PAF and The Case for Eurofighter Typhoon

[Basel]

Eft is too expensive to maintain even for much richer countries, impossible in my opinion for Pakistan.

If we want EFT then JFT block-4 with EFT tech should be considered to make that deal win win for both sides.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

I understand the need for multirole platforms, what is the likelihood that PAF will be flying combat missions to bomb Ambala in the future conflicts?

Hi, it seems you are getting confused at the role a swing role aircraft offers. Air dominance / Air superiority over any area can not be attained if the Aircraft flying over can get shot down by SAM's. Hence it is the ability of an aircraft to shift from Air to Air or Air to Ground mode in moments which is known as multi role.

Most of the senior members of the PAF still talk about disbanding the Bomber squadron and the consequences. A5's were dedicated bombers but PAF modified them and made them into a fighter. Why? PAF needs to fight an adversary which is almost 4 times in numbers hence PAF can not send escorts with the bombers.

I don't think its likely to happen, PAF is now a defensive force and as such will be defending its airspace so even if they go for T1 that would be an improvement over F-16 MLU's. Less strings attached, much newer air frames, performance that enables you to provide air cover to naval assets.

Defence or aerial deniability of Pakistan airspace can be attained by SAM's at a fraction of the cost. Those areas where SAM's can not provide cover can be defended by Point Defence fighter Aircraft.

PAF were using F7-PGs as point defence fighters,

This is called Asymmetrical war where the enemy is forced to higher losses in monitory terms. F7 PG are cost effective in this regards.
Did this question ever come to your mind "Why is India still operating the Mig21 Bis?" and "Why do they claim that PAF F-16 was shot down by Mig21.Bis?"

 

[Basel]

NO, develop a long range cruise missiles that is accurate and buy it in large numbers. 1500km range cruise missiles would allow whatever destruction you want, hell launch them at all Indian airbases in waves.

We need something like 3000km LACM with Naval version, Naval version will allow flexibility in operations and no place in India will be safe from our precision Stoke capability.

 

[NA71]

J10C means fill the gap...the immediate requirements of ASEA equipped Fighters .....so B3s will be through production lines and Js from direct buying....Get them up and operational in at least 3 to 4 squadrons (36 Js and some 12 to 16 B3s) till Rafales get operational status ...the time line is late 2022.

This combo will have the punch of PL-15 ....

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

J10C means fill the gap...the immediate requirements of ASEA equipped Fighters .....so B3s will be through production lines and Js from direct buying....Get them up and operational in at least 3 to 4 squadrons (36 Js and some 12 to 16 B3s) till Rafales get operational status ...the time line is late 2022.

This combo will have the punch of PL-15 ....

Sir,
36 J-10 will cost more why not get 50 additional JF-17 block 3 from China directly in the same amount. PAF has 15-16 aircraft per squadron hence getting 50 more JF 17 would give 3 new squadrons and similar fire power in terms of PL-15s.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

What makes you think even older typhoons are cheap? Why do you keep making this assumption?

The two articles below may answer your query!!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12614995
https://www.inquisitr.com/4681106/colombia-may-buy-used-eurofighter-typhoons-from-spain/
The whole debate has been factored around its costs. I heard on a TV debate that T1 and T2 are not that expensive to buy and set up(30 million a piece!!). Poor countries like Columbia are considering to buy T2!!! In the West Servicing,refurbishing and updating an aircraft is 50 times more expensive than our countries. F35,Tempest and other new aircrafts are the reason why the earlier Variants are being retired.

 

[airomerix]

The two articles below may answer your query!!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12614995
https://www.inquisitr.com/4681106/colombia-may-buy-used-eurofighter-typhoons-from-spain/
The whole debate has been factored around its costs. I heard on a TV debate that T1 and T2 are not that expensive to buy and set up(30 million a piece!!). Poor countries like Columbia are considering to buy T2!!! In the West Servicing,refurbishing and updating an aircraft is 50 times more expensive than our countries. F35,Tempest and other new aircrafts are the reason why the earlier Variants are being retired.

The articles you posted mean nothing. They do not disclose anything significant pertaining to the acquisition and operational costs.

The fact of the matter is, aircraft acquisition is not merely about upfront payments. Training, fleetwide integration, set up of maintenance base account for a major share in operational costs. European jets are way too expensive, starting from the flares and chaff batteries to engine overhauling costs. Furthermore, PAC will not be cleared anytime soon to touch Eurofighter. This means for every small upgrade or maintenance related matter, we will have some bills to pay in Euro's.

Lastly, T1 and T2 Typhoons have a very limited ground attack capability and they cannot be upgraded without incorporating structural changes. One of the prime reasons why T1's are being phased out.

This is just a sensational notion nothing more. Acquiring some 24 odd F-16 Block 40/50's at the same price from US will exponentially increase our punch with little or added costs.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

Acquiring some 24 odd F-16 Block 40/50's at the same price from US will exponentially increase our punch with little or added costs.

Agreed.

Training, fleetwide integration, set up of maintenance base account for a major share in operational costs. European jets are way too expensive

Even if J10c is inducted it will still have major set up costs!!! I wonder how we managed to run hundreds of European aircrafts(Mirages) for decades(surely a miracle).

T1 and T2 Typhoons have a very limited ground attack capability and they cannot be upgraded without incorporating structural changes

Unlike the American the Europeans are not that stringent in fiddling with their older machines. Turkish,Chinese,Italian,Spanish and South African technologies can be incorporated without a fuss. PAF is very flexible as compared to European airforces as the later has more faith in the local technologies(Genuine spare parts psyche).

This is just a sensational notion nothing more.

No sir EF is a completely different beast will enhance our knowledge base,will come with EJ200 engines(extremely better shelf life) and less maintenance/hour .The cherry in the cake for me are the METEORS if we can get them than a billion or so is a price well paying!!!

 

[Materialistic]

Agreed.

Even if J10c is inducted it will still have major set up costs!!! I wonder how we managed to run hundreds of European aircrafts(Mirages) for decades(surely a miracle).

Unlike the American the Europeans are not that stringent in fiddling with their older machines. Turkish,Chinese,Italian,Spanish and South African technologies can be incorporated without a fuss. PAF is very flexible as compared to European airforces as the later has more faith in the local technologies(Genuine spare parts psyche).

No sir EF is a completely different beast will enhance our knowledge base,will come with EJ200 engines(extremely better shelf life) and less maintenance/hour .The cherry in the cake for me are the METEORS if we can get them than a billion or so is a price well paying!!!

Few Points Bro:

.The purpose of inducting a new fighter is not just to "One-up" Indian procurement instead PAF needs to counter the cumulative effect of IAF after Rafale's induction. So we need the best bang for the buck!

.EuroFighter is way more expensive, the TOC for EFT and J10 are world apart! Cheap labour in Pakisan does not mean we can or we will be allowed to take care of complete maintenance of the aircraft - all on our own. And let's say all the service costs are being taken care of, even then the cost of the actual part is a concern.

.J10 or any other aircraft for that matter is up-gradable and maintainable as long as we want or technically feasible. But EFT has a major limitation. T1-T2 can't be upgraded to T3! Then whats the use of such an expensive purchase when its of limited use even now. It is no-doubt a great machine but we need a very capable strike platform too for which the available ones aren't ideal.

.Things were different before 80s and its a completely different world post 9/11. Pakistan is no longer a strategic partner and in future West & Pakistan are only going to go further apart. USA+ (NATO) see China as the primary threat and handing over EuroFighters to Pakistan means giving China the access for a detailed study of the aircraft's key components and especially the engine.

.Besides all the above, Indian market has much more weight being one of the largest defense buyers today. Why would any country leave a bigger deal on the table for selling a handful of aircrafts to us which they are already giving away at a throwaway price (as per your claim).

.One of the strongest argument of Pro-Brexit politicians was that Brexit would allow them to secure direct and more lucrative deals with countries like China & India!

And most importantly, post Corona - if world economy is a sinking ship then please remember we are the part of this ship which is already under water!

 

[wali87]

I think the Eurofighter bus has passed long ago. Also, I don’t think buying it would be a wise decision in the first place, mainly because UK would most likely impose a complete ban on spares in times of war. In my view, they’d never let us use them against the Indians even if we did end up buying them. They are way too finicky and petty as compared to the US and have too many vested Indian interests in their country. So let’s just close this pointless thread. Our project Azm is on track.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

mainly because UK would most likely impose a complete ban on spares in times of war

Never heard UK doing this!!!!We still operate some of their second hand ships etc

 

[GriffinsRule]

Agreed.

I wonder how we managed to run hundreds of European aircrafts(Mirages) for decades(surely a miracle).

Not really a miracle. We bought only 96 newly built Mirage over 20 years. And they, along with the used ones, are still in service for only one reason, the MRF. If we did not have that, those Mirages would have long proven too expensive to maintain and overhaul abroad. And even the MRF was set up initially in 1978 and we have been upgrading and acquiring more machinery from France over the ensuing decades and thus incrementally improving the local expertise.

There is no such setup coming for token buys of Typhoons or any other western aircraft as we can not really buy them in the same numbers nor acquire the technology to maintain them mostly in house without huge expenses.

Aircraft and such were also much cheaper back in the day, even when adjusted for inflation. So that is why we are still able to reap the benefits of flying hundreds of old European aircraft.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

And they, along with the used ones, are still in service for only one reason, the MRF

I am sure whenever we retire the Mirages, the whole complex of MRF along with its facilities will not be kept idle or scraped. Undoubtedly PAF will have some non Chinese options on the table to avail this multi billion Megastructure equipped with the state of the art Western facilities!!!!

 

[ziaulislam]

The articles you posted mean nothing. They do not disclose anything significant pertaining to the acquisition and operational costs.

The fact of the matter is, aircraft acquisition is not merely about upfront payments. Training, fleetwide integration, set up of maintenance base account for a major share in operational costs. European jets are way too expensive, starting from the flares and chaff batteries to engine overhauling costs. Furthermore, PAC will not be cleared anytime soon to touch Eurofighter. This means for every small upgrade or maintenance related matter, we will have some bills to pay in Euro's.

Lastly, T1 and T2 Typhoons have a very limited ground attack capability and they cannot be upgraded without incorporating structural changes. One of the prime reasons why T1's are being phased out.

This is just a sensational notion nothing more. Acquiring some 24 odd F-16 Block 40/50's at the same price from US will exponentially increase our punch with little or added costs.

Pretty sure PAF would have jumped at f16s if they were available (old ones or at a better price than inflated cost on offer now)

 

[mingle]

Pretty sure PAF would have jumped at f16s if they were available (old ones or at a better price than inflated cost on offer now)

After COVID You guys needs money??? So Pak is good client for Ur products how long U guys will print $$$$??? Better offer Pak F16s

Qatar buying
35 F15Q 6.2 Billion $$
24 EF 6.6 Billion $$$
24 Rafale 7.6 Billion $$
F15 still cheap and worth it if You see price along Same engine PW what our F16 s using along same sensors and weapon systems.