Over 100 Sunni scholars declare Wahhabis to be outside mainstream [Sunni] Islam

[Irfan Baloch]

I read on wiki that it was ibn tehmya who started first Fatwa against mongols. Why? Because Mongols had converted themselvs into Muslims for Psywar and degrade arab after taking over Baghdad.
There fore Ibn Tehmya called the mongols Munafiq and persuaded others to confront them. Hence a new sectarian violence started.

I am unaware of this.. in my university studies I has a university requirement to study Islamic Fiqh Ibn Tameyah is covered very affectionately by the saudi funding university.. the Mongal part was missed out. but I will look it up to see if their timeline coincides. during their invasion Mongols did make a new one into the Muslim Empire (Caliphate).

 

[Max]

Prophet Muhammad mentioned black magic and you are saying Muslims don't believe it.

i mean Muslim dont practice it, off course it exist as mentioned by Prophet (saww)..

i dont want any arrgument either.
W.Salam

 

[Irfan Baloch]

this is your personal belief, not all Wahhabi believe in what you do.. let alone visiting Mazar, Wahabi want to destroy all Mazar in this world, and currently they are busy destroying shrines of Prophets (as) and Companions (r.a) in Syria..



[Tafsir Fath al-Qadir, under Sura Bani Isra’il, verse 82]

I agree with you in principle what you are saying but I strongly urge everyone to avoid sectarian bashing of the beliefs of those that are called wahabis. as long as their opposition and difference remains intellectiual and at the level of scholarly debate then it is fine but sadly some of the Muslims moved from takfiri wall chalking to bombings, shootings and beheadings. do remember that the other so called "sufi" Muslims have their own brand of fanatics (support of Mumtaz Qadri being one).

the best way to counter them is through superior , smarter and civilised counter narrative

the narrative of TTP and its affiliates is very intoxicating for our half backed Muslim citizens of Pakistan. they choose to ignore the uncomfortable and contradicting realities about TTP and choose to explain or justify their existence because of the corruption of our leadership (as narrated by himself. ,in Pindi Sheikh Rashid was told by the father of a suicide bomber to leave his house and refused to accept his condolence saying that he didnt recognise Pakistan & considered Pakistan army and people as heretics and deserving death).


problem with our counter narrative is that

it is either condescending and abusive towards "wahabis" (Salafi, deobandi etc).
or apologetic & confused

(the highlighted points deserve a lengthy and separate discussion).

this has to change .. if we are to win the war of the words. militarywise we are strong but we need to stem the influx of zealots into militant making madrassahs

the long term solution is to beg/ convince the Iranian Ayatullahs of Qum and Mullahs of Najad to show some mercy on Muslims in particular and human beings in general and call of their wars. it will have a domino effect and many problems will go away.

Let us add some real spice to the discussion. Janaab @Zarvan haazir ho!

please dont flame bait
I am already here

I am called a wahabi by Shia's and Beralvi/ Sufi s and I am termed as Shia, Ahmedi, grave worshipper , Athiest, Liberal , hindu sympathiser by the so called wahabis (Deobandis, Ahl Hadith, Salafi Muslims).

because I counter both of them for their own extremist views.

the fatwa of these so called Sunni Clerics will mean Jack. if they themselves through their actions also exhibit fanaticism, violence and extremism.

objective and meaningful criticism .. most welcome with respectfully offering alternatives that are compatible and supported by sources of Sheriah (Quan & Sunnah).

but insults and hollow fatwa declaration wont do the job.

 

[surya kiran]

please dont flame bait
I am already here

wokay. deleted.

 

[Qutb-ud-din Aybak]

you cannot call some one who believe in ALLAH and Prophet muhammad(as a last prophet too) a non muslim. it is as simple as that.
any one believing that Allah is weak and make mistakes or quran is changes or muhammad is not the last prophet or curse any sahabi or ummahat ul momineen or considers lying as a holy deed is not a muslim.

people from every sect will go to jannat except the people from all 73 sects who label a muslim as kafir.

 

[Al-Andalus]

Let me repeat myself as it seems that some brainless trolls did not get the message.

So-called "Wahhabism" was not mentioned with a single word during this Putin/Kadyrov-sponsored "religious" conference. Nor is there anything called Wahhabism as nobody calls himself a "Wahhabi". If he does he has misunderstood something. It is merely the Hanbali fiqh which is 1 of the 4 recognized Sunni madahib. The other 3 being the Hanafi, Maliki and Shafi'i. There is more or less a full consensus about this among religious scholars and objective observers.

Besides modern-day KSA is the cradle of Islam and where all major sects of Islam originated from, whether it be Sunni Islam, Shia Islam, Sufism or Islam as a whole. Which is also why you can find all major Islamic sects indigenously in KSA. I do not know a single majority-Muslim country where you can find indigenous communities of Sunni Shafi'is, Hanbalis (including Salafis), Malikis, Hanafis, Sufis, Shia Twelvers, Ismailis and Zaydis.

Why dont these so called Sunni scholars dont condemn Shias who spend day n night spewing BS and hatred against Sahabas?

Because they are more busy engaging in takfir themselves aimed at certain Salafis (militant jihadis). It might have something to do with the fact that most Salafis do not follow a fiqh blindly but first and foremost the Qur'an and ahadith.

Meanwhile in Mullah-ruled Iran their "Supreme Mullah" is equal to a Pope and his rulings have prevalence before anything else.

Let alone the 37 year old poisonous Wilayat al-Faqih system that has absolutely nothing to do with traditional Shia Twelver Islam. Case in point being Sistani's opposition against it and the traditional Shia Twelver Ulama.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardianship_of_the_Islamic_Jurist

Meanwhile those mythical Wahhabis have been in control of Makkah and Madinah for almost 100 years and not the Wilayat al-Faqih lot. As much as they would love that to be the case it will never happen.

Who said they were declared "Kafir"?

They just stated that Wahhabis can no longer consider themselves Sunnis as they contradict the Sunni schools of thought.

Since when did Hanbalis stop being Sunni Muslims? Also what exactly do Hanbalis "contradict"? Care to elaborate or did you just make up your own homemade fatwa on PDF?

Are you saying that the Imams at Al-Masjid Al-Haram and Al-Masjid An-Nabawi are non-Muslims despite being some of the most knowledgeable and respected clerics in the Muslim world? Are you saying that their understanding of Islam is inferior to your own or even un-Islamic? If so you should prove that by using the Qur'an and Ahadith as a reference. So far I have never in my life, seen an honest and objective refutable of Hanbalis.

This people are doing the same thing what Wahabis do, that is declaring other sects Non muslims, semi muslims and quarter muslims........Doesn't anyone see the irony here?

That is the irony here.

Also I was of the opinion that religious discourse was banned. Move the discussion to Sunni doooot coooooom or Shia chat doooot cooom please, and argue with the keyboard Mullah's there. If you guys want more action I can give you the Arabic counterparts.

Lastly speaking about "religious conferences", the only conference of note in the modern era, that can be used for anything, is the Amman Message.

"The recognition of eight legal schools of sharia/fiqh (madhāhib) and the varying schools of Islamic theology viz.[5][6]

1. 1. Sunni Hanafi
   2. Sunni Maliki
   3. Sunni Shafi'i
   4. Sunni Hanbali
   5. Shia Jaʿfari
   6. Shia Zaydi
   7. Ẓāhirī
   8. Ibadi

   • Forbade declaring an apostate anyone who is a follower of:[5]

   1. the Ashʿari/Maturidi creed
   2. real Tasawwuf (Sufism)
   3. true Salafi thought
2. The forbiddance from pronouncing disbelief (takfir) upon (or excommunicating) others recognized as Muslims
3. The stipulations placed as preconditions to the issuing of religious edicts, intended to prevent the circulation of illegitimate edicts."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amman_Message

As for Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) he was an Syrian Arab himself and he never wrote anything about the superiority of any ethnicity or race let alone him looking down on fellow Arabs whether in his native Syria, neighboring Iraq or Egypt. His few controversial teachings (looking at it with modern-day glasses) are impossible to understand if you do not understand the period he lived under and the ENORMOUSLY GRAVE challenges the Arabs and Muslim heartlands felt. Thanks to the message of Ibn Taymiyyah (ra), among other things, the ISIS (1000 times worse than modern-day ISIS) of the Middle Ages (Mongols) were exterminated from the Arab world once and for all after a short but destructive presence (mainly in Baghdad and modern-day Iraq and parts of Syria only). A presence that helped send the Muslim world back centuries in time after being the foremost military, scientific, economic etc. power of the world for almost half a millennia before the Siege of Baghdad in 1258.
Thanks to God as otherwise the Arab Near East might have suffered from several million casualties as modern-day Iran did under the hands of the Mongols. Losing 25% of their entire population.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_conquest_of_Khwarezmia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_under_the_Mongol_Empire

Lastly the pathetic and baseless aims of certain users, probably belonging to a certain sect (Shias), of trying to equate Taliban and ISIS with Hanbalism are only showcasing their ignorance when it comes to Islam and its sects. Taliban is a Pashtun pseudo-religious and socio-cultural movement that is a mixture of local Pashtunwali (which apparently contains numerous un-Islamic practices) and Deobandi/Hanafi influences. Their movement has absolutely nothing to do with Hanbalism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtunwali

Likewise ISIS has nothing to do with Hanbalism as they are followers of a perverted form of Qutbism mixed with Iraqi Ba'athism as all their leaders are former Ba'athist's. Their actions can also only be understood if you understand the "Iraqi arena" and what has been going on there in the past few decades. Besides no scholars belonging to any mainstream Islamic sect recognize their actions as lawful actions under Islam so to even discuss them here is pointless.

Al-Qaeda and most militant jihadists of recent years, including OBL, were followers of Qutbism.

In fact their greatest enemy among the Muslims (politically) were the Hanbalis in KSA as they, despite their traditionalism, would not accept every Tom, Harry and Dick and his interpretations as some oracle but rather remain loyal to their rulers as long as those rulers rule derived from Islam and they did more good than harm. Nor did they call for Jihad unless Muslims and Muslim lands were attacked by foreign aggressors. We are talking 30-15 years back here even.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qutbism

 

[Prince of Dorne]

Kafir is someone who worship idol .

I am 110% kaffir yey

 

[Irfan Baloch]

India should help Iran to prevent it.
Anyway out of kidding if western imperial countries stop full aiding and supporting wahhabi crap it will wipe off the earth in one week.

Alas, you are asking for help from a country that lynches people on suspicion of eating beef and has chosen a PM who prides himself to be a butcher of Muslims and has his forces brutalising people in Kashmir.

Let me repeat myself as it seems that some brainless trolls did not get the message.

So-called "Wahhabism" was not mentioned with a single word during this Putin/Kadyrov-sponsored "religious" conference. Nor is there anything called Wahhabism as nobody calls himself a "Wahhabi". If he does he has misunderstood something. It is merely the Hanbali fiqh which is 1 of the 4 recognized Sunni madahib. The other 3 being the Hanafi, Maliki and Shafi'i. There is more or less a full consensus about this among religious scholars and objective observers.

Besides modern-day KSA is the cradle of Islam and where all major sects of Islam originated from, whether it be Sunni Islam, Shia Islam, Sufism or Islam as a whole. Which is also why you can find all major Islamic sects indigenously in KSA. I do not know a single majority-Muslim country where you can find indigenous communities of Sunni Shafi'is, Hanbalis (including Salafis), Malikis, Hanafis, Sufis, Shia Twelvers, Ismailis and Zaydis.



Because they are more busy engaging in takfir themselves aimed at certain Salafis (militant jihadis). It might have something to do with the fact that most Salafis do not follow a fiqh blindly but first and foremost the Qur'an and ahadith.

Meanwhile in Mullah-ruled Iran their "Supreme Mullah" is equal to a Pope and his rulings have prevalence before anything else.

Let alone the 37 year old poisonous Wilayat al-Faqih system that has absolutely nothing to do with traditional Shia Twelver Islam. Case in point being Sistani's opposition against it and the traditional Shia Twelver Ulama.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardianship_of_the_Islamic_Jurist

Meanwhile those mythical Wahhabis have been in control of Makkah and Madinah for almost 100 years and not the Wilayat al-Faqih lot. As much as they would love that to be the case it will never happen.



Since when did Hanbalis stop being Sunni Muslims? Also what exactly do Hanbalis "contradict"? Care to elaborate or did you just make up your own homemade fatwa on PDF?

Are you saying that the Imams at Al-Masjid Al-Haram and Al-Masjid An-Nabawi are non-Muslims despite being some of the most knowledgeable and respected clerics in the Muslim world? Are you saying that their understanding of Islam is inferior to your own or even un-Islamic? If so you should prove that by using the Qur'an and Ahadith as a reference. So far I have never in my life, seen an honest and objective refutable of Hanbalis.



That is the irony here.

Also I was of the opinion that religious discourse was banned. Move the discussion to Sunni doooot coooooom or Shia chat doooot cooom please, and argue with the keyboard Mullah's there. If you guys want more action I can give you the Arabic counterparts.

Lastly speaking about "religious conferences", the only conference of note in the modern era, that can be used for anything, is the Amman Message.

"The recognition of eight legal schools of sharia/fiqh (madhāhib) and the varying schools of Islamic theology viz.[5][6]

1. 1. Sunni Hanafi
   2. Sunni Maliki
   3. Sunni Shafi'i
   4. Sunni Hanbali
   5. Shia Jaʿfari
   6. Shia Zaydi
   7. Ẓāhirī
   8. Ibadi

   • Forbade declaring an apostate anyone who is a follower of:[5]

   1. the Ashʿari/Maturidi creed
   2. real Tasawwuf (Sufism)
   3. true Salafi thought
2. The forbiddance from pronouncing disbelief (takfir) upon (or excommunicating) others recognized as Muslims
3. The stipulations placed as preconditions to the issuing of religious edicts, intended to prevent the circulation of illegitimate edicts."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amman_Message

As for Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) he was an Syrian Arab himself and he never wrote anything about the superiority of any ethnicity or race let alone him looking down on fellow Arabs whether in his native Syria, neighboring Iraq or Egypt. His few controversial teachings (looking at it with modern-day glasses) are impossible to understand if you do not understand the period he lived under and the ENORMOUSLY GRAVE challenges the Arabs and Muslim heartlands felt. Thanks to the message of Ibn Taymiyyah (ra), among other things, the ISIS (1000 times worse than modern-day ISIS) of the Middle Ages (Mongols) were exterminated from the Arab world once and for all after a short but destructive presence (mainly in Baghdad and modern-day Iraq and parts of Syria only). A presence that helped send the Muslim world back centuries in time after being the foremost military, scientific, economic etc. power of the world for almost half a millennia before the Siege of Baghdad in 1258.
Thanks to God as otherwise the Arab Near East might have suffered from several million casualties as modern-day Iran did under the hands of the Mongols. Losing 25% of their entire population.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_conquest_of_Khwarezmia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_under_the_Mongol_Empire

Lastly the pathetic and baseless aims of certain users, probably belonging to a certain sect (Shias), of trying to equate Taliban and ISIS with Hanbalism are only showcasing their ignorance when it comes to Islam and its sects. Taliban is a Pashtun pseudo-religious and socio-cultural movement that is a mixture of local Pashtunwali (which apparently contains numerous un-Islamic practices) and Deobandi/Hanafi influences. Their movement has absolutely nothing to do with Hanbalism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtunwali

Likewise ISIS has nothing to do with Hanbalism as they are followers of a perverted form of Qutbism mixed with Iraqi Ba'athism as all their leaders are former Ba'athist's. Their actions can also only be understood if you understand the "Iraqi arena" and what has been going on there in the past few decades. Besides no scholars belonging to any mainstream Islamic sect recognize their actions as lawful actions under Islam so to even discuss them here is pointless.

Al-Qaeda and most militant jihadists of recent years, including OBL, were followers of Qutbism.

In fact their greatest enemy among the Muslims (politically) were the Hanbalis in KSA as they, despite their traditionalism, would not accept every Tom, Harry and Dick and his interpretations as some oracle but rather remain loyal to their rulers as long as those rulers rule derived from Islam and they did more good than harm. Nor did they call for Jihad unless Muslims and Muslim lands were attacked by foreign aggressors. We are talking 30-15 years back here even.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qutbism

many thanks for a smart and decent post. this is the kind of discussion that must be followed.
I praise you for differentiating Takfiri Al Qaeda/ ISIS/ Ba'th with rest of Muslims that are collectively called as wahabis (as a derogatory term). I think the attackers of Grand Mosque were also Qutubi (that became Akhwan Muslimeen and later Al Qaeda).

together, we must take the violent narrative away from the Takfiri people who are bringing a bad name to religion.

I am compelled to temporarily close thread to clean it up because unfortunately it has turned into a sectarian bickering.