" "Pacifists" No More?" Scuffles as Japan security bill approved by committee

[jhungary]

There is nobody who understands the Japanese mindset more than we do. Once they grow more teeth and being more confident, they are going to get rid of the US military on their soil. You are talking about the Samurai spirit here. LOL So whether this is a win for the US remain to be seen in the future. I can accept that in the short term, the US wins as Japan will take more responsibility for their own defense which they have to spend more money on military to keep up with China Rise and less on social welfare for the Japanese people and the US can reduce their expenditure on protecting JP. So that is beneficial to the US taxpayers. But long term wise, like I said, the US influence will be weaken in Japan and they will lose the leash. I'm afraid that version of Japan is not unfavorable to us at all. Everyone knows the Japanese wouldn't dare attack China again as that will be a dead sentence. So for us, it is a win-win situation. Pacifist Japan = More opportunity for us. Militarist Japan = Weaken the US influence in Japan. Win-Win.

I don't know who are "we" you refer to, is it you and me "we", or "we" the Chinese, or "we" the PDF Brigade? Anyway, from what you said, I can safely say you know nothing of the geopolitics situation in Asia. Basically your point have 2 major flaws.

1.) You assume a Militaristic Japan will throw the US out of the Region.

Well, this is actually not up to Japan to decide, the Japanese I know is not suicidal, the only way Japan can throw the US out is that Japan can take a full assault from their Enemy, namely China and Russia. Which is, unless you have some loose in your mind, it won't happen.

Japan can militarise to a point where they can shred the US support, by building their own tech, ship and aircraft, but numerically, technologically and experience wise, they are under par with the US, Japan need US to survive, not the other way around. And in the end, the main game is and always is China vs the US in Asia. Not China vs Japan.

The situation of a Militaristic Japan is the same as a Militaristic Republic of Korea, they are also armed to their teeth, but still require US assistance.

2.) You assumed Japan will simply rolled over with any issue with China

What you said was right, to a point, Japan will not attack China, that's for sure, but what does it means exactly? Even US won't attack China, does that mean Chinese Pacifist the US? The question should not be focus on whether or not Japan will attack China again ala 1937, but rather will Japan stand against overseas Chinese interest either by competing or by sabotage Chinese reputation in international issue? The answer is they will, definitely. Because while what you said is true, Japan will never attack China, the reverse is also true, which is Chinese will not attack Japan, unless Chinese have some sort of suicidal tendencies.

So, in the end, what you said cannot be further off, and if this is what you think it will happen, why stop there? you should dream on a Chinese-Japan Alliance and kick US out of Asia once and for all.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

It was called an alliance. It is not about relying on foreign force for our resistance. But fate and co-existent self-interest of all parties to defeat the Axis from world domination. It is the same reason the UK and SU allied with one another, supported one another through weapon assistance, that allowed both to fight the Nazi Germany admirably. It is this same concept that we expected to play our role to keep Japan preoccupied. As we were a weaker power from a technological, industrial standpoint in those era, our best contribution was keeping a superior military technology foe from gaining ground in Asia. Had Japan gaining ground in China, they would support the Nazi Germany and that could be ugly for SU and Europe. So in short, SU would eventually raining down on Japan because it would prevent Japan from gaining dominance in Far East and Central Asia, which were of concern for the SU. Defeating Japan is in SU's national interest and so were it for us.

What??? Where was your savior in 1937 when you were invaded? How about 1938, 1939, and 1940? I suppose you think they were fighting the Germans.

China in 1937: "Hey Russia save us from Japan"
Russia in 1937: "um yeah...working on it"
China in 1938: "Hey Russia save us from Japan"
Russia in 1938: "um yeah...working on it"
China in 1939: "Hey Russia save us from Japan"
Russia in 1939: "um yeah...working on it"
China in 1940: "Hey Russia save us from Japan"
Russia in 1940: "um yeah...working on it"
China in 1941: "Hey Russia save us from Japan"
Russia in 1941: "um busy signing paperwork Soviet–Japanese Neutrality Pact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia "
China: "???"
Russia [3 months later] "oops busy with Nazis Operation Barbarossa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia "
China in 1941: "ok uh..well.we'll hold out until you defeat them oh dependable ally!!!"
Russia in 1941: "um yeah...working on it"

China in 2015: "we never needed US help since the Russians were going to help us"
US in 2015: "Dream on...Dream on..Dream on....Dream until your dreams come true"

 

[xunzi]

I don't know who are "we" you refer to, is it you and me "we", or "we" the Chinese, or "we" the PDF Brigade? Anyway, from what you said, I can safely say you know nothing of the geopolitics situation in Asia. Basically your point have 2 major flaws.

1.) You assume a Militaristic Japan will throw the US out of the Region.

Well, this is actually not up to Japan to decide, the Japanese I know is not suicidal, the only way Japan can throw the US out is that Japan can take a full assault from their Enemy, namely China and Russia. Which is, unless you have some loose in your mind, it won't happen.

Japan can militarise to a point where they can shred the US support, by building their own tech, ship and aircraft, but numerically, technologically and experience wise, they are under par with the US, Japan need US to survive, not the other way around. And in the end, the main game is and always is China vs the US in Asia. Not China vs Japan.

The situation of a Militaristic Japan is the same as a Militaristic Republic of Korea, they are also armed to their teeth, but still require US assistance.

2.) You assumed Japan will simply rolled over with any issue with China

What you said was right, to a point, Japan will not attack China, that's for sure, but what does it means exactly? Even US won't attack China, does that mean Chinese Pacifist the US? The question should not be focus on whether or not Japan will attack China again ala 1937, but rather will Japan stand against overseas Chinese interest either by competing or by sabotage Chinese reputation in international issue? The answer is they will, definitely. Because while what you said is true, Japan will never attack China, the reverse is also true, which is Chinese will not attack Japan, unless Chinese have some sort of suicidal tendencies.

So, in the end, what you said cannot be further off, and if this is what you think it will happen, why stop there? you should dream on a Chinese-Japan Alliance and kick US out of Asia once and for all.

LOL. My friend,

1. That is not an assumption, it is an upcoming fact. The Japanese will not show their displeasure from the outside. You need to observe them from the inside to understand what they want for their country. You also make the wrong assumption that getting rid of the US will force Japan to face Sino-Russia alliance alone. I cannot say why this is a wrong assumption. But it is in the interest of Japan to make friend with their immediate neighbors (South Korea, China, Russia), instead of enemy even with the support of the US.

2. Your general idea of Western supremacy and domination of the Asia will lead to an erupting end in the future. No civilization will control and have complete control over other civilization forever. This is true historically. For now, the Japanese will do whatever they can to resist our rise because it is their interest to remain relevant in the eyes of global world power. However they will come to grasp the reality and accept their fate as an Asian nation and not a Western puppet.

What??? Where was your savior in 1937 when you were invaded? How about 1938, 1939, and 1940? I suppose you think they were fighting the Germans.

The SU had their own motivation to split Europe with Nazi, so that's understandable. Every power must put their country interest on top of others. I thought you know this too well, my friend? LOL So for us, we don't expect any assistance to us out of pity and sympathy. We only utilized whatever strength we got at the time to keep SU involved and they obviously respond later on. They did aid us through weapons assistance, especially after the Nazi betrayed us. Honestly, the fate between Nazi and Soviet to fight one another were seal. The Nazi cannot stand Communist Russia. In fact, communist is Hitlers' biggest fear.

 

[jhungary]

LOL. My friend,

1. That is not an assumption, it is an upcoming fact. The Japanese will not show their displeasure from the outside. You need to observe them from the inside to understand what they want for their country. You also make the wrong assumption that getting rid of the US will force Japan to face Sino-Russia alliance alone. I cannot say why this is a wrong assumption. But it is in the interest of Japan to make friend with their immediate neighbors (South Korea, China, Russia), instead of enemy even with the support of the US.

2. Your general idea of Western supremacy and domination of the Asia will lead to an erupting end in the future. No civilization will control and have complete control over other civilization forever. This is true historically. For now, the Japanese will do whatever they can to resist our rise because it is their interest to remain relevant in the eyes of global world power. However they will come to grasp the reality and accept their fate as an Asian nation and not a Western puppet.

lol, I really laugh out loud whilst reading your post.........

1.) You do know why Japan militarise their country right? China and Russia, and then now you tell me that it is in the interest of Japan to make friend with Russia, China and South Korea? If Japan were to make friend with China, Russia and South Korea, then why do they need to militarise their country to begin with??

While you at it, maybe US should make friend with Iran, and I have a better chance winning American Idol lol.

2.) The problem is not US wanted nor particular needed to dominate Asia, nor wanting all those allies and station troop there, do you think maintaining overseas bases and asset is cheap? Do you think it cost US nothing to station troop in South Korea and Japan?

You assume it was the US who actively stir up trouble in Asia and undermine Chinese in the Region, but the truth is quite the opposite, those country is drawing themselves into the US camp not because they were forced by the US to do so, but rather they were forced by an outside force, care to think which is driving them away to the US??

You want US gone in Asia? It's quite simple. The day China don't threaten their own neighbour and demanding anything from their neighbour, you will see there are no reason for US to stay in Asia and then they will go. The militaristic of Japanese defence is a direct result of a Militarised China. If you really want US gone from japan and South Korea, you need to let South Korea and Japan knows the Chinese are no threat to them. Not by threaten them and force them to kick the American out.

Hence you cannot even see the long or short term of it, again, what you said is simply your own wishful thinking.

 

[Viet]

the step is overdue, considering chinese aggressions in East and South East Asia. Japan must increase the size of military budget and army personnel. at least 2 x. and developing nuclear weapons for deterrence.

 

[Aepsilons]

By the way @Nihonjin1051 @yoshi.oda , if you are going to increase your Japanese navy too, please make more of this particular trump card,

We're making more of this:

I'll tell you what Japan would eventually do. They would bulld a massive bomber fleet and flatten anything in their way.

Pretty much.

 

[cnleio]

The ISIS from Middle-East is far away from the Japan, but China / Russia / S.Korea close to Japan coastlines ... anyways be careful in future days. Japan security bill approved, it means Japan can war with others & others war with Japan ... the 'Peaceful' time gone ~ interest conflicts will coming ...

 

[TheTruth]

People here are overtly naïve and only think of the short term effect. But on the other hand, they forgot about the long term effect and the basis of the problem.

The question in this so called "liberation of Japanese constitution" is based on the Chinese growth in the Region. Problem is not Japanese being suddenly militaristic and decided to drop the pacifist stance and go into War mode. This is this perceived threat from China (At least from Japanese point of view)

This have no relation to any geopolitical entity in the region as the main game in Asia is an always is China vs the US. The only gain on either side of the equation is that with Japan growth back their military teeth, it favour US more as all their contribution is going to directly help the US on the region.

There will not be any changes in the geopolitical situation in South or South East Asia, as Japan is til now, a non-player, it was the US who hold the cards to their allies, not Japan.

South Korea Hate Japan, but they will not simply swing into Chinese Camp because they also hated the Chinese and North Korean and it was the US 2nd Infantry division who command the ROK force in DMZ, not the Chinese.

The question one should ask is, do people in Asia fear the Japanese more or the Chinese?? The answer, I think is quite simple and straight forward.

Clueless as usual. Most Asians like China, go see what Pew says. 61% of South Koreans are positive on China and even more want closer ties.

Japan and Abe have always wanted to be a "normal" country. They're just using China as an excuse. Of course China has nothing to fear from a remilitarized Japan, as Japan can't even dream of attacking China outright.

 

[70U63]

We can understand Japan militarise themselve to prevent other try to do something to them (vice versa). However, if you are Japanese, will you want troop from other country to permanently stationed in your own country? Especially for Asian, this is shame. In short term strategic, of course both parties get what they want. But in longer term, of course Japanese want to be in charge of their own country (directly).

1.) You do know why Japan militarise their country right? China and Russia, and then now you tell me that it is in the interest of Japan to make friend with Russia, China and South Korea? If Japan were to make friend with China, Russia and South Korea, then why do they need to militarise their country to begin with??

 

[Huan]

So you were reliant on an outside "savior" achieving victory against another foe? That's a pretty scary gamble for your future. So if Russia lost or decided not to help you..then what?

I'll tell you what Japan would eventually do. They would bulld a massive bomber fleet and flatten anything in their way.

You know, China in this day and age could also build a massive bomber fleet and flatten anything in their way.

 

[Mirza Jatt]

Clueless as usual. Most Asians like China, go see what Pew says. 61% of South Koreans are positive on China and even more want closer ties.

Japan and Abe have always wanted to be a "normal" country. They're just using China as an excuse. Of course China has nothing to fear from a remilitarized Japan, as Japan can't even dream of attacking China outright.

for the bolded part:

FYI, approx 30% of Asian population is Indian

 

[jhungary]

Clueless as usual. Most Asians like China, go see what Pew says. 61% of South Koreans are positive on China and even more want closer ties.

Japan and Abe have always wanted to be a "normal" country. They're just using China as an excuse. Of course China has nothing to fear from a remilitarized Japan, as Japan can't even dream of attacking China outright.

lol clueless??

What you are saying here is a completely 180 you asked before, which is what I said is why Austria lose to the Ottoman.

Positive to China does not mean they are gonna bow under China. I don't know are you really this dim or you are trying to spin the poll to justified what you said. Do you know US held 80%+ favourable view to Filipino view before being kicked out of Philippine? It was a decision from the government, not a decision from the citizens.

Not to mention liking China does not mean they don't see them as a threat. lol. funny you put two unrelated thing together and claim you know what you are talking about...

And if China have nothing to fear about Japan expanding their military might, then why bitch about it this often? Aren't you a little hypocritical?

We can understand Japan militarise themselve to prevent other try to do something to them (vice versa). However, if you are Japanese, will you want troop from other country to permanently stationed in your own country? Especially for Asian, this is shame. In short term strategic, of course both parties get what they want. But in longer term, of course Japanese want to be in charge of their own country (directly).

It's not about do they want. But about what they can do about that.

At this moment, even with japan fully militarise, they cannot effectively defend a full blown assault from China and/or Russia had there been one. Being militaristically possible to defend their own land means the have to have number, experience and technology all come into one, and right now, Japan only had technology edge, which China is not at all far behind.

Think about 10 years down the road, if China launch a full assault to Japan, can Japanese fend off an assault with full PLAN and PLA might on their own? Without the US 7th Fleet? There are limit as to how one country develop their own military force. Each country can only afford a certain amount of troop on ground, and geographically, China is about 30 times as big as Japan, and even if we give a very generous invasion ratio of 5:1 (5 Chinese soldier to 1 Japanese Soldier), Japanese Armed Force have to be 5 times as large as now to effectively fend off a PLA assault, and the question is, is it physically possible for Japan expand their forces 5 times? No.

Japan can only get rid of the US if China present no threat to them, and judging from the country and PDF Chinese Brigade, it is highly unlikely..........

 

[TheTruth]

lol clueless??

What you are saying here is a completely 180 you asked before, which is what I said is why Austria lose to the Ottoman.

Positive to China does not mean they are gonna bow under China. I don't know are you really this dim or you are trying to spin the poll to justified what you said. Do you know US held 80%+ favourable view to Filipino view before being kicked out of Philippine? It was a decision from the government, not a decision from the citizens.

Not to mention liking China does not mean they don't see them as a threat. lol. funny you put two unrelated thing together and claim you know what you are talking about...

And if China have nothing to fear about Japan expanding their military might, then why bitch about it this often? Aren't you a little hypocritical?

Who said anything about "gonna bow under China"? Did your 5+ degrees in politics, economics, business, international affairs and military strategy in a prestigious Western university not teach you to write at a university level, by the way?

I have never complained about Japan "expanding their military might," only laughing at their excuses and deception as well as their subservience to an occupying power. In my opinion a militarized Japan will eventually all out of the US orbit while not being a credible threat to China.

You also said Austria won, not lost...get your BS together.

Japan can only get rid of the US if China present no threat to them, and judging from the country and PDF Chinese Brigade, it is highly unlikely..........

Judging from the PDF US brigade, it's highly unlikely that you'll ever pull your heads out of your asses either. LOL the idea of China doing a full assault on Japanese home islands... incredible.

 

[prima99]

Think about 10 years down the road, if China launch a full assault to Japan, can Japanese fend off an assault with full PLAN and PLA might on their own? Without the US 7th Fleet? There are limit as to how one country develop their own military force. Each country can only afford a certain amount of troop on ground, and geographically, China is about 30 times as big as Japan, and even if we give a very generous invasion ratio of 5:1 (5 Chinese soldier to 1 Japanese Soldier), Japanese Armed Force have to be 5 times as large as now to effectively fend off a PLA assault, and the question is, is it physically possible for Japan expand their forces 5 times? No.

bullshit. if so then why the WW II Japan can expand it's arses from East Asia to South East Asia? it only took them 2 weeks to drive the dutch back to their Queen's asses. this isn't 1945 anymore and they're much more advanced than before.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

You know, China in this day and age could also build a massive bomber fleet and flatten anything in their way.

That's exactly why China's neighbors are all edgy.