p 17 & type 052c comparison

[+4vsgorillas-Apebane]

Whats with Indians and bringing in FUTURE weapons and ships?
Future ships and weapons that are delayed and delayed and over blown in costs only to be cancelled for FUTURE ships and weapons project that are even more ambitious?

It seems Indians believe that their future is guaranteed to be glorious, never mind that the present (foundation and path to the FUTURE) is a total mess.

 

[Gessler]

@All members except Apebane

Does that ape above think I'm gonna reply to his brain-less posts?

Does he even know that the current India's best FFG is better than China's best FFG?

What's the point in being "40 years ahead" of India if you can't even make a 4000-ton frigate better than us?
I don't see what apes like him are doing in forums discussing military stuff.

 

[chauism]

I can't believe how ignorant Chinese members are. They are heavily weighed down by their
CCP-fed nonsense and a false sense of pride, even when it's clear countries like India are making much
better warships than China right now.

Let's have a very simple and very brief comparison of armament of P-15A and 052C -

THE INDIAN DDG CARRIES -

16 CRUISE MISSILES,
96 SURFACE-TO-AIR MISSILES,
180 ANTI-SUBMARINE ROCKETS, (in 2 x RBU-6000 MRLs, with 90+ rockets each)
4 DIRECTED 30MM GUNS,
1 MULTIPURPOSE 100MM GUN, AND UPTO
6 TORPEDO LAUNCHERS.

THE CHINESE DDG CARRIES -

8 CRUISE MISSILES,
48 SURFACE-TO-AIR MISSILES,
2 AUTOMATIC 30MM GUNS,
1 MULTIPURPOSE 100MM GUN, AND UPTO
6 TORPEDO LAUNCHERS.

052C does not even have any anti-sub rocket launchers, it can carry only 1 chopper while P-15A carries 2.
and this Chinese members are in the delusion that 052C is "superior" to P-15A. What BS.

Since when does Delhi class destroyer carry 96 sam? By any account it has 24x2 shtil + 32 barak that is 80 in total. Also the sam type is totally different as 052c's HHQ9 is a long range area defense SAM where as the SAM onboard Delhi class is point defence short and median range missiles. Here I am not saying which one is better because they serve different role in its respective navy fleet. However if you insist compare those two ships with the number you have above, please keep in mind that UK's newest Type 45 Daring class DDG also only carries 48 SAM missiles, and no anti-sub rockets, and worst of all it doesn't carry any anti ship or land attack missiles although it is provisioned to do so. So is Dehli class DDG a better destroyer than Daring also？

 

[Gessler]

Since when does Delhi class destroyer carry 96 sam? By any account it has 24x2 shtil + 32 barak that is 80 in total. Also the sam type is totally different as 052c's HHQ9 is a long range area defense SAM where as the SAM onboard Delhi class is point defence short and median range missiles. Here I am not saying which one is better because they serve different role in its respective navy fleet. However if you insist compare those two ships with the number you have above, please keep in mind that UK's newest Type 45 Daring class DDG also only carries 48 SAM missiles, and no anti-sub rockets, and worst of all it doesn't carry any anti ship or land attack missiles although it is provisioned to do so. So is Dehli class DDG a better destroyer than Daring also？

Atleast read your material carefully!

Delhi-class is the Project-15.

Project-15A (P-15A) is the Kolkata-class.

Kolkata class destroyer | Wikipedia.org

The figures of missiles/rockets I gave above are 100% correct.

 

[chauism]

Atleast read your material carefully!

Delhi-class is the Project-15.

Project-15A (P-15A) is the Kolkata-class.

Kolkata class destroyer | Wikipedia.org

The figures of missiles/rockets I gave above are 100% correct.

Okay so it has one more set of Barak , but it still does change my other statements. Besides what are you doing comparing a class of stroyer that haven't been commissioned yet to a class of stroyer that has been inservice for years.

 

[Gessler]

The P-15A Kolkata-class is an all-new Stealth DDG currently nearing completion, gearing towards
commissioning in early 2013.









If you ask me if P-15A is superior to Type-45 Daring, I'd say yes. I'll post a detailed comparison chart
later.

 

[danger007]

India weapons just a joke

almost all Imported from foreigner countries

Just like goophone... thankz for your post sir, you increased one post.

 

[Gessler]

Okay so it has one more set of Barak , but it still does change my other statements. Besides what are you doing comparing a class of stroyer that haven't been commissioned yet to a class of stroyer that has been inservice for years.

My friend, The Delhi-class and Kolkata-class are...well, a class apart. P-15A carries AESA radars, long-range SAMs, Supersonic missiles, and a host of other advanced sensors and weapons including Close-In SAM systems.

P-15A will also be fitted out with Nirbhay LACMs with a range of 1000km and a lessend payload, alterated fuel range of upto 2100-2200km. Its similar to Tomahawk-TLAM. Kolkata is undoubtedly one of the best DDGs ever built.

As of the "completed yet", "in service for years" thing, as I have stated earlier a dozen times, is irrelevent to the capability of the particular warship-class. On the other hand, yes, I do agree Indian shipbuilding needs to employ new infrastructure and speed up construction.

 

[RISING SUN]

Okay so it has one more set of Barak , but it still does change my other statements. Besides what are you doing comparing a class of stroyer that haven't been commissioned yet to a class of stroyer that has been inservice for years.

1st ship of Kolkata class is scheduled to be commissioned very this month September 2012. If you want we can compare Delhi class with 052C also. Give me some time.

 

[Gessler]

1st ship of Kolkata class is scheduled to be commissioned very this month September 2012. If you want we can compare Delhi class with 052C also. Give me some time.

The commissioning of first P-15A is now scheduled in early 2013.

About the Delhi-class, I don't think it's fair to compare with 052C which is a stealth DDG while the
former isn't.

P-15 Delhi-class compares against earlier Type-052B and Type-051B I think.

 

[tanlixiang28776]

So? P15A carries 64 SAMs while 052C carries 48. Having a longer ranged SAM is not technically advantageous as I have explain above in my previous posts. It's better off to have a larger number of shorter-ranged SAMs with more G-stress tolerence, more maneuverability and more kill probability, like Barak-VIII.

It seems HHQ-9 can intercept ballistic missiles in terminal stage but I don't see how that helps (I mean, who would be raining ballistic missiles on a 150-metre long warship, that too a moving target??). But the Barak-VIII can also do that,,,in addition, the Barak has the capability to interceot Supersonic cruise/terminal stage cruise missiles more effieciently that any other SAM system devised so far.

YJ-62s, C-802/803s, and other ASCMs of PLAN are gonna have a tough time getting past this system.

Only the YJ-62 surpasses the range of BrahMos among ASCMs here. The 1800km missile is not anti-ship, that's a land-attack cruise missile HN-2. P15A will be fitted with Nirbhay LACM with a full payload/range of 1000km, and a lessened payload/fuel alterated range of upto 2,100km. (Not counting any advanced version).

But again, speed, accuracy, which go directly relevent to the reaction time you comfort the enemy with, are more important than mere range. And besides, let me reveal to you that the range of BrahMos Block-I ASCM was limited not due to MTCR but due to the OTHT capabilities available with IN, which did not permit the effective use of a long-range cruise missile,,,otherwise PJ-10 is well capable of upto 700km with assisted fuels and refined RAMJETs, or 550km as it is right now. As soon as IN procures the required capabilities, the range of PJ-10 will be considerably increased.

If you have any doubts regarding this, you may enquire here - TRISHUL
That site is owned by Prasun K. Sengupta who has a lot of insider info about military systems. Post a comment
in any thread and he'll reply soon with an answer.

True. But however P15A has 4 x 30mm cannons while 052C has only 2.

That ain't the only advantage. P15A can carry 2 x choppers while 052C can carry only 1. P15A also has advantage in the radar and electronic warfare system (MF-STAR AESA, STAR, HUMSA, LW-08, Deseaver Mk.III) and also P15A is fundamentally a more stealthy design than 052C - lessened protrusions, low-profile masts, angled-surface radar casings, etc.

Oh yeah? Well just read my post again.

You have researched nuts. You just chose to read selectively that's all.

Irrelevent. We are talking about the capability of each ship and not when what is completed and commissioned. However, I agree that the pace of Indian shipbuilding needs to improve.

@applesauce

read my reply to tanlixiang28776

Having far longer ranged sams is not a advantage? BMD capabilities are useless? Just because India lacks these things does not mean its useless. Both the US and Europeans View BMD and long range missiles as essential in a Fleet defense destroyer with their standard and aster missiles. BMD missiles require the highest reaction times in the world to deal with mach high hyper sonic aka mach 10 plus missiles. Dealing with missiles that can only go below mach 2 in terminal phase seems rather trivial compared to that

If you wanted to compare short range missiles the type 52D can quad pack them in its 64 VLUS so thats 256 short range missiles to your 64. Yeah you're not going to win a numbers war.

As for who would launch anti ship ballistic missiles the DF 21D is operational according to both Chinese, and US officials. So have fun with those pounding your ships with no BMD. Because BMD is completely useless apparently.

We only need on missile that surpasses the Brahmos here. Range wise the YJ 62 beats the Brahmos easily and as for the supersonic, or subsonic discussion the YJ 12 is a 400 km range supersonic missile that is operated by the chinese since 1999. Supersonic missiles are not exactly out of China's realm. The 2000 km range DH 10 is with full load and the 1000km range is the full load of the nirbhay. Compare apples to apples here. The thing is the P15B is going to incorporate these and they are nowhere to be seen as of this moment.

For Brahmos please keep the discussion on current systems. You do not see me bringing in some un deployed or unheard of Chinese missile into the argument. Its jarring to have to constantly compare things that do not exist to things that have been in service for years.

I'll admit that the P15A has a more helicopters but the AESA system located on four sides of the bridge of the type 52C are far larger and more cpable than the small ones on the structure mounted on the P 15A.

The 54 frigate used to have 4 630s as well and in the 54A they were replaced by two type 730s. The type 730 is a completely autonomous system with is own FCR while the AK 630s are linked single radar.

I have researched plenty and you have ignored some of the most important factors of a modern destroyer, namely BMD. You also like to compare non operational Indian projects to Chinese that that are a decade old. Yeah if I used those kind of arguments China would be more advanced than Aliens.\

Shipbuilding capability is one of the most relevant things when discussing a navy. The type 52C was operational in 2003 and the P 15A yet to be operational. The type 52D has been launched while the P15A has yet to be launched. We are discussing a ship you do not even have operational yet. Thats pretty generous already

This comparison is irrelevent as I have already stated in Page 1. you are a fool to repeatedly compare
a frigate with a destroyer with the hope that your ship stands in good light compared to Indian ship.

I too would like to match off P-15A v/s Type-054A and bash the latter. But I'm more sensible than you
so I won't do it. If you wanna compare P-17, compare it with Type-054A, if you want to compare the
Type-052C, compare it with P-15A. Simple

This is the comparison the OP put out there. I merely complied with the topic.

I'm not serious about the size of the radar really. I meant it as a joke. But really professional members
out there like Tamhlixiang and Applesauce lol took it seriously.

Do not hide behind jokes. I'm fairly certain that because since the P 15A has its radar in a structure above the bridge that you thought the type 52C did as well.

I don't think It will wight around 6800-7000. It will be in the range of 7000 to 8000 tons. You can mark my words. Indian navy loves to surprise everyone. Remember the Shivalik class fissaco,when every one was claiming it to be 4000-5000 ton in Wikipedia & everywhere,it is well over 6000 ton. No one seems to take it under consideration that its predecessor Delhi class was only 6,900 tonnes,and it is clearly stated that it will cross Delhi class. Total funny.
For radar thing mate I really don't know much. so sorry.
For range part I was reading in different forums. It is stated that India & Israel are working on 3 SAM projects & range is around 70 to 150. There is only one confusion that which one is Barak 8 actually. although Wikipedia states 70 KM.

In last I want to say only one thing don't ever underestimate Indian naval arm. It is pretty good at deceiving enemy.

Please just work with current facts. I really hate arguing hypotheticals. We can argue ifs to the end of time. And what does the weight of the ship matter when we're discussing weapon systems?

As for the SAM project the Barak 8 ship based system is 70 km. The air force ground based ones are 150 km. So basically yeah nothing to do with your ships.

I'm not underestimating anyone. I do research and present facts based on current facts.

 

[tanlixiang28776]

1- Same weight category as Kolkata class.
2- The radar mounted on the Type 052C has been called both the Type 346 and the Type 348. It is not certain which designation belongs to the indigenous Chinese system described in this article, and which was given to a system imported to China from the Kvant Design Bureau of Ukraine. The Kvant radar operated in the C band and had a range of only 150-160 km.
International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > Chinese Notes from AeroIndia and IDEX
Maxmimum range: 450 km
Maxmimum resolution: 0.5 meters
Primary band of operation: S band
Integrated circuitry: GaAs MMIC
EL/M-2248 MF-STAR Multi-mission radar
Performance
Low level missile >25 Km
high flying fighter aircraft >250
S band solid state
It comes with BARAK NG & BARAK 8 which is called mini AEGIS in western standards.
I dont understand the term VLUS. Will you explain it with links?

1. Why exactly do you care about weight? I only put it their for a basic idea how large they are. We're talking about weapon systems here.

As for the radar i would not recommend using a Wikipedia article with no citations.

Type 346

There is specific belief that some of the technology may be derived from the Ukrainian ISKRA company’s IL-220U that employs the 1L259M 3D monopulse emitter used in the land mobile ZOO PARK-2 weapon location system, but so far this has been refuted by the Ukrainians.

So yeah the 346 has no association to the Ukrainian radar as stated by Ukrainians.

The 450 km range exceeds the 250 km max range of the P 15A by quite a bit. As for mini Aegis its ironic that the term is usually associated with missile defence systems capable of BMD something the P 15A lacks completely and is the focus of the type 52C.

Atleast this great researcher has to know that HQ-16 is surface-to-air and not air-to-surface.

When you completely take a ships CIWS as the ships APARs its a joke but when i make a mistake typing a huge page out you're going to call me out on it? Yeah i made a mistake and you outright lie about things like the P 15B being launched a few months ago. I think that's pretty fair.

 

[tanlixiang28776]

Never tested & yes article does states that it has limited BMD capability.
You didn't provide the link for 052C employing DH10 missile. So don't state that until you provide a link.
& for the record P15A, as you said, will employ Nirbhay cruise missile which is around 1500 to 1900KM with Bramhos hypersonic cruise missile in both mode Anti ship as well as land attack capability.
For CIWS PART
The maximum rate of fire is 5800 rd/m, and the effective range is up to 3 km for Chinese CIWS.
While indian one can engage aerial and surface targets at 4 km and 5 km respectively.It has a higher firing rate than both the Goalkeeper and Phalanx (Block 1 and older) CIWS systems. 5,000 rounds per minute,83 round/s.
Chinese CIWS has a lacking point which restricts its rate of fire & that is, it is recommended not to fire longer than a single minute at a rate of 4,200 rounds per minute, after which the generated heat would begin melting the rifles of the barrel, shortening its useful life. Oopes.
Where did you at all. Neither you provided link which I asked for. Now you again start claiming.

A missile that has been in service since 1997 with news channels showing it intercepting BM is not tested. My My what standards you have. As for limited capability it means it has terminal phase interception unlike the midcourse ones China is currently testing.

The Nirbhay is stated to be 1000 km full load. Lets leave it at that.

For CIWS Chinese use a missile and gun approach with new ships like the 52D equipped with a type 730 and a 21 round hq 10 - 15 km CIWS missile launcher.

 

[tanlixiang28776]

I can't believe how ignorant Chinese members are. They are heavily weighed down by their
CCP-fed nonsense and a false sense of pride, even when it's clear countries like India are making much
better warships than China right now.

Let's have a very simple and very brief comparison of armament of P-15A and 052C -

THE INDIAN DDG CARRIES -

16 CRUISE MISSILES,
96 SURFACE-TO-AIR MISSILES,
180 ANTI-SUBMARINE ROCKETS, (in 2 x RBU-6000 MRLs, with 90+ rockets each)
4 DIRECTED 30MM GUNS,
1 MULTIPURPOSE 100MM GUN, AND UPTO
6 TORPEDO LAUNCHERS.

THE CHINESE DDG CARRIES -

8 CRUISE MISSILES,
48 SURFACE-TO-AIR MISSILES,
2 AUTOMATIC 30MM GUNS,
1 MULTIPURPOSE 100MM GUN, AND UPTO
6 TORPEDO LAUNCHERS.

052C does not even have any anti-sub rocket launchers, it can carry only 1 chopper while P-15A carries 2.
and this Chinese members are in the delusion that 052C is "superior" to P-15A. What BS.

Indians have a laughable mindset that completely ignores actual facts and like to pull in things that are from the future to compare with others past. This kind of comparison is laughable at best and actually quite pathetic when you think about it.

India has yet to actually launch a single P 15A when China has 6 type 52C with the first launched since 2003. The type 52D has also been launched

Lets not simplify armament and actually compare with full facts. Now what and idea that is.

Indian DDG P15A not launched

16 brahmos 300 km antiship missiles
64 barak 8 70 km mid range missiles
32 barak 1 12 km missiles
4 30 mm guns
1 100 mm guns

Chinese type 52C 6 complete

8 yj 62 400 km antiship missiles
48 200 km range longe range missiles
2 30 mm guns
1 100 mm gun

Chinese type 52D 1 complete 2 building

64 Universal VLS units that can hold any mixture of the following missiles

HQ 9- 200 km range surface to air missile also capable of terminal phase ballistic missile interception- one per cell
HQ 16- 50 km air to surface missile - can be quad packed
YJ 62- 400 km range antiship missle- one per cell
DH 10- 4000 km cruise missile- one per cell
CJ 10- 2000 km cruise missile- one per cell
ASROC type torpedos- one per cell
YJ 83- 200 km supersonic antiship missile- one per cell
Main gun is the 70 caliber 130mm PJ 38 capable of firing PGMs and normal rounds
CIWS include a 7 barrel type 730 and a 21 round, 15 km range HQ 10 mount

Yep we're freaking delusional comparing ships that are out and have massively larger arsenals with ones that are still not launched

 

[RISING SUN]

Having far longer ranged sams is not a advantage? BMD capabilities are useless? Just because India lacks these things does not mean its useless. Both the US and Europeans View BMD and long range missiles as essential in a Fleet defense destroyer with their standard and aster missiles. BMD missiles require the highest reaction times in the world to deal with mach high hyper sonic aka mach 10 plus missiles. Dealing with missiles that can only go below mach 2 in terminal phase seems rather trivial compared to that

If you wanted to compare short range missiles the type 52D can quad pack them in its 64 VLUS so thats 256 short range missiles to your 64. Yeah you're not going to win a numbers war.

As for who would launch anti ship ballistic missiles the DF 21D is operational according to both Chinese, and US officials. So have fun with those pounding your ships with no BMD. Because BMD is completely useless apparently.

We only need on missile that surpasses the Brahmos here. Range wise the YJ 62 beats the Brahmos easily and as for the supersonic, or subsonic discussion the YJ 12 is a 400 km range supersonic missile that is operated by the chinese since 1999. Supersonic missiles are not exactly out of China's realm. The 2000 km range DH 10 is with full load and the 1000km range is the full load of the nirbhay. Compare apples to apples here. The thing is the P15B is going to incorporate these and they are nowhere to be seen as of this moment.

For Brahmos please keep the discussion on current systems. You do not see me bringing in some un deployed or unheard of Chinese missile into the argument. Its jarring to have to constantly compare things that do not exist to things that have been in service for years.

I'll admit that the P15A has a more helicopters but the AESA system located on four sides of the bridge of the type 52C are far larger and more cpable than the small ones on the structure mounted on the P 15A.

The 54 frigate used to have 4 630s as well and in the 54A they were replaced by two type 730s. The type 730 is a completely autonomous system with is own FCR while the AK 630s are linked single radar.

I have researched plenty and you have ignored some of the most important factors of a modern destroyer, namely BMD. You also like to compare non operational Indian projects to Chinese that that are a decade old. Yeah if I used those kind of arguments China would be more advanced than Aliens.\

Shipbuilding capability is one of the most relevant things when discussing a navy. The type 52C was operational in 2003 and the P 15A yet to be operational. The type 52D has been launched while the P15A has yet to be launched. We are discussing a ship you do not even have operational yet. Thats pretty generous already



This is the comparison the OP put out there. I merely complied with the topic.



Do not hide behind jokes. I'm fairly certain that because since the P 15A has its radar in a structure above the bridge that you thought the type 52C did as well.



Please just work with current facts. I really hate arguing hypotheticals. We can argue ifs to the end of time. And what does the weight of the ship matter when we're discussing weapon systems?

As for the SAM project the Barak 8 ship based system is 70 km. The air force ground based ones are 150 km. So basically yeah nothing to do with your ships.

I'm not underestimating anyone. I do research and present facts based on current facts.

You are dumber than I thought. You are assuming that VLS aboard Indian ships can hold only 1 missile per cell & that too can not be reloaded. BTW Kolkata class has 80 cells not 64. 48 cell Barak 8 SAM & 32 Barak 1 SAM.
You haven't provided link for DH10 employed on Chinese naval ships.
BARAK missile-capability is very close to SM-2. So it may not be BMD but it can hold on its own.
There are total 3 missile under development 70,120,150 KM range. Which one is BARAK 8 is still not clear. Everyone is playing here by using deception others.
For GOD sake just provide a link of DH10 with your naval ships.