Osama was hiding in Pakistan , so what !!

[majesticpankaj]

I'll repeat a previous post to answer this inane canard of 'complicity/incompetence':

I still don't see how it was a major act of incompetence. Dozens of OBl's neighbors have been interviewed by almost every major international and local news organization, and none of them had any idea that OBL lived there. None of them reported anything suspicious about the place. The men who were known to live there did nothing to arouse any major suspicion. Even the US, according to Panetta, after all their electronic surveillance, human intelligence specifically targeting the compound, for months, was only 60% to 80% sure that OBL lived there. So how on earth can one expect an agency that wasn't even looking at that compound to realize that OBL was there?

Please keep in mind that the reason the CIA honed onto the compound was because the ISI provided them the cell number of the courier who would eventually lead the US to OBL. The CIA was better able to exploit that bit of intelligence because of other AQ figures that Pakistan had arrested or helped arrest, as well as its technical capabilities to monitor electronic communications.

This is far from the huge case of 'incompetence and/or collusion' that this issue is being made out to be.

dear sir, I cannot believe that the most wanted man was living under the very nose of powerful pakistan military.. think it from the POV of politicians... when last year Mrs.Clinton ad said that OBL is in pakistan...all the people in pakistan was in denial mode and saying that we have the intelligence that he is either died or is in afganistan .. now who is accountable for that failure ? OBL was a great threat to everybody in the whole world including paksitan.. we cannot escape the moral obligation(in reality, nothing is like that).. ur Pasha has already admitted that this is a intelligence failure of the highest order..This incident has raised serious questions regarding internal security of pakistan.... am i right ?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

dear sir, I cannot believe that the most wanted man was living under the very nose of powerful pakistan military..

What do you mean by 'living'? Was he taking walks outside? Was he going 'shopping'? Playing cricket with the neighborhood 'kids'? None of his neighbors even saw him, ever. None of his neighbors ever noticed anything seriously suspicious about the men who did live there, and even the CIA, as I pointed out, was only 60% to 80% sure that OBL was there, despite months of satellite, drone and human surveillance. So given all that, how was the Pakistani military or intelligence supposed to know that OBL lived there?

think it from the POV of politicians... when last year Mrs.Clinton ad said that OBL is in pakistan...all the people in pakistan was in denial mode and saying that we have the intelligence that he is either died or is in afganistan .. now who is accountable for that failure ?

YEs, the intelligence at that time, not just in Pakistan, but in many other nations and the belief of many other analysts, was that OBL was dead or in the tribal areas, and perhaps in Afghanistan. That is the nature of 'intelligence', it can be largely speculative and seriously flawed. The US stated with certainty in the UN that Iraq had WMD's as well.

OBL was a great threat to everybody in the whole world including paksitan.. we cannot escape the moral obligation(in reality, nothing is like that).. ur Pasha has already admitted that this is a intelligence failure of the highest order..This incident has raised serious questions regarding internal security of pakistan.... am i right ?

Pasha made that statement to cool tempers and stifle criticizm - for the reasons I have explained, I do not see the location of OBL as a 'huge' intelligence failure.

Pakistan provided the intel on the courier that led the US to OBL. The failure here was one of trusting the US, and the US deceiving Pakistan and betraying it by not sharing the intelligence it further developed from the lead given to it by Pakistan, and acting unilaterally in carrying out the raid. Had the US shared the intelligence from the telephone call and the ISI assisted in tracking the courier to OBL's compound, this would have been a huge 'intelligence victory'.

That it is being called a failure is primarily because of the US/CIA deceiving and betraying Pakistan.

 

[alphamale]

Osama was hiding in Pakistan , so what !!

this is very irresponsible on the part of those ppl who think this way, the question is not whether osama was hiding in pak or not but the ques is if he had support from Pakistani state.

 

[majesticpankaj]

What do you mean by 'living'? Was he taking walks outside? Was he going 'shopping'? Playing cricket with the neighborhood 'kids'? None of his neighbors even saw him, ever. None of his neighbors ever noticed anything seriously suspicious about the men who did live there, and even the CIA, as I pointed out, was only 60% to 80% sure that OBL was there, despite months of satellite, drone and human surveillance. So given all that, how was the Pakistani military or intelligence supposed to know that OBL lived there?
YEs, the intelligence at that time, not just in Pakistan, but in many other nations and the belief of many other analysts, was that OBL was dead or in the tribal areas, and perhaps in Afghanistan. That is the nature of 'intelligence', it can be largely speculative and seriously flawed. The US stated with certainty in the UN that Iraq had WMD's as well.

Pasha made that statement to cool tempers and stifle criticizm - for the reasons I have explained, I do not see the location of OBL as a 'huge' intelligence failure.

Pakistan provided the intel on the courier that led the US to OBL. The failure here was one of trusting the US, and the US deceiving Pakistan and betraying it by not sharing the intelligence it further developed from the lead given to it by Pakistan, and acting unilaterally in carrying out the raid. Had the US shared the intelligence from the telephone call and the ISI assisted in tracking the courier to OBL's compound, this would have been a huge 'intelligence victory'.

That it is being called a failure is primarily because of the US/CIA deceiving and betraying Pakistan.

let me get the meaning of 'Living' for u...

He was designing evil plans inside the mansion..isn't that true

He was successfully communicating with AQ operatives ..isn't that true

He was the Symbolic figure for all the terrorists... Isn't that true

even he was not doing anything..why the world is more safer now??

even he was present in some other place.. could u call it he was 'living' there??


U can't wash away ur hand by saying that Intelligence can be very speculative... this is the matter of national security and the biggest threat to the country.. It is like Dawood Ibrahim is living next door to south block.... I tell u what u r seeing the intelligence failure from American perspective, try to see it from pakistani perspective that how fragile security u have in the area of great strategic importance.. The belief f major agencies were that he was present in pakistan ..CIA, afgan, Indian etc.. only ISI was shouting from the roof of the mountain that he was not here in pakistan.

I think it is a huge intelligence failure from the pakistanis perspective forget about world.

Incompetence plus incompetence still equals incompetence, goes a Murphy's Law. On May 9, Pakistan's Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani mounted a spirited defence of his country's role in the war against Al-Qaeda. But it couldn't hide his country's twin incompetence that the US operation to take out Osama bin Laden highlighted nine days earlier: the intelligence failure to detect Osama hiding in a most-secured garrison town for about six years; and the military failure to discover, in real time, the midnight US helicopter-borne Operation Geronimo. Gilani spoke not a word on it. He had good reason not to speak on them, because the humiliation was total.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

let me get the meaning of 'Living' for u...

He was designing evil plans inside the mansion..isn't that true

He was successfully communicating with AQ operatives ..isn't that true

He was the Symbolic figure for all the terrorists... Isn't that true

even he was not doing anything..why the world is more safer now??

even he was present in some other place.. could u call it he was 'living' there??


U can't wash away ur hand by saying that Intelligence can be very speculative... this is the matter of national security and the biggest threat to the country.. It is like Dawood Ibrahim is living next door to south block.... I tell u what u r seeing the intelligence failure from American perspective, try to see it from pakistani perspective that how fragile security u have in the area of great strategic importance.. The belief f major agencies were that he was present in pakistan ..CIA, afgan, Indian etc.. only ISI was shouting from the roof of the mountain that he was not here in pakistan.

I think it is a huge intelligence failure from the pakistanis perspective forget about world.

None of that addressed the points I made - why exactly should the ISI have known that OBL was in that compound?

How did the CIA discover that OBL was in that compound? Through intelligence provided by the ISI, which the CIA developed further and then deceived and lied to Pakistan about.

“They are furious. They handed over telephone intercepts in 2009 that were crucial in leading to bin Laden’s courier – the key breakthrough in the hunt,” said a source briefed on relations between the two countries.

“Then four months ago they were told there was nothing in it, it was what the Americans called a ‘cold lead’. Since then they have been left out completely out of the loop.”

The newspaper says that in order to keep Pakistan in the dark, the US officials gave the impression that leads provided to them by Pakistan lack any crucial substance.​

ISI refuses intelligence-sharing with CIA: Report – The Express Tribune

It is clear that Pakistan's intelligence was on the mark and doing its job in tracking down AQ and OBL, it was the US that decided not to cooperate and share further intelligence based on what Pakistan provided.

 

[SpArK]

None of that addressed the points I made - why exactly should the ISI have known that OBL was in that compound?

How did the CIA discover that OBL was in that compound? Through intelligence provided by the ISI, which the CIA developed further and then deceived and lied to Pakistan about.

“They are furious. They handed over telephone intercepts in 2009 that were crucial in leading to bin Laden’s courier – the key breakthrough in the hunt,” said a source briefed on relations between the two countries.

“Then four months ago they were told there was nothing in it, it was what the Americans called a ‘cold lead’. Since then they have been left out completely out of the loop.”

The newspaper says that in order to keep Pakistan in the dark, the US officials gave the impression that leads provided to them by Pakistan lack any crucial substance.​

ISI refuses intelligence-sharing with CIA: Report – The Express Tribune

It is clear that Pakistan's intelligence was on the mark and doing its job in tracking down AQ and OBL, it was the US that decided not to cooperate and share further intelligence based on what Pakistan provided.

If there were proper intelligence, why was it hard to take down the commonaly acknowledged Topmost terrorist of the world along with 3-4 guys in a secluded compound.

Why wait for US to take action? Arent ur army capable of going inside for searching and if its identified true , take him down ?

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

Bin Laden was a US prisoner before being killed: Ahmadinejad
Bin Laden was a US prisoner before being killed: Ahmadinejad | World | DAWN.COM

Some big time drama is going on - Is US tired of spending 10 billion a month in Afghanistan and now wana cut the numbers

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Those who did terrorist attacks of 9/11 in USA were living/hiding there so according to Indian logic USA or their intelligence should blame for not tracing those terrorists
Same could be said about terrorist who did terrorist activities while living/hiding in India, Pak, UK

Again Al qaida killed more Pakistani peoples in terrorist activities than anyone else so think before you blame Pakistan

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

If there were proper intelligence, why was it hard to take down the commonaly acknowledged Topmost terrorist of the world along with 3-4 guys in a secluded compound.

Why wait for US to take action? Arent ur army capable of going inside for searching and if its identified true , take him down ?

If youbwould bother reading the entire argument related to the intelligence provided by the ISI you would realize that it was the technical capacity of the CIA to monitor electronic communications of the individual that led to him being tracked down and eventually led to laden. Pakistan does not have that capability, but without Pakistan providing the leads to the courier, the CIA had nothing to work with either.

 

[SpArK]

If youbwould bother reading the entire argument related to the intelligence provided by the ISI you would realize that it was the technical capacity of the CIA to monitor electronic communications of the individual that led to him being tracked down and eventually led to laden. Pakistan does not have that capability, but without Pakistan providing the leads to the courier, the CIA had nothing to work with either.

Was the intelligence input all about a possible Bin laden hide out?

If yes why cant they send even a local policeman to check who the inmates are? There was surely no big army present in that small confinement in the middle of a big army establishments.

I dont know how it works there, but here if an info about a criminal is gained we send force to check if the intel is true. We dont have the need to inform CIA on cases like this.

The argument could have been better if the hideout is some remote place. Here it is not...

Just think what if the Pakistani authorities themselves have acted upon own intel and smoked that guy. Since its not the case, we have to see hundreds of conspiracy theories from all corners and learn new things everyday..

 

[AAtish]

WOW!.. Mods.. can you please change the topic from

"Osama was hiding in Pakistan , so what !!"

To

"If for argument's sake, Osama was hiding in Pakistan , so what !!"

Thanks, otherwise, it would be difficult for me to understand why we are having this conversation.. There is not even a single piece of evidence confirming that OBL was in that mansion in Abbottabad, everything is word of mouth..

 

[Pak_Sher]

if he was just hiding or was being sheltered since he lived so close to your military academy.

Enough of this useless military academy argument. The military academy is a small city by itself. They do not even leave the academy since everything is within the academy. It is not the job of the cadets to come out and search every house in the neighbhoring suburbs. Some stupid jounalist I think Fareed Zakaria (Anti-Pakistan) is the first one who mentioned this fact. Fareed Zakari is the most baised and red neck journalist and he cannot even hide his Indian poison when reporting on the national network. He can burn in hell in his next life. May Allah sent him to hell, Amin.

 

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Enough of this useless military academy argument. The military academy is a small city by itself. They do not even leave the academy since everything is within the academy. It is not the job of the cadets to come out and search every house in the neighbhoring suburbs. Some stupid jounalist I think Fareed Zakaria (Anti-Pakistan) is the first one who mentioned this fact. Fareed Zakari is the most baised and red neck journalist and he cannot even hide his Indian poison when reporting on the national network. He can burn in hell in his next life. May Allah sent him to hell, Amin.

Frustrated because the truth is now nipping you where the sun don't shine?

 

[jeypore]

Thats my point , why should we listen to the US ?

Because you need US money!!!!

China is not in the mood of giving, IMF is worried about your next payment schedule.... And also, recently hiring bunch of US lobbiest (Lawyers for laymen person) and paying millions, does speak volumes of the Cash flow that seems be on the edge.... Lets wait on the Congress on this issue..

 

[AAtish]

Because you need US money!!!!

China is not in the mood of giving, IMF is worried about your next payment schedule.... And also, recently hiring bunch of US lobbiest (Lawyers for laymen person) and paying millions, does speak volumes of the Cash flow that seems be on the edge.... Lets wait on the Congress on this issue..

I would be happy if congress denies any financial aid to Pakistan.. rather i would suggest them to have some balls to do it..

as Russel Peters (NRI) would say.. be a man.. do the right thing..

My request to US as a Pakistani, Please pass the resolution of not giving any aid to Pakistan, please cut all ties with Pakistan, We would love US if US Govt. took this step.. At least these SOBs sitting in Presidency and PM house along with FO @$$hole will not try to scare us anymore..

Go US.. do the right thing.. Cut all ties with Pakistan, No Aid, No Friendship, No ties.. Period!!