PAF and the JXX Fifth Gen Fighter

[Desert Fox]

Why do people open threads like JXX & PAF.

This is ridiculous thread

Lolz, but your the one who started this thread
Proof, here is your post: http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/85440-paf-jxx-fifth-gen-fighter.html#post1352615

 

[HavocHeaven]

Although People have confirmed the 5th generation project for PAF being made in Chine by their insiders.....etc....
A few arguments I would like to present.

1. We are yet to see the J-XX design/Prototype..... this J-XX was rumored ever since people saw F-22 flying and when we had
J-20 1st flight people were saying that XX=20 and a huge fighter appeared on screen.

2. China is currently facing a lot of problems in Engine production/manufacturing and are forced to buy Russians engines for the 1st lot of their 4th generation fighter J-010Bs.

3.We are yet to see any promising breakthrough in electronics, passive sensors etc...... on 4th gen. Chinese planes...... say for that matter we are yet to see a fighter borne AESA in service with PLAAF.

4. Some how it fails me to understand how would Pakistan pay for the developmental costs of the new fighter which people are claiming to be on par with PAK FA....... If a 15 million $$ plane is what they buy...... any thing on par with T-50 would coast around 150 million $$ per piece even going by Chinese standards..... about 10 times more.

5. If some how out of the deeper than Ocean higher than Sky and sweeter than Honey friendship forces PLAAF to fund for the development from their own pockets what number would the PAF would be able to purchase to provide adequate profits to the manufacturer...... any substantial order means 200+ birds to keep the mill running.

And to all those who are claiming that PAF has "GOT" J-10B we are yet to see them entering for limited scale production for the PLAAF which would test the fighter with regular pilots modifies and tweak the plane accordingly for commercial production which takes at least 1-2 years how can PAF have them now ??........ Chinese Members please shed some light here.

1. It's true China's WS-10 production capacity is an issue, but that's addressable.

2 According to one of J-10B pictures, obviously J-10B is equipped with an ESA radar by Nanjing 14th Institute. Huzhigeng@CDF mentioned that the 14th Institute responded to Shenyang F-35-like jet program's Request of Proposal with the J-10B's AESA radar solution, but lost to Wuxi 607th Institute. This implies J-10B, which is going to achieve IOC in a few months, is equipped with an AESA radar.

3. Huzhigeng said funding is not a done deal. So I was curious why not just acquire J-20 or the Shenyang fighter. I also agree profitability could be another problem. Probably co-production will be involved to minimize the cost? I don't know.

4. I also don't know the one squadron of J-10s will be J-10A + MLU package or J-10B. If PAF gets them any time earlier than 2012, I would be surprised if those are J-10Bs. Media says China government will pay for them, but it's not confirmed yet (I trust Huzhigeng more than media). If that's a free lunch, why not just take it?

 

[Beast]

Chinese other 5 gen fighter,SAC Jxx will make its first-flight in January. SAC JXX is a 5 GEN fighter of conventional design and it is bigger than J20.
Chinese jet engine is no problem,WS15's work is going along tip-top.WS15(tvc) will be the same level as USA F119.

there have at least 2 AESA options for chinese 5 gen fighter.J20's avionics will be the same level as USA F35 and all CAC J20 or SAC JXX avionics will be ahead of F22.

SAC JXX bigger than J-20? Then it will become a bomber... Or Chinese version of Su-34?

 

[houshanghai]

SAC JXX bigger than J-20? Then it will become a bomber... Or Chinese version of Su-34?

Just the same,but SAC JXX is a 5 gen fighter and it have 4S standards as same as F22 J20 T50.
huzigeng said SAC JXX is a offence 5 gen multi-purpose fighter , SAC jxx's major role will be A TO G.

 

[HavocHeaven]

According to what huzigeng said today.

j2x is a single-engined 5 gen fighter, especially designed for PAF and the first customer is just PAF .

Chinese other 5 gen fighter,SAC Jxx will make its first-flight in January. SAC JXX is a 5 GEN fighter of conventional design and it is bigger than J20.
Chinese jet engine is no problem,WS15's work is going along tip-top.WS15(tvc) will be the same level as USA F119.

there have at least 2 AESA options for chinese 5 gen fighter.J20's avionics will be the same level as USA F35 and all CAC J20 or SAC JXX avionics will be ahead of F22.

Yep, Huzhigeng said F-35, J-20 and the Shenyang fighter beat F-22 avionics wise coz F-22 is a design one decade ago, but overall F-22 is still better than all 5th generation fighters (F-35, J-20, T-50 and the Shenyang fighter). Specifically, rear RCS of J-20 is not even roughly comparable to F-22.

WS-15 program looks fine ATM. Let's keep our fingers crossed XD . I will be a sad panda if it failed.

 

[HavocHeaven]

SAC JXX bigger than J-20? Then it will become a bomber... Or Chinese version of Su-34?

If my memory is good, Huzhigeng described SAC JXX as a stealthy multirole fighter. It seems to me more like a 5th gen version of SU-30 than SU-34.

 

[HavocHeaven]

j2x canard version（ for your reference only）

Is J2X a Canard design? Is it upgraded J-10B, downgraded J-20 or something completely new?

 

[Ethnic]

Any photos of WS-15?

 

[houshanghai]

Yep, Huzhigeng said F-35, J-20 and the Shenyang fighter beat F-22 avionics wise coz F-22 is a design one decade ago, but overall F-22 is still better than all 5th generation fighters (F-35, J-20, T-50 and the Shenyang fighter). Specifically, rear RCS of J-20 is not even roughly comparable to F-22.

WS-15 program looks fine ATM. Let's keep our fingers crossed XD . I will be a sad panda if it failed.

Just relax you should believe our jet engine engineers will overcome all difficulties

Is J2X a Canard design? Is it upgraded J-10B, downgraded J-20 or something completely new?

it is not J10 or JFT variation .j2x is a new design 5 gen fighter.

SAC JXX is a conventional design.but the design of CAC J2X is still unknown . it depends that PAF will select canards or conventional design at last.

 

[DARKY]

1. It's true China's WS-10 production capacity is an issue, but that's addressable.

2 According to one of J-10B pictures, obviously J-10B is equipped with an ESA radar by Nanjing 14th Institute. Huzhigeng@CDF mentioned that the 14th Institute responded to Shenyang F-35-like jet program's Request of Proposal with the J-10B's AESA radar solution, but lost to Wuxi 607th Institute. This implies J-10B, which is going to achieve IOC in a few months, is equipped an AESA radar.

3. Huzhigeng said funding is not a done deal. So I was curious why not just acquire J-20 or the Shenyang fighter. I also agree profitability could be another problem. Probably co-production will be involved to minimize the cost? I don't know.

4. I also don't know the one squadron of J-10s will be J-10A + MLU package or J-10B. If PAF gets them any time earlier than 2012, I would be surprised if those are J-10Bs. Media says China government will pay for them, but it's not confirmed yet (I trust Huzhigeng more than media). If that's a free lunch, why not just take it?

1. Offcourse China would be able to take care of the WS-10 and it would get only better with time just like the AL-31 turbofans........however that would take time..... as it takes every where.

2. Might be, I was talking about an operational AESA...... collecting T/R modules for AESA is not just enough..... the main work on AESA starts with the flight testing of the radar and data integration of various microwave emmiters and reflectors.... a lot of algorithms has to be written and processed which takes time..... US took about 10 years to perfect that art..... hence it is rolling AESA after AESA very fast now...... there also has to be proper industrial manufacturing of Gallium and Arsenic T/R modules for a speedy and cost effective production...... I would expect China to perfect the art in about 5 years.

3.Yes why not acquire the J-20 instead which would save the cost and help the production line even.

4.Yes thats a free lunch the 50 J-17s aswell as 34 J-10Bs...... I can understand that China has very strong interests in SA..... and it is willing to provide top notch technologies..... but free lunch ??.... I would expect the PLA commanders to base their better equipments in Pakistan itself rather than offering them in their hands...... Pakistan is already giving them ***** to their strategic bases on their home soil.

According to what huzigeng said today.

j2x is a single-engined 5 gen fighter, especially designed for PAF and the first customer is just PAF .

j2x canard version（ for your reference only）

Chinese other 5 gen fighter,SAC Jxx will make its first-flight in January. SAC JXX is a 5 GEN fighter of conventional design and it is bigger than J20.
Chinese jet engine is no problem,WS15's work is going along tip-top.WS15(tvc) will be the same level as USA F119.

there have at least 2 AESA options for chinese 5 gen fighter.J20's avionics will be the same level as USA F35 and all CAC J20 or SAC JXX avionics will be ahead of F22.

So when do we get to see the photoshopped images of the single engined fighter....... or blurred images even ??
what engine it would be powered by what are the possible specifications ??

We'll see about the tests to be done in January....... Its not much far.... any way congratulations with the 2nd project in advance...... hope we would get to see some exclusive images from your side.

Bigger than J-20 means about 23 meters is it what about weight is it heavier ??...... If you are correct then there are very dismal chances that PAF would by your J-XX.

As I said AESA does not mean only packing T/R modules...... Flight testing/evolution of AESA is the most crucial part and it takes time.

We would see about WS-15 only once it starts flight testing WS-10 took 24 years to join the airforce..... I would expect WS-15 to take atleast 15 years..... If it is a new engine and not a bigger and upgraded WS-10 type.

Again its not matching or surpassing..... its about catching.... 1st reach where the 1st guy is running then think about overtaking him...... US has 100s of men currently working on even better avionics and they are not sitting idlely/lazily..... for Chinese to overtake them.

 

[Beast]

We would see about WS-15 only once it starts flight testing WS-10 took 24 years to join the airforce..... I would expect WS-15 to take atleast 15 years..... If it is a new engine and not a bigger and upgraded WS-10 type.

Again its not matching or surpassing..... its about catching.... 1st reach where the 1st guy is running then think about overtaking him...... US has 100s of men currently working on even better avionics and they are not sitting idlely/lazily..... for Chinese to overtake them.

I already say before. WS-10 took many years to complete does not mean WS-15 will be that long. Can I say if India take 20 years to complete Kaveri Engine then whatever new generation of engine made will take 20 years to complete? Surely, you will not agree on this part,right?

WS-10 is a very new and modern aviation combat turbofan for China during the 90's.. Of cos, the path to complete it is tough and challenging. Because China at the 90's and early 2000s technology is stil infant. But the complete of WS-10 gives many insight, patent and technology breakthrough for China aviation. Making possible subsequent generation of engine easier to develop. Experience gain also helps.

As for your assumption , US is not idling and will always ahead of competitor is awefully wrong. Project and capable man needs money. And it is precisely what US is lacking... Didn't you see recent US economic woes? Without money, even with most capable men. Nothing will happen. It is how Soviet Union(Russia) technology edge erroding. Their brightest engineer left when China could offer them millions of dollars instead of staying in Russia and rot.

China could afford 1000 engineers and work on the same project. Making it much faster than what the American did. The only problem is China start it much later than USA. Now we are playing the catch up game but the pace we are moving is much faster than the westerner can predict. China also pour in many money in its own talent and facilities.. Talents like Yang Wei and Song Wencong resposnsible for J-10, FC-1 and J-20 and Zhang Enhe (designer of WS-10)are good example of wise money spend and produce this pool of talent.

Mark my words. The next generation of jet engine after (F119)will be produced first by Chinese. Unless USA can quickly fix their economic woes. Their edge will be over very soon.

 

[HavocHeaven]

1. Offcourse China would be able to take care of the WS-10 and it would get only better with time just like the AL-31 turbofans........however that would take time..... as it takes every where.

2. Might be, I was talking about an operational AESA...... collecting T/R modules for AESA is not just enough..... the main work on AESA starts with the flight testing of the radar and data integration of various microwave emmiters and reflectors.... a lot of algorithms has to be written and processed which takes time..... US took about 10 years to perfect that art..... hence it is rolling AESA after AESA very fast now...... there also has to be proper industrial manufacturing of Gallium and Arsenic T/R modules for a speedy and cost effective production...... I would expect China to perfect the art in about 5 years.

.....................

Again its not matching or surpassing..... its about catching.... 1st reach where the 1st guy is running then think about overtaking him...... US has 100s of men currently working on even better avionics and they are not sitting idlely/lazily..... for Chinese to overtake them.

1. It does take time. Actually I won't be surprised if we import more AL-31 engines in near future. Engine manufacturing capacity cannot be improved overnight.

2. Agreed, an AESA and an AESA working properly could be two different stories. Japan's J/APG-1 taught everyone a good lesson. Therefore I won't 100% believe it before I see it.

3. Regarding avionics, Huzhigeng said avionics of F-35 of USAF is the best in the world.

 

[Beast]

1. It does take time. Actually I won't be surprised if we import more AL-31 engines in near future. Engine manufacturing capacity cannot be improved overnight.

2. Agreed, an AESA and an AESA working properly could be two different stories. Japan's J/APG-1 taught everyone a good lesson. Therefore I won't 100% believe it before I see it.

3. Regarding avionics, Huzhigeng said avionics of F-35 of USAF is the best in the world.

Probably the USAF version of F-35 is the best. But the export one surely will be downgraded...

 

[Asian.Century]

What is Pakistani new name for J31 stealth aircraft ?

 

[trident2010]

What is Pakistani new name for J31 stealth aircraft ?

Hawa Mahal .. lol

Its too early for this my friend.