
China Gives J-10s Away
1- Yes indeed.
2- The value of even these 18 has posed enough deterrent for IAF, which will grow stronger as the MLUed Platforms increase in Numbers.
3-PAF doesn't need 100s of F-16s,her focus is mainly confined to eastern border. IAF needs hundreds due to: 1)Larger area to protect 2) more dimensions to protect.
4- PAF F-16 MLUs contain APG68 V(9) Radars.......
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...cations-36-blk-52-prospects-3.html#post971966
http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solutions/apg68/assets/APG68.pdf
5- Strategy page's each article about J-10 includes cut and past information from previous articles of itself. Just search it with J-10 and you ll find almost half of the article as the copy/paste of previous articles.
 
1- Yes indeed.
2- The value of even these 18 has posed enough deterrent for IAF, which will grow stronger as the MLUed Platforms increase in Numbers.
3-PAF doesn't need 100s of F-16s,her focus is mainly confined to eastern border. IAF needs hundreds due to: 1)Larger area to protect 2) more dimensions to protect.
4- PAF F-16 MLUs contain APG68 V(9) Radars.......
PAF F-16 mlu specifications and 36 blk 52 prospects
http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/so...sets/APG68.pdf
5- Strategy page's each article about J-10 includes cut and past information from previous articles of itself. Just search it with J-10 and you ll find almost half of the article as the copy/paste of previous articles.
-Indeed? You said the opposite.. well doesn't matter.
-Comeon, just because Strategy page lengthens its articles with copy paste jobs from previous articles doesn't take away that fact.
-No, you are confusing MLUs on Block-15 with MLUs on Block-15OCU. F-16 Block 15 will be upgraded with APG-66v2 while F-16 Block 15OCU(embargoed ones) will be upgraded with APG-68v9. Or in other words most of the MLU will be the APG-66v2 upgrade.
 
-No, you are confusing MLUs on Block-15 with MLUs on Block-15OCU. F-16 Block 15 will be upgraded with APG-66v2 while F-16 Block 15OCU(embargoed ones) will be upgraded with APG-68v9. Or in other words most of the MLU will be the APG-66v2 upgrade.




Pakistan – F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits
APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or APG-66(V)2 radar
10 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets.
http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2006/Pakistan_06-10.pdf

The package for Pakistan's new F-16s also includes:
36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft with either the F100-PW-229 or F110-GE-129 Increased Performance Engines (IPEs) and APG-68(V)9 radars
7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets;
7 spare F100-PW-229 IPE or F110-GE-129 IPE engines
http://www.f-16.net/news_article1878.html


Falcon STAR
Falcon STAR (STructural Augmentation Roadmap) is a program to repair and replace critical airframe components on all F-16A/B/C/D aircraft

F-16A/B Block 15 OCU
Beginning in January 1988, all Block 15 F-16A/B were delivered with an Operational Capability Upgrade (OCU).Many foreign customers upgraded their aircraft to the F-16A/B Block 15OCU standard





Modifications before the mlu :


The Pakistan Air Force currently has the Block 15 F-16A/B model in operation, which has an upgraded APG-66 radar that brings it close to the MLU (Mid-life Update) radar technology . The main advantage is the ability to use the AIM-7 Sparrow and AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles if they were ever to be released to the PAF.

Furthermore, the radar is capable of sorting out tight formations of aircraft and has a 15%-20% range increase over previous models.

All the earlier F-16s were brought up to OCU standards and have received the Falcon UP structural modification package.


http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article14.html




Falcon UP
Although the F-16 was originally designed with an expected service life of 8000 flying hours, actual operational usage has proven to be more severe than expected and this has been exacerbated by its growing weight as more systems and structure have been added to the aircraft. As a result, the anticipated average service life of the F-16A/B had fallen to only 5500 flying hours. Beginning in the early 1990s, the Falcon UP program restored the 8000-hour capability for the USAF’s Block 40/42 aircraft. Pleased with the results, the USAF extended the Falcon UP effort to provide a Service Life Improvement Program (SLIP) for its Block 25 and 30/32 aircraft to ensure 6000 flying hours, and a Service Life Extension Program (SLEP) for its F-16A/B aircraft to assure their achieving 8000 hours



-------
the above info clearly explains that its upto paf which engine to choose for the new fighters -- its upto paf to choose which radar it wants to put in the mlu fighters

--all older paf f16s are alreadyat f16 ocu level aswell as the falcon up upgrades ..

-- above link also shows that many countries upgraded their f16s to ocu standerd indicating that it can easily be done

--- please tell me why would paf need 10 spare v9s for mlu fighters apart from 7 spare v9s for newer f16s if it wasnt mlu - ing the old fighters with v9?

-- moreover paf non mlu f16s already use apg66
 
DT&E software tapes 1 thru 4

The DT&E aircraft now use the MLU Tape-1 software. This version will be replaced in June 1996 by the more extensive Tape-2 at the beginning of the OT&E phase. Tape-4 denote the final version which will be used in the Mid Life Update of other aircraft to be modified.

M1 tape

Development of the M1-tape went through four phases of Flight Test Tapes (FTT). In each of these test tapes, other performances where met, including:

FTT-1 tape

Radar performance evaluation
FTT-2 tape

Weapon modes Air-Air and Air-Ground testing
Navigation (INS and GPS)
Basic MMC core functions integration
FTT-3 tape

Datalink
IFF interrogation
Horizontal Situation Display
DTS integration
Cockpit color screen implementation
FTT-4 tape

"Clean-up" tape (intended as correction to imperfections found in earlier phases)
After the M1 tape, the M2 tape followed in 2000, M3 tape in 2003, M4 tape in 2005, M5 tape in 2008 and M6 tape in 2011. All these tapes incorporate other features, including:

M2 tape

Automatic Target Hand-off System (ATHS)
Integration of anti radiation (AGM-88) missile capability
Integration of target designator system
Further implementation of the Digital Terrain System
M3 tape

Integration of the Link-16 system
Integration of capability for GPS controlled weapons (GBU30/32)
Introduction of Helmet Mounted/Cueing Sight
Introduction of NVG compatible helmets
M4 tape

From this tape onwards the first release was already a subrelease starting at MX.1

M4.1 tape

Introduction of advanced short-range missile, as a replacement for the current Sidewinder (AIM-9X, IRIS-T)
Integration of advanced Link-16 functions
Integration of SNIPER targeting pods
M4.2 tape

Integration of the latest HARM Targeting System (HTS) and its R7 software)
Integration of SNIPER targeting pod and its S3 software (capable of cataloguing, storing and relaying target images using the Link 16 data-link. M4.2 gives the capability to use the HTS and Sniper ATP on the same aircraft)
This tape was the first common software for USAF CCIP upgraded block 40/50 airframes.

M4.3 tape

"Clean-up" tape (intended as correction to imperfections found in earlier phases)
M5 tape

M5.1 tape

Integration of capability for stand-off weapons (AGM-154)
Introduction of more advanced A/G weapons (EGBU-12)
Introduction of advanced Stores Management System and Joint Mission Planning System
Introduction of an improved GPS/INS system (more accurate and jamming proof)
Introduction of new Link-16 message standards to improve interoperability between different aircraft types
Installation of AN/ARC-210 VHF radios to enable radio contact with FAC’s on the ground
M5.2 tape

"Clean-up" tape (intended as correction to imperfections found in earlier phases)
M6 tape

M6.1 tape

Improved IFF system (Mode 5 waveform with better distinction between friendly and enemy aircraft)
Introduction of AIM-120D missile (two-way datalink, improved navigation and High-Angle Off-Boresight capabilities, a doubled range)
Introduction of more advanced A/G weapons (GBU-39 SDB, GBU-54 LJDAM)
Integration of improved Link-16 functions with net-centric capability
Integration of a new Universal Armament Interface to standardize communication between the aircraft and the weapons, illuminating the need for new OPF tapes with every new weapon system
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article2.html
 
-Indeed? You said the opposite.. well doesn't matter.
-Comeon, just because Strategy page lengthens its articles with copy paste jobs from previous articles doesn't take away that fact.
-No, you are confusing MLUs on Block-15 with MLUs on Block-15OCU. F-16 Block 15 will be upgraded with APG-66v2 while F-16 Block 15OCU(embargoed ones) will be upgraded with APG-68v9. Or in other words most of the MLU will be the APG-66v2 upgrade.
1-Indeed meant i quoted it opposite.
2- Here are the six articles form the web
1-China Gives J-10s Away
August 4, 2011: China recently announced that it would give Pakistan a squadron of J-10B fighter-bombers. That would be about twelve aircraft, which have been offered for export, for about half what the similar F-16 cost. The only buyer so far has been Pakistan, which ordered 36 J-10As earlier this year, with the goal of eventually getting 150. So the offer to Pakistan is mainly promotional (to get a foreign "customer" who can say what swell aircraft the J-10B is) and partly political (to show what a good ally China is, coming to the aid of Pakistan when the United States is threatening to cut the billions of dollars a year Pakistan has been receiving.)

However, the J-10 is the kind of gift most air forces would rather not receive. The J-10 is a strange, and dubious, war bird. Moreover, it was only two years ago that China publicly admitted that its new J-10 jet fighter existed. This despite the fact that the J-10 had entered service six years earlier, and there were plenty of J-10 photos on the Internet.

There are only about 200 J-10s are in service, most of them the original J-10As. they are being offered to export customers for about $42 million each. Currently, China is producing 2-3 J-10s a month.

The new and improved J-10B model carries improved electronics, including better radar warning, a laser range finder and targeting electronics. The new nose cone looks like the one on the F-16, indicating that the J-10B is to be fitted with an AESA (phased array) radar (which is more capable and more reliable than older types, but also more expensive.) The cockpit also has a larger and more detailed HUD (Head Up Display). The J-10B is apparently a much more effective aircraft than the J-10A.

But the J-10 already has a reputation as a maintenance nightmare, and that the Chinese are having a hard time keeping the aircraft operational in reasonable numbers. But the J-10 is the first modern jet fighter designed and built in China. The aircraft is an attempt to create a modern fighter-bomber that could compete with foreign designs. The experiment was not completely successful.

Work on the J-10 began over twenty years ago, in an attempt to develop an aircraft that could compete with the Russian MiG-29s and Su-27s, and the American F-16. But the first prototype did not fly until 1998. There were problems, and it wasn't until 2000 that the basic design flaws were fixed. By 2002, nine prototypes had been built, and flight testing was going forward to find, and fix, hundreds of smaller problems. It was a great learning experience for Chinese engineers, but it was becoming apparent that the J-10 was not going to be competitive with the Su-27s/30s China was buying from Russia.

The J-10 looks something like the American F-16, and weighs about the same (19 tons). Like the F-16, and unlike the Su-27, the J-10 has only one engine. Originally, the J-10 used a Russian AL-31FN engine, but China has been working for a decade to manufacture their own version of this, the WS10A. The WS10A is something of an acid test for them, as it is a powerful military engine, and a complex piece of work. Russia refused to license China to produce the AL-31FN, so the Chinese stole as much of the technology as they could and designed the WS10A. This engine has been tested, and officially approved for production, but apparently still has quality control and performance problems.

It's no accident that the J-10 resembles the F-16, because Israel apparently sold them technology for the Israeli Lavi jet fighter. Israel abandoned the Lavi project, because of the high cost and availability of cheaper alternatives (buying F-16s and F-15s from the United States.) But the Lavi was meant to be a super F-16, and incorporated a lot of design ideas from the F-16 (which the Israelis were very familiar with, as they used them, and had developed new components for them.)

Procurement: China Gives J-10s Away
2-
China's J10C Ground Attack Aircraft
by James Dunnigan
October 15, 2006
Discussion Board on this DLS topic

China is developing a fighter-bomber version of its F-16 clone, the J10. This new aircraft, a two seater, is the J10C. It was originally believed to be a naval version, but instead, it's an aircraft optimized for ground attack.

The first squadron of J10s entered service in early 2005. The J10 was designed and built in China, in an attempt to create a modern fighter-bomber that could compete with foreign designs. The experiment was not completely successful. Work on the J10 began twenty years ago, in an attempt to develop an aircraft that could compete with the Russian MiG-29s and Su-27s, and the American F-16.

But the first prototype did not fly until 1998. There were problems, and it wasn't until 2000 that the basic design flaws were fixed. By 2002, nine prototypes had been built, and flight testing was going forward to find, and fix, hundreds of smaller problems. It was a great learning experience for Chinese engineers, but it was becoming apparent that the J10 was not going to be competitive with the Su-27s/30s China was buying from Russia.

The J10 looks something like the American F-16, and weighs about the same (19 tons). Like the F-16, and unlike the Su-27, the J10 has only one engine. Originally, the J10 used a Russian AL-31FN engine, but China has been working for a decade to manufacture their own version of this, the WS10A. China has been striving for decades to develop the ability to manufacture high-performance jet engines. The WS10A is something of an acid test for them, as it is a powerful military engine, and a complex piece of work. Russia refused to license China to produce the AL-31FN, so the Chinese stole as much of the technology as they could and designed the WS10A. This engine has been tested, but apparently still has quality control and performance problems.

It's no accident that the J10 resembles the F-16, because Israel apparently sold them technology for the Israeli Lavi jet fighter. Israel abandoned the Lavi project, because of the high cost and availability of cheaper alternatives (the F-16 and F-15 from the United States.) But the Lavi was meant to be a "super F-16," and incorporated a lot of design ideas from the F-16 (which the Israelis were very familiar with, as they used them, and had developed new components for them.)

It appears that the J10 does not perform as well as the Su-27 for air combat, so the Chinese are reconfiguring the aircraft as a fighter-bomber. The J10 can carry over four tons of bombs and missiles and has been equipped with a fire control system for delivering missiles and smart bombs. The Chinese designed targeting pod is similar to the Israeli Litening, and they were showing it off as early as 1998. American warplanes use a later version of the Litening. The J10C will have a weapons officer to concentrate on hitting things on the ground.

China's J10C Ground Attack Aircraft
3-The Elusive Inexpensive F-16 Clone
December 29, 2010: As expected, China is now offering its new J-10 jet fighter for export. The price is $27 million, which is less than half what a new F-16 costs, but still more than the Chinese JF-17, which goes for $15 million. But there are still hundreds of used F-16s available, for under $15 million each. While the U.S. still has about 1,300 F-16s in service (about half with reserve units), over 4,200 were produced, and America has hundreds in storage. The end of the Cold War in 1991 led to a sharp cut in U.S. Air Force fighter squadrons. Moreover, the new F-35 will be replacing all U.S. F-16s in the next decade. So the U.S. will continue to have plenty of little-used F-16s sitting around, and these remain a cheaper and more effective aircraft than the J-10 or JF-17. But if a country cannot buy F-16s (because of embargos, or similar problems), J-10s or JF-17s would provide a respectable, if more expensive, substitute.

F-16s are still produced for export, and these cost as much as $70 million each (the F-16I for Israel). Some nations, like South Korea, build the F-16 under license. A used F-16C, built in the 1990s, would go for about $10 million on the open market. The 16 ton F-16 has an admirable combat record, and is very popular with pilots. It has been successful at ground support as well. When equipped with 4-6 smart bombs, it is a very effective bomber.

The J-10 is the first modern jet fighter designed and built in China. The aircraft is an attempt to create a modern fighter-bomber that could compete with foreign designs. The experiment was not completely successful. Work on the J-10 began over twenty years ago, in an attempt to develop an aircraft that would be comparable to the Russian MiG-29s and Su-27s, and the American F-16. But the first prototype did not fly until 1998. There were problems, and it wasn't until 2000 that the basic design flaws were fixed. By 2002, nine prototypes had been built, and flight testing was going forward to find, and fix, hundreds of smaller problems. It was a great learning experience for Chinese engineers, but it was becoming apparent that the J-10 was not going to be competitive with the Su-27s/30s China was buying from Russia. The J-10 looks something like the American F-16, and weighs about the same (19 tons). Like the F-16, and unlike the Su-27, the J-10 has only one engine.

The Chinese made JF-17 (also known as FC-1) is exported to Pakistan, and are being offered to Algeria, Egypt, Nigeria, Bangladesh, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Burma, Iran and Sri Lanka as inexpensive alternatives to American and Russian fighters. Hundreds of JF-17s are also going to be built in Pakistan, mainly using Chinese parts.

Last year, Pakistan signed a deal to buy the next 42, of 300, of these jets from China. These 42 will cost $14.3 million per aircraft. The final 250 will cost $12 million each. The aircraft is assembled in both Pakistan and China, with the engines coming from Russia, and most of the other components from China (which calls the aircraft the FC-1).

When the first JF-17 fighter arrived in Pakistan three years ago, it ended over twenty years of development for what was first called the Super 7 fighter. The JF-17 was developed by China in cooperation with Pakistan, which originally only wanted to buy 150 of them. All this came about because Pakistan could not get modern fighters from anyone else, and turned to China. At the time, China had nothing comparable to the early model F-16s Pakistan already had.

The 13 ton JF-17 is meant to be a low cost alternative to the American F-16. The JF-17 is considered the equal to earlier versions of the F-16, but only 80 percent as effective as more recent F16 models. The JF-17 design is based on a cancelled Russian project, the MiG-33. Originally, Pakistan wanted Western electronics in the JF-17, but because of the risk of Chinese technology theft, and pressure from the United States (who did not want China to steal more Western aviation electronics), the JF-17 uses Chinese and Pakistani electronics.

The JF-17 can carry 3.6 tons of weapons and uses radar guided and heat seeking missiles. It has max speed of nearly 2,000 kilometers an hour, an operating range of 1,300 kilometers and a max altitude of nearly 18,000 meters (55,000 feet). China has not yet decided on whether it will use the FC-1/JF-17 itself. This is apparently because China believes its own J-10 (another local design) and J-11 (a license built Russian Su-27) are adequate for their needs. The J-10, like the JF-17, did not work out as well as was hoped, but that's another matter. Meanwhile, Pakistan has one squadron in service, and another being formed.
China's J10C Ground Attack Aircraft
4-
Chinese Jets For Iran
October 25, 2007: Iran is believed (at least by Russian sources) to be buying 24 Chinese made J10 jet fighters. The J-10 looks something like the American F-16, and weighs about the same (18 tons). Originally, the J10 used a Russian AL-31FN engine, but China has been working for a decade to manufacture their own version of this, the WS10A. However, the WS10A continues to have problem matching the performance of the AL-31FN, which is still being installed in J10s.



It's It's no accident that the J10 resembles the F-16, because Israel apparently sold them technology for the Israeli Lavi jet fighter. Israel abandoned the Lavi project, because of the high cost and availability of cheaper alternatives (buying F-16s and F-15s from the United States.) But the Lavi was meant to be a super F-16, and incorporated a lot of design ideas from the F-16 (which the Israelis were very familiar with, as they used them, and had developed new components for them.) The Chinese deny any Israeli contribution. Pakistan is believed to have provided the Chinese with one of their F-16s for examination. There does appear to be a lot of F-16 technology in the J-10.



It appears that the J10 does not perform all that well in air combat, so the Chinese have been reconfiguring some of them as a fighter-bomber (the J-10C). This version can carry over four tons of bombs and missiles and has been equipped with a fire control system for delivering missiles and smart bombs. The Chinese designed targeting pod is similar to the Israeli Litening, and they were showing it off as early as 1998. American warplanes use a later version of the Litening. The J10C will have a weapons officer to concentrate on hitting things on the ground.



It's not known which version the Iranians are getting, but they will be getting them with the Russian AL-31FN engine. China already has over 90 J10s in service, and Pakistan has some on order. China denies that it is selling J-10s to Iran, but something is going on, and China has been supplying Iran with high tech weapons for decades. Iran is apparently willing to pay over $30 million each for the J-10s.
http://www.strategypage.com/print.aspx?sec=htmw&bi=htproc&fn=20071025
5-
New Chinese Fighter Succeeds By Failing
by James Dunnigan
June 6, 2005
Discussion Board on this DLS topic

China has had a squadron of J10 fighter bombers in service for six months now. The J10 was designed and built in China, in an attempt to create a modern fighter-bomber that could compete with foreign designs. The experiment was not completely successful. Work on the J10 began twenty years ago, in an attempt to develop an aircraft that could compete with the Russian MiG-29s and Su-27s, and the American F-16.

But the first prototype did not fly until 1998. There were problems, and it wasn’t until 2000 that the basic design flaws were fixed. By 2002, nine prototypes had been built, and flight testing was going forward to find, and fix, hundreds of smaller problems. It was a great learning experience for Chinese engineers, but it was becoming apparent that the J10 was not going to be competitive with the Su-27s/30s China was buying from Russia.

The J10 looks something like the American F-16, and weighs about the same (19 tons). Like the F-16, and unlike the Su-27, the J10 has only one engine. Originally, the J10 used a Russian AL-31FN engine, but China has been working for a decade to manufacture their own version of this, the WS10A. China has been striving for decades to develop the ability to manufacture high-performance jet engines. The WS10A is something of an acid test for them, as it is a powerful military engine, and a complex piece of work. Russia refused to license China to produce the AL-31FN, so the Chinese stole as much of the technology as they could and designed the WS10A. This engine has been tested, but apparently still has quality control and performance problems.

It’s no accident that the J10 resembles the F-16, because Israel apparently sold them technology for the Israeli Lavi jet fighter. Israel abandoned the Lavi project, because of the high cost and availability of cheaper alternatives (the F-16 and F-15 from the United States.) But the Lavi was meant to be a “super F-16,” and incorporated a lot of design ideas from the F-16 (which the Israelis were very familiar with, as they used them, and had developed new components for them.)

It appears that the J10 does not perform as well as the Su-27 for air combat, so the Chinese are reconfiguring the aircraft as a fighter-bomber. The J10 can carry over four tons of bombs and missiles and has been equipped with a fire control system for delivering missiles and smart bombs. The Chinese designed targeting pod similar to the Israeli Litening, and were showing it off as early as 1998. American warplanes use a later version of the Litening.

New Chinese Fighter Succeeds By Failing
6-
The Long View
by James Dunnigan
December 11, 2009
Earlier this month, the Chinese Air Force has announced that it had a F-22 type aircraft ready to make its first flight within a year. The Chinese recently clarified this announcement by revealing that the new aircraft was based on the existing J-10 fighter. Apparently, the Chinese plan to upgrade the J-10 design to the point that it is competitive with the F-35, and maybe even the F-22. In theory. The Chinese believe this aircraft will enter service within ten years. A lot can happen in a decade, so the Chinese claim has some basis in fact. But it depends on China mastering a lot of new technology.

China only publicly announced the J-10s status in January, 2007. What was not mentioned in that press release was that only one J-10 squadron was stationed where it might encounter Taiwanese F-16s or Mirage jet fighters. That squadron is sitting at a base just out of range (560 kilometers) of the F-16s and Mirages. The Taiwanese believe that their pilots are much better trained than their Chinese counterparts. Moreover, the word out of China is that the J-10 is a maintenance nightmare, and that the Chinese are having a hard time keeping the aircraft operational in reasonable numbers.

The J-10 is the first modern jet fighter designed and built in China. The aircraft is an attempt to create a modern fighter-bomber that could compete with foreign designs. The experiment was not completely successful. Work on the J-10 began over twenty years ago, in an attempt to develop an aircraft that could compete with the Russian MiG-29s and Su-27s, and the American F-16. But the first prototype did not fly until 1998. There were problems, and it wasn't until 2000 that the basic design flaws were fixed. By 2002, nine prototypes had been built, and flight testing was going forward to find, and fix, hundreds of smaller problems. It was a great learning experience for Chinese engineers, but it was becoming apparent that the J-10 was not going to be competitive with the Su-27s/30s China was buying from Russia.

The J-10 looks something like the American F-16, and weighs about the same (19 tons). Like the F-16, and unlike the Su-27, the J-10 has only one engine. Originally, the J-10 used a Russian AL-31FN engine, but China has been working for a decade to manufacture their own version of this, the WS10A. The WS10A is something of an acid test for them, as it is a powerful military engine, and a complex piece of work. Russia refused to license China to produce the AL-31FN, so the Chinese stole as much of the technology as they could and designed the WS10A. This engine has been tested, and officially approved for production, but apparently still has quality control and performance problems.

It's no accident that the J-10 resembles the F-16, because Israel apparently sold them technology for the Israeli Lavi jet fighter. Israel abandoned the Lavi project, because of the high cost and availability of cheaper alternatives (buying F-16s and F-15s from the United States.) But the Lavi was meant to be a super F-16, and incorporated a lot of design ideas from the F-16 (which the Israelis were very familiar with, as they used them, and had developed new components for them.)

American intel analysts believe that Chinese aviation technology (both design and manufacturing) is not yet capable of producing F-22/F-35 class aircraft. Given the experience with the first two Chinese designed and manufactured jet fighters (J-10 and JF-17), there is much doubt that China is capable of making the leap to F-22 class fighters any time soon. One of the big bottlenecks is jet engine technology. But China has been making progress in developing the technologies needed for their "Super J-10." The Chinese take the long view.
The Long View
6
Who's Afraid of the Big, Bad J-10?
January 30, 2007: The Taiwanese air force does not seem terribly concerned about China's new J10 fighters. In service for two years now, China only publicly announced the J10s status in January, 2007. What was not mentioned in the press releases was that only one J10 squadron was stationed where it might encounter Taiwanese F-16s or Mirage jet fighters. That squadron is sitting at a base just out of range (560 kilometers) of the F-16s and Mirages. The Taiwanese believe that their pilots are much better trained than their Chinese counterparts. Moreover, the word out of China is that the J10 is a maintenance nightmare, and that the Chinese are having a hard time keeping the aircraft operational in reasonable numbers.

The J10 is the first modern jet fighter designed and built in China. The aircraft is an attempt to create a modern fighter-bomber that could compete with foreign designs. The experiment was not completely successful. Work on the J10 began twenty years ago, in an attempt to develop an aircraft that could compete with the Russian MiG-29s and Su-27s, and the American F-16.

But the first prototype did not fly until 1998. There were problems, and it wasn't until 2000 that the basic design flaws were fixed. By 2002, nine prototypes had been built, and flight testing was going forward to find, and fix, hundreds of smaller problems. It was a great learning experience for Chinese engineers, but it was becoming apparent that the J10 was not going to be competitive with the Su-27s/30s China was buying from Russia.

The J10 looks something like the American F-16, and weighs about the same (19 tons). Like the F-16, and unlike the Su-27, the J10 has only one engine. Originally, the J10 used a Russian AL-31FN engine, but China has been working for a decade to manufacture their own version of this, the WS10A. China has been striving for decades to develop the ability to manufacture high-performance jet engines. The WS10A is something of an acid test for them, as it is a powerful military engine, and a complex piece of work. Russia refused to license China to produce the AL-31FN, so the Chinese stole as much of the technology as they could and designed the WS10A. This engine has been tested, but apparently still has quality control and performance problems.

It's no accident that the J10 resembles the F-16, because Israel apparently sold them technology for the Israeli Lavi jet fighter. Israel abandoned the Lavi project, because of the high cost and availability of cheaper alternatives (buying F-16s and F-15s from the United States.) But the Lavi was meant to be a super F-16, and incorporated a lot of design ideas from the F-16 (which the Israelis were very familiar with, as they used them, and had developed new components for them.)

Warplanes: Who's Afraid of the Big, Bad J-10?
This guy is self copy-catting the same thing from 2005, Next time he posts anything do make a comment on my behalf and ask him to at least rephrase the paragraph.
3- The official statement by US DSCA says "APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or APG-66(V)2 radar".
However the spares radar are only of one kind "10 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets"
Further These radar sets are separate from Block 50/52 requirements which are calling for 7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets.Secondly, I am rather surprised that PAF got embargoed F-16s as far as news and official announcements, these are EDAs (Excess Defense Articles), would like to know the source of your information.
http://www.dsca.osd.mil/pressreleases/36-b/2006/Pakistan_06-09.pdf
http://www.dsca.osd.mil/pressreleases/36-b/2005/Pakistan_05-18.pdf
US DELIVERS EDA JETS TO PAKISTAN
 
I wonder how strategy page got the wind of maintenance nightmares regarding the J-10..
First they say that the Chinese keep it all tight lipped.. yet they somehow wind up with details such as maintenance and pilot diets?? :confused:
 
I wonder how strategy page got the wind of maintenance nightmares regarding the J-10..
First they say that the Chinese keep it all tight lipped.. yet they somehow wind up with details such as maintenance and pilot diets?? :confused:
When you get 20$ for writing an article on a website which doesn't even scan for pledgerisim. You may even claim what is the color of PLAAF pilot underwears.Funny old James "dungeons":lol:
 
PAF have received a total of 5 Mid Life Upgraded F-16 Blk15 (upgraded to Blk-40 Std, details in initial posts of this thread).

any news when next batch is coming?
 
1-Indeed meant i quoted it opposite.
2- Here are the six articles form the web

This guy is self copy-catting the same thing from 2005, Next time he posts anything do make a comment on my behalf and ask him to at least rephrase the paragraph.
3- The official statement by US DSCA says "APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or APG-66(V)2 radar".
However the spares radar are only of one kind "10 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets"
Further These radar sets are separate from Block 50/52 requirements which are calling for 7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets.Secondly, I am rather surprised that PAF got embargoed F-16s as far as news and official announcements, these are EDAs (Excess Defense Articles), would like to know the source of your information.
http://www.dsca.osd.mil/pressreleases/36-b/2006/Pakistan_06-09.pdf
http://www.dsca.osd.mil/pressreleases/36-b/2005/Pakistan_05-18.pdf
US DELIVERS EDA JETS TO PAKISTAN

The china gives j10's away ... seriously this guy needs slap , 12mn$ jf17 u kidding me , If so i'd rather buy l15 lolx which is crazy ... point less
 
Maintenance Programs of Pakistani Falcons
Pakistan Air Force (PAF) inducted F-16 Fighting Falcon in January 1983. This provided a quantum leap to the PAF. It was PAF’s first experience of handling such a modern day fighter aircraft. From 1986 to 1988 F-16s participated in air defence missions carried out in Afghan War (1979-1988). F-16s played a vital role in guarding the western borders of Pakistan from Soviet/Afghan intruding aircraft. During the war PAF flew a total of 10,939 sorties and logged 13,275 hours.
This extreme usage of F-16s in the start of its career raised serious questions about its service life in coming decades. PAF went for development of in-house facilities for maintenance and overhaul of F-16 components. A F-16 Upgrade Cell was established at Sargodha Air Base. This cell was capable of performing depot level structural and avionics related modifications in the F-16s. These modifications include Operational Capability Upgrade (OCU), 479 Bulk Head Replacement Module and Wing box modifications.
In 1989, Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Kamra was assigned the task of overhauling the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-200 turbofan engine that powers the F-16 fleet in PAF service. The F-16’s structural modifications were made in engine, fuselage, ailerons and flaps. These structural modifications were a part of its type extension program. Reinforcement plates were also added on the fuselage to strengthen the structural integrity of the F-16s, thus extending its service life.
MRF has also upgraded the F100 engine from 200 to 220E configuration. The -220Econfiguration provides better performance and greater reliability. Up to 26 modifications were made in F-100 engines modules including fan, engine core, fuel nozzles, gearbox, high pressure turbine…etc

f-100_pw-220e-221x300.jpg

Engineers working on F-100 power plant at MRF facility. The F-100 modules repair/overhaul consists of Inlet Fan Module (IF), Fan Drive Turbine (FDT) Module, Core Module, Gearbox Module, and High Pressure Turbine Module (HPT).

Improvement in the service life of various F-100 modules is as follows:
Fan Module 1800-4000 Hours
Core Module 4000 Hours
Turbine 3500 Hours
Augmentor Module 4000 Hours
Gearbox Module 4000 Hours

The repair, up-gradation and overhaul of F-100 Engine, replacement of wing and fuselage fuel cells are also carried out by MRF. MRF has been certified for aircraft painting and de-painting as well.The F-16’s avionics, structuraland engine related modifications allowed the PAF to maintain a high level of readiness despite U.S. sanctions and arms embargo from the West and did not hamper the operational preparedness of the fighting force during both times of peace and war.

f-16_structural_reinforcement_plates_paf-300x267.jpg

A F-16B with structural reinforcement plate visible on its fuselage. Inset is close up of a structural reinforcement plate.

f-16_tail_paint_mrf_001-300x226.jpg

F-16A undergoing painting at aircraft painting facility, MRF.

Over the years,F-16s have participated in various multinational exercises around the globe. The devoted ground crew has always ensured the combat ready status of these falcons. F-16s participation in counter insurgency operations in Global War on Terror are the recent example of their combat record.

In June 2009, PAF, Lockheed Martin and United States Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) signed a contract of Mid Life Update (MLU) of these F-16s. Under this program, TAI will upgrade 41 F-16 A/B Block-15E aircraft at the TAI facility in Ankara, Turkey. It will also provide training to PAF technicians and engineers on MLU F-16s. After getting the MLU, these aircraft will be a mainstay aircraft in PAF for at least two decades. PAF will use these modified F-16s as a deterrent to regional threats and to strengthen the defense of Pakistan.
Maintenance Programs of Pakistani Falcons | PAFwallpapers Blog

Maintenance Programs of Pakistani Falcons
Pakistan Air Force (PAF) inducted F-16 Fighting Falcon in January 1983. This provided a quantum leap to the PAF. It was PAF’s first experience of handling such a modern day fighter aircraft. From 1986 to 1988 F-16s participated in air defence missions carried out in Afghan War (1979-1988). F-16s played a vital role in guarding the western borders of Pakistan from Soviet/Afghan intruding aircraft. During the war PAF flew a total of 10,939 sorties and logged 13,275 hours.
This extreme usage of F-16s in the start of its career raised serious questions about its service life in coming decades. PAF went for development of in-house facilities for maintenance and overhaul of F-16 components. A F-16 Upgrade Cell was established at Sargodha Air Base. This cell was capable of performing depot level structural and avionics related modifications in the F-16s. These modifications include Operational Capability Upgrade (OCU), 479 Bulk Head Replacement Module and Wing box modifications.
In 1989, Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Kamra was assigned the task of overhauling the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-200 turbofan engine that powers the F-16 fleet in PAF service. The F-16’s structural modifications were made in engine, fuselage, ailerons and flaps. These structural modifications were a part of its type extension program. Reinforcement plates were also added on the fuselage to strengthen the structural integrity of the F-16s, thus extending its service life.
MRF has also upgraded the F100 engine from 200 to 220E configuration. The -220Econfiguration provides better performance and greater reliability. Up to 26 modifications were made in F-100 engines modules including fan, engine core, fuel nozzles, gearbox, high pressure turbine…etc

f-100_pw-220e-221x300.jpg

Engineers working on F-100 power plant at MRF facility. The F-100 modules repair/overhaul consists of Inlet Fan Module (IF), Fan Drive Turbine (FDT) Module, Core Module, Gearbox Module, and High Pressure Turbine Module (HPT).

Improvement in the service life of various F-100 modules is as follows:
Fan Module 1800-4000 Hours
Core Module 4000 Hours
Turbine 3500 Hours
Augmentor Module 4000 Hours
Gearbox Module 4000 Hours

The repair, up-gradation and overhaul of F-100 Engine, replacement of wing and fuselage fuel cells are also carried out by MRF. MRF has been certified for aircraft painting and de-painting as well.The F-16’s avionics, structuraland engine related modifications allowed the PAF to maintain a high level of readiness despite U.S. sanctions and arms embargo from the West and did not hamper the operational preparedness of the fighting force during both times of peace and war.

f-16_structural_reinforcement_plates_paf-300x267.jpg

A F-16B with structural reinforcement plate visible on its fuselage. Inset is close up of a structural reinforcement plate.

f-16_tail_paint_mrf_001-300x226.jpg

F-16A undergoing painting at aircraft painting facility, MRF.

Over the years,F-16s have participated in various multinational exercises around the globe. The devoted ground crew has always ensured the combat ready status of these falcons. F-16s participation in counter insurgency operations in Global War on Terror are the recent example of their combat record.

In June 2009, PAF, Lockheed Martin and United States Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) signed a contract of Mid Life Update (MLU) of these F-16s. Under this program, TAI will upgrade 41 F-16 A/B Block-15E aircraft at the TAI facility in Ankara, Turkey. It will also provide training to PAF technicians and engineers on MLU F-16s. After getting the MLU, these aircraft will be a mainstay aircraft in PAF for at least two decades. PAF will use these modified F-16s as a deterrent to regional threats and to strengthen the defense of Pakistan.
Maintenance Programs of Pakistani Falcons | PAFwallpapers Blog
 
We all have heard that PAF might going to give follow up order of another 18-36 F-16s Block-52 along with some Block-40s from EU countries.??? Is it Real!
 
when will be the next batch of MLU F-16 be arriving? any news?

as far as the current situation, we have got 5 upgraded aircraft and the up gradation of all of PAF Blk15 F-16 is scheduled to be completed by August 29, 2014.

and also that four more are scheduled to be delivered within this year so this makes a total of 9 by end of 2012 and this leaves TAI with a task of upgrading 36 more in an year and a half to come!
 
^^ why is delivery taking such a long time? US has HUGE industrial capacity and must be churning out scores of these a year (maybe not anymore).
 

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