PAF and The Case for Eurofighter Typhoon

[Invicta]

True with COVID crisis I believe Pak should look into EF option too if loans are available we add them in small badges.
Americans were hoping bigger pie of slice in Indian market but India don't buy any offensive platform they were hoping F16s india didn't buy except few Helis and transport yes P8s reason Americans treatment with Pak India don't trust them in critical techs that why they buy expensive French

Thing is the relationship is in the starting phase, they sold on of their best aircrafts to PAF as in the F-16s. India would never go for anything that is even remotely similar to the F-16. F-18 did not fit the bill either so it was always going to be between EFT, Rafel. The french (I love the french) are sweet businessmen, they would have buttered every Indian politician they could have to get the deal done. Something EFT consortium would have lacked due to it being a consortium.

That being said India has bought some real nice goodies from USA, over time they will buy more. In my opinion Apaches were the deal breaker, if USA will not sell you AH1-Z but will sell Apaches to your foe.

You need to go elsewhere.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Never going to happen not this century.

Everything is possible, Chinese pouring billion of $$$ to do engine research, its ver much possible that they will surpass you in engine development fields in this century

 

[Robbie]

Theoretically speaking again, punch and prestige combo is an important element in warfare. JF-17 is a good punch element for the PAF but complementing it with a good Western platform would add prestige element (also enhance the punch exponentially), which would psychologically weigh heavy on the adversary. We have already seen how F-16s undermined the IAF's psyche (& that of India as a whole) during Op Swift Retort (OSR). Previously, in 1965, the mere presence of F-104 Starfighter forced IAF fighters to flee, and in that confusion, one IAF Gnat landed inside Pakistan (now in PAF museum). Right now the IAF has one-upmanship against PAF with their Rafale.

Rafale's are too few in number. 2 squadrons are not enough.
If IAF acquires 1 to 2 squadrons more, then yes, there would be a significant cause of concern for PAF. That seems unlikely because of cost considerations. The Indian defense budget has been declining steadily over the last 4 years.

There is nothing in the Indian arsenal right now that matches C5 in terms of lethality, accuracy, legs and in flight performance.

Well said. C5 exceeds everything in IAF inventory by a considerable margin.

 

[Invicta]

Hi,
In my opinion PAF will not continue to acquire J-10 or any other 4th generation fighter from China but procure only 5th generation technology. However what PAF is currently looking for is more sophisticated 3D printers and higher quality processing machineries for aluminium, carbon and others so that better, stronger and stealther designed aircraft can be produced under the AZM project.

Moreover PAF will never put all her eggs in one basket as was the case in 1965. Though we know that China is a far more dependable friend than the USA but still PAF will not take that chance again. Pakistan paid a very heavy price for this mistake.

There are many who would oppose my opinion on the pretext that there are non availability of funds, yet they will not deny the fact that keeping all the eggs in one basket could be a costly mistake and that too the second time.



Hi,
Tornado replacement will not effect sales to PAF unless and until Germany decides to upgrade their entire fleet of existing EFT's. The Germans should have gone for the Gripen rather than the F-15 and F-18 with EJ200 engines to compliment the existing EFT. But then this is not what we are discussing.

At present there are over 150 EFT Trench 1 available in the market. Over 200 trench 2 and 3 are on orders this does not include the German orders so incase those air forces who operate the trench 1 start to upgrade them to trench 2 will probably require an other facility. This was the very reason Turkey wanted to procure EFT but that deal did not go through.

The reason was that the Turks were asked to join the European 5th gen program. There are 2 5th generation programs currently in Europe the French & German and the British & Swedish.

No it will not affect the sale but it will lessen the burden, PAF has just started its 5th Gen programme. They should diversify and if UK/EU demand inclusion in the Tempest etc programmes they should go for it. They will only learn from each programme and it will help them develop technologies at home.

EFT upgrades are super expensive from T1 to T3 that's why there are so many T1 aircrafts on the market. Its cheaper for Germany to buy new T3 aircrafts than go for T1 to T3 upgrades.

As you say there are 200 T3 on order if PAF were to join they can share the workload and increase their industry base as well. Its a win win for Pakistan and PAF.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

If Trump got info Pak going to buy EF he will kidnap Pak like masks for F15 E which has same engine like F16s same weapon package like F16 easy to integrate than any European platform

PAF would never go for them as they have a very big RCS. 35 f-16 V over a time frame of 15 years could be possible.

Good and comprehensive reply. I have some mature Chinese friends in UK with whom i discuss in length Pak/China and strategic matters. They are the ones that admitted regarding Engine core technology China still lags behind Western Engines by 20 years. The US and the West have a monopoly on certain metals and alloys and guard them with their life. South Africa is one of their primary source and no other nation has access to them.
We have seen in Operation Retort that F16s were at the forefront in interception rather than the Jf17s in a high net centric jamming environment. And the missiles that were used were Amraans rather than the Sd10s. It also demonstrates that PAF was more confident in US/Western hardware!!!

Canada is an other potential source. The Canadians want to reopen this project because they want to upgrade their existing fleet.
https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/...9d911d78ff1224606962fa1d82aa1dbc&action=click

No it will not affect the sale but it will lessen the burden, PAF has just started its 5th Gen programme. They should diversify and if UK/EU demand inclusion in the Tempest etc programmes they should go for it. They will only learn from each programme and it will help them develop technologies at home.

EFT upgrades are super expensive from T1 to T3 that's why there are so many T1 aircrafts on the market. Its cheaper for Germany to buy new T3 aircrafts than go for T1 to T3 upgrades.

As you say there are 200 T3 on order if PAF were to join they can share the workload and increase their industry base as well. Its a win win for Pakistan and PAF.

Hi,
PAF will not join the Tempest program rather TFX. The AZM project picture that is shown by PAF resembles the TFX single engined aircraft and YF23 Dark Widow II.

T1 has nothing in common with the T2 and T3 needs complete structural modifications. This is the reason T1 can not be upgraded for multi-role, where as T2 only gives limited multirole options with high upgradation costs. There was an article published in one of the British newspapers regarding upgradation of RAF T2 to T3. Where RAF was stated as saying they have some of the last T2 airframes that were designed for T3 hence only those can be upgraded. This was the reason F-35 were chosen and more would be procured as RAF will not go for T3's in a large numbers to replace T1's.

Now If PAF went for the T1 then they would be for Air Superiority only and for a very short time till project AZM. This short time can be till 2030-2035 hence PAF wanted more F-16 MLU.

 

[Invicta]

PAF would never go for them as they have a very big RCS. 35 f-16 V over a time frame of 15 years could be possible.


Canada is an other potential source. The Canadians want to reopen this project because they want to upgrade their existing fleet.
https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/...9d911d78ff1224606962fa1d82aa1dbc&action=click


Hi,
PAF will not join the Tempest program rather TFX. The AZM project picture that is shown by PAF resembles the TFX single engined aircraft and YF23 Dark Widow II.

T1 has nothing in common with the T2 and T3 needs complete structural modifications. This is the reason T1 can not be upgraded for multi-role, where as T2 only gives limited multirole options with high upgradation costs. There was an article published in one of the British newspapers regarding upgradation of RAF T2 to T3. Where RAF was stated as saying they have some of the last T2 airframes that were designed for T3 hence only those can be upgraded. This was the reason F-35 were chosen and more would be procured as RAF will not go for T3's in a large numbers to replace T1's.

Now If PAF went for the T1 then they would be for Air Superiority only and for a very short time till project AZM. This short time can be till 2030-2035 hence PAF wanted more F-16 MLU.

I understand the need for multirole platforms, what is the likelihood that PAF will be flying combat missions to bomb Ambala in the future conflicts?
I don't think its likely to happen, PAF is now a defensive force and as such will be defending its airspace so even if they go for T1 that would be an improvement over F-16 MLU's. Less strings attached, much newer air frames, performance that enables you to provide air cover to naval assets.

PAF were using F7-PGs as point defence fighters, there is no reason why PAF cannot opt for these T1's as an air superiority only asset. If they do they will definitely keep them longer than 2035 even if AZM comes live within that time frame. Even then there is no guarantee that AZM will be ready by 2035.

 

[Armchair]

I am again going to approach this subject theoretically. Wars are too unpredictable to bet on a set of skirmishes. For smaller forces like PAF, it makes little sense to hope for such tactics against a bigger and better-equipped opponent. Probability of achieving limited gains might be low while probabilities of gradual attrition and depletion of resource could be relatively higher. For instance, India lost 2 to 3 aerial assets on 27th Feb 2019 and wasted a perfectly good bomb on 26th Feb 2019 (though this is a bad example as it took place during a limited conflict). It appears that the PAF & PN have always realized this fact all to well and have fully utilized their assets against the enemy in the wars they have fought, and that too to the best of their ability. In the end, whatever type/scale of conflict is, Pakistan needs to ensure that it dictates the rules of escalation and dominates the escalation ladder.

Keeping things constant, I do not see how the PAAC would be able to sustain air operations against Indian forces, given its meagre resources. All we can hope for is a miracle from Allah SWT - that's true in all case. The attack helicopter thing needs to be sorted out quickly. But even then so, PA will always require CAS from PAF. PAF is the only force that complements the other two wings of the Pakistani military. Yet while the PN until recently has been continuously thrown under the bus PAF has been forced to depend on 2nd hand, cheap, or free stuff - which are in fact not free at all (some have been paid for by blood). I would say again, carry out austerity within institutions for force modernization. Equip PAF with a quality fighter aircraft that would serve in the lead role for the next 20-25 years and begin complementing AZM as it replaces it in the lead role, provided AZM is successful. It appears that PAC is prioritising improving JF-17's A2G capability. I would stick to that instead of looking into dedicated fighter-bomber like JH-7 as some members have suggested.

So it seems PA is waiting for a miracle. I really feel sad for this mentality (not you my brother just this defeatist attitude so prevalent among Muslims).

PAF should never have been in charge of such a critical aspect of war as CAS. It should have been part of the PA budget. So, PAF does not have to trade a2a for a2g. PA can makes its own decision how it wants to fight IA.

This is the logical and rational way of thinking about it - let PA decide how much money to spend on tanks as opposed to CAS aircraft, or artillery as opposed to CAS aircraft.

Putting CAS in the table of PAF was always the wrong decision.

One has to become a nation not of excuses but who meet the challenge.

CAS has been the single most effective way to fight. It has lead to the decimation of forces since WW2. The last being in Iraq, and even most recently with Turkish drones in Idlib.

Ignoring this element with a sob story from PAF is not the way forward. Here is a cheap way for PA even if it was utterly broke (which is always hard to believe as money seems to be there always for things like uniform change and expensive foreign drones).
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/a-diy-drone-cas-aircraft-for-the-paa-concept.656964/#post-12153413

 

[War Historian]

Agree,baring the initial set up costs i am sure our Mirage Rebuild factory will have some innovative economical solutions. Rebuilding and mastering the EJ200 engines can benefit our Jf17 and AZM projects also on a transfer of technology basis!!!


They will be fine trust me.

Sir, i am also advocating EFT since a long period. Jets are available at a throwaway price in Austria, Spain, Italy and other operators who are moving to next tranche.
Here mostly members said is too much expensive.
Is it more expensive than the 15 sectors of DHA in Lahore?
Why PAF always neglected by defense mangers.since WW ll each and every country win a war only because of strong air force. It covers your Army and Navy and also your deep inside territory industrial and populated areas.
Earlier the PN was facing this situation of neglected. Now when PN is buying new stuff then why air force is not getting new jets instead of old junk mirages and mig 21.
It show how much serious we are to our motherland.
Block 3 is good, but do you members think its enough for our defence against many time larger enemy.
27 feb was our partial victory, in future when they will send their entire fleet of 4++ jets which is almost 500+. Would we able to stop them on 75 F-16 and 150 JFTs.
In realistic view its a big no.

Then why to refuse these potent fighters used EFT , which we can buy on cheap prices.its a favour for us by nature, that we find this chance to buy these beast. This jet will be new nightmare for Indians.
For upgrading we can contact Italians and i m sure after the Covid-19 disaster. they will be in troubled economic condition can not deny any future long term business relation with Pakistan.
For the numbers all the current 6 operators on EFT have tranche 1 on sale. So numbers might goes beyond current F-16 fleet.
If some people said its not multirole or up to task. Then my question to them, Did these EFT are lower in quality infront of old dirt mirages?.... No .
Then why we are denying this favour.
Now if we come to future sanction on Pakistan for sale spare and armament . Four gulf countries will operate this jets in near future
KSA (now operator)
Qatar (on order)
Kuwait (on order)
Oman ( on order)
So in future we will not face any problems on spare, weapons and other issues, because in te of need we can request gulf brother countries for spares and weapons.
For the overhaul and keep the fleet warm, we can hire some people who will loss their jobs in this Covid - 19.
We can also contact RR for assistance on engine maintenance. We can also build overhauling facilities for EFT. Then gulf countries can also use this overhaul facility and we can earn also money from it.so the most of the problems can be solved.
If we come out F-16 saga.

This future maintenance and overhauling facility will give a valuable knowledge about dual engine jets. Which we had never experienced in last few decades. Then this valuable knowledge of engine overhaul and maintenance will make suitable inputs for future AZM program. It will open a new horizon for PAF from defensive to aggressive Air Force.
But we have to brake the chain of mirage rebuild. Because its its is over now.this jet is consuming our pilots lives more than it service to country.

 

[SABRE]

The austerity question is serious. Not to detract too much, but at some point, someone needs to ask about military-run enterprises, housing schemes, salary/pensions, etc. In foreign currency terms it may not matter as much, but the use of local resources can have an impact on Pakistanis (e.g., folks in Karachi were complaining about everything from DHA to how the Rangers/Army took over plots in the city, causing housing prices to go up). Those impacts can translate into macro-economic issues, especially if stuff like rent seeking, resource appropriation, bad or poor incentives, opportunity costs (esp. with generals who don't have solid business acumen spend time running HIT, POF, etc) and so many other cost issues are involved. Thousands of little things can add up.

You have hit the nails on the right spot. These are indeed important points and there is still a lot more to it. Indeed I don't see austerity contributing to improving the currency value but in the long run, the benefits will eventually output good macro-economic results all around, if the government plays its cards right. With regards to the running of HIT, POF, PAC, etc, IMHO, the entire defence production should be centralized into corporate structure led by the civilian authority from the top and staffed by people with business acumen. Establish a corporate headquarter in Karachi (so we can have land, air and sea assets available at a single location to showcase) and embark on a marketing drive. Essentially, just convert the Ministry of Defence Production into such a structure. This, of course, is just wishful thinking, however.

 

[airomerix]

Sir, i am also advocating EFT since a long period. Jets are available at a throwaway price in Austria, Spain, Italy and other operators who are moving to next tranche.
Here mostly members said is too much expensive.

You have no idea the costs associated with sustaining a twin engine, early tranche Typhoons. It is in billions of dollars.

Is it more expensive than the 15 sectors of DHA in Lahore?

Yes. Do the math, please.

Why PAF always neglected by defense mangers.since WW ll each and every country win a war only because of strong air force. It covers your Army and Navy and also your deep inside territory industrial and populated areas.
But now when is buying new stuff then why air force is not getting new jets instead of old junk mirages and mig 21.It show how much serious we are to our motherland.

It is not a Honda civic that you can go and buy off from a showroom. Pakistan's credibility had gone down to zero in the past few decades. The Tranch 1's you're referring to were retired post 2010s. A time when we had people like Zardari, missing foreign minister.

Block 3 is good, but do you members think its enough for our defence against many time larger enemy.
27 feb was our partial victory, in future when they will send their entire fleet of 4++ jets which is almost 500+. Would we able to stop them on 75 F-16 and 150 JFTs.
In realistic view its a big no.

Allah khair keray ga. Dont lose hope.

Then why to refuse these potent fighters used EFT , which we can buy on cheap prices.its a favour for us by nature, that we find this chance to buy these beast. This jet will be new nightmare for Indians.


For upgrading we can contact Italians and i m sure after the Covid-19 disaster. they will be in troubled economic condition can not deny any future long term business relation with Pakistan.
For the numbers all the current 6 operators on EFT have tranche 1 on sale. So numbers might goes beyond current F-16 fleet.

What makes you think even older typhoons are cheap? Why do you keep making this assumption? Also, earlier models of Typhoons cannot be upgraded much. Their computer isnt powerful enough to handle everything that a Tranche 3 typhoon can do. One of the primary reasons they are being retired.

Now if we come to future sanction on Pakistan for sale spare and armament . Four gulf countries will operate this jets in near future

KSA (now operator)[
Qatar (on order)
Kuwait (on order)
Oman ( on order)
So in future we will not face any problems on spare, weapons and other issues, because in te of need we can request gulf brother countries for spares and weapons.

These countries cannot lend us a screw of a machine gun without manufacturer knowing. Who are you kidding?

For the overhaul and keep the fleet warm, we can hire some people who will loss their jobs in this Covid - 19.
We can also contact RR for assistance on engine maintenance. We can also build overhauling facilities for EFT. Then gulf countries can also use this overhaul facility and we can earn also money from it.so the most of the problems can be solved.
If we come out F-16 saga.

This future maintenance and overhauling facility will give a valuable knowledge about dual engine jets. Which we had never experienced in last few decades. Then this valuable knowledge of engine overhaul and maintenance will make suitable inputs for future AZM program. It will open a new horizon for PAF from defensive to aggressive Air Force.
But we have to brake the chain of mirage rebuild. Because its its is over now.this jet is consuming our pilots lives more than it service to country.

Sincier thoughts. But impractical.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[Maxpane]

You have no idea the costs associated with sustaining a twin engine, early tranche Typhoons. It is in billions of dollars.



Yes. Do the math, please.



It is not a Honda civic that you can go and buy off from a showroom. Pakistan's credibility had gone down to zero in the past few decades. The Tranch 1's you're referring to were retired post 2010s. A time when we had people like Zardari, missing foreign minister.



Allah khair keray ga. Dont lose hope.




What makes you think even older typhoons are cheap? Why do you keep making this assumption? Also, earlier models of Typhoons cannot be upgraded much. Their computer isnt powerful enough to handle everything that a Tranche 3 typhoon can do. One of the primary reasons they are being retired.



These countries cannot lend us a screw of a machine gun without manufacturer knowing. Who are you kidding?



Sincier thoughts. But impractical.

[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
sir what about j 10 c?

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

[/QUOTE]
sir what about j 10 c?[/QUOTE]
a dead deal as it offers nothing other than jf17 block 3

 

[Basel]

Interesting post. I am thinking that a peer-on-peer war between India and Pakistan will start of with skirmishes, and then lead to a sudden expansion of aggressive assaults.

The one key glaring weakness for Pak would be close air support. While India has attack helicopters and a large number of ground attack aircraft, PAF does not have the numbers to give out valuable strike and air superiority assets to close air support.

Compounding this problem is that the Mirages aren't suitable for close air support at all, and Pak would largely have to rely on a handful of tired and dilapidated AH-1s.

This means that PAF will largely be fighting a separate air war while PA's largely infantry dominated forces duke it out against a much larger and better equiped force.

PAF will deploy K-8s and possibly super mashaks in light CAS but one must consider that UCAVs will also play key role in CAS and we can built them in-house too, in extreme emergency PAF can bring back retired aircrafts with some life like A-5s, F-7s or F-6 for CAS role.

Also PA and PAF can arm their helicopters which will be force multipliers.

 

[Armchair]

It is not possible to do CAS with Mushaks or even K-8s. The latter would be slightly useful. I really encourage everyone to read up on CAS and how it changed war is we know it. How it was critical in every major war particularly since Gulf War 1. Without this knowledge and understanding, Pakistan is not prepared for 21st century warfare.

 

[Maxpane]

sir what about j 10 c?[/QUOTE]
a dead deal as it offers nothing other than jf17 block 3[/QUOTE]
i dnt think so sir. i think its done deal as @Tipu7 sir gave some indication