Osama Dead. Obama Confirms.

[Mujeeb47]

@ East Watch
Yes ! There is fault in our security setup. But this operation has pointed us our faults. So, now, we can remove these faults and make our defence line more stronger.

 

[T-Faz]

T-Faz.. i am really amazed at how freely and bluntly you question the integrity of PA, ISI and other intelligence agencies..

I think they are taking the right direction.. its a case of someone shouting at bigger loud speaker..

However, the questions are (which are supposed to be asked)

Why is the US account of operation changes every hour? Why are they not showing "gruesome" pictures of OBL when the other 3 are already everywhere and they are gruesome on the same level, if not more? Why are you so ashamed to ask these questions to US when their own media along with International media is asking these questions?

As far as you questions are concerned.. lets calmly analyse, shall we? (i'm a systems analyst by profession, thats the reason its difficult for me to digest)

1. It is a lie that PA was not aware of them coming in and going out.. the only mistake which PA made was to "allow" them to come in.. PA was not aware that the "hidden agenda" is to frame the integrity of Pakistan.. It is a lapse from planners and "counter" planners.. US here is one up.. PA never expected that they are going to claim that "they killed OBL" just because OBL was not there..

2. As i said, OBL was not there, yeah might be his family, but he was not there.. and as far his family is concerned, his brothers, sisters and elders sons have been living in western countries on and off.. so that also doesn't prove anything...

3. They were not suppose to stop that "incursion" just because it was NOT an incursion..

4. Agreed.. but i would say.. thats not army's fault.. Govt. needs to increase the income and internal security.. thats not army's responsibility

5. Based on what i said above.. this is what the whole world wants.. but is not in favor of Pakistan..

Hope you'll stop.. analyse.. examine.. and then judge..

I am amazed that you still list the word 'integrity' in relation to our security agencies.

If this was the right direction, Pakistan would not be getting internationally maligned by all and one under the sun.

What the US does, did or did not do is anyones guess?

My post is specifically about what our security agencies are doing?

After all they have confirmed that it was Osama and they did not have any information on what happened. Why would they take this stance when they know that any respect or 'integrity' that they might have have will wither away. Why is the PA in such a position and isn't it their job to be alert at all times.

If another nation comes into a sovereign nation over the pretense of some mission, I am sure the army of that nation would clarify the reason, which PA clearly did not.

Why has the intelligence agency confirmed Osama was there, if he wasn't, why aren't they indicating this?

Its not the civilian governments fault at all, the army has failed and it has brought great destruction towards Pakistan.

I hope you are able to analyze, examine and then come to a conclusion because your point of view is restricted.

 

[Omar1984]

Pakistan gave permission to U.S. to enter Abbottabad when ISI's chief was in Washington 3 weeks ago and when Mullen was in Rawalpindi and Islamabad a week ago. Pakistan is silent because extremists are mourning and are determined to take revenge.

And if any of you think Pakistan was hiding Osama in Abbottabad, do you think we are that stupid to hide him next to a military academy and ISI office in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa? A better place to hide would be in a village in Punjab or in interior Sindh.

If we made a public announcement that yes we gave permission to America to come raid Abbottabad then all the extremists would be burning Pakistan's cities today.

Take a look at the map. See how far away Abbottabad is from Afghanistan. Its impossible that Pakistan didnt know about U.S. helicopters intruding into Pakistan.

 

[Mujeeb47]

@ T-Faz
Yes ! They are maligning Pakistan and Pakistan Army as usual.
Yes ! It was security failure of Pakistan for not tracing Osama but what was CIA doing in Terbela?
I think it was understanding that Pakistan will allow USA to operate (wait for more inner stories).
And in the last, we are proud of Pak Army.

 

[Hulk]

Hi,

Seems like the helicopter lost was a high tech stealth type chopper----now there is concern that the technology would go through china to pakistan.

First OBL strike gives us the tomahawk cruise missile---the last strike gives us a stealth helicopter or a part of it----shoudn't we be grateful to someone.

American news media is talking a lot about the technology of this chopper.

That helicopter wreckage is in US custody by now, you are forgetting they have a strong presence in Pakistan. Also, Pakistan has not reason to deny them the wreckage.

 

[sreekimpact]

Pakistan gave permission to U.S. to enter Abbottabad when ISI's chief was in Washington 3 weeks ago and when Mullen was in Rawalpindi and Islamabad a week ago. Pakistan is silent because extremists are mourning and are determined to take revenge.

And if any of you think Pakistan was hiding Osama in Abbottabad, do you think we are that stupid to hide him next to a military academy and ISI office in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa? A better place to hide would be in a village in Punjab or in interior Sindh.




If we made a public announcement that yes we gave permission to America to come raid Abbottabad then all the extremists would be burning Pakistan's cities today.

Take a look at the map. See how far away Abbottabad is from Afghanistan. Its impossible, Pakistan didnt know about U.S. helicoptesr intruding into Pakistan.

any links to justify your comments ??? please.

if we go by what you are saying .....this incident was really bad for your country.......

isi should have handled this in a better way..

 

[hembo]

India had twice told US about Osama's likely presence close to Islamabad.

NEW DELHI: It now turns out that Indian agencies had twice warned their US counterparts about the presence of al-Qaida chief Osama bin Laden in an urbanized and heavily populated area not very far from Islamabad – once in mid-2007 and again in early 2008 when they specifically mentioned his likely presence in a cantonment area. On both occasions, the Americans either did not take the Indian intelligence seriously or perhaps were too busy working on their own inputs about Osamas whereabouts.

The first time Indian security agencies gave this information to the US authorities was in mid-2007, soon after a Taliban meeting in Peshawar which was attended by Osamas No.2 Ayman al-Zawahiri. According to the information gathered by Indian intelligence operatives, this meeting was also attended by top leaders of Haqqani network and at least two ISI officials.

Days after the meeting, Zawahiri visited Islamabad as per the information available with Indian authorities and this formed the basis of Indias first input to the US about Osamas hideout. "The urgency with which Zawahiri visited Islamabad or the area in its vicinity suggested that he was there for some purpose. We told them about Zawahiri visiting Islamabad and we also told them that we believed Osama may not be hiding in caves but in a highly urbanized area somewhere near Islamabad. Of course, nobody had spotted him and it was a conclusion we drew on the basis of the information we got," said a top intelligence official involved in processing the information.

In the next six months, Indian operatives every now and then came up with information about movement of Osamas confidants in the region. The next definite input passed on to the US agencies by Indian officials was in early 2008 when there was specific mention made of his illness and his likely presence in a cantonment area. "This time we specifically mentioned about his presence in a cantonment area. It was because we had definite information that his movement was restricted owing to his illness and that it would have been impossible for him to go to an ordinary hospital. We told the Americans that only in a cantonment area could he be looked after by his ISI or other Pakistani benefactors," said the official.

While the US has officially maintained that Pakistani authorities were not informed about the operation till the American choppers left Pakistani airspace, India security officials take this with a pinch of salt. "The Americans might have that capability but we have no reason to rule out that the Pakistanis decided to turn him in because he was proving to be too much of a liability for them with no operational utility," an official said.

This has also raised doubts about the whereabouts of Zawahiri, now widely regarded as al-Qaidas supreme leader. In the past, he has been reported to be hiding somewhere in the Afghanistan-Pakistan border area.

India had twice told US about Osama's likely presence close to Islamabad - The Times of India

Can anyone give any other source for this news, other then TOIlet?? Perhaps weakileaks??

 

[Guest01]

Pakistan gave permission to U.S. to enter Abbottabad when ISI's chief was in Washington 3 weeks ago and when Mullen was in Rawalpindi and Islamabad a week ago. Pakistan is silent because extremists are mourning and are determined to take revenge.

And if any of you think Pakistan was hiding Osama in Abbottabad, do you think we are that stupid to hide him next to a military academy and ISI office in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa? A better place to hide would be in a village in Punjab or in interior Sindh.

If we made a public announcement that yes we gave permission to America to come raid Abbottabad then all the extremists would be burning Pakistan's cities today.

Take a look at the map. See how far away Abbottabad is from Afghanistan. Its impossible that Pakistan didnt know about U.S. helicopters intruding into Pakistan.

And you were told about this in privacy by.......?

Did he also divulge the details about Area51 and Zaid Hamid plans for the India rule for next 1000 years?

 

[T-Faz]

And you were told about this in privacy by.......?

My guess is either Elvis Presley or the aliens who landed at Roswell.

 

[RabzonKhan]

Hasty burial at sea for no good reason?

I say he is alive, if he was at the compound. The US is interrogating him and will eventually kill him and release the pictures.

They didn't want to announce the capture since that would have possibly spiked terrorist attacks against Western targets to bargain for his release and/or act in his name.

The US will eventually kill him, because it would be very hard to conceal a prisoner of his status for any long period of time. Get whatever information they can out of him, and then shoot him as described in the press releases and dump his body into the sea from some AC Carrier.

---------- Post added at 04:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:50 PM ----------



.

Gosh, Agno, I can't believe you wrote that!

 

[hembo]

Absolutely right.
What is the gain in 'protecting' OBL? Nothing. It would be all loss. Now, one can argue that Pakistan does have some stakes in factions of Talibans, especially the Haqqani faction, to exercise counter-India influence there. But that is different. You can certainly accuse ISI of incompetence and debate that.
Now, to our Non-Pakistani guests:
If you are here to bash Pakistan then you will only inflame passions and achieve nothing. Pushed to a corner unjustifiably even the most liberal Pakistanis are going to push back. If bashing is the goal then please go to Bharat Rakshak or Yahoo etc.
But if you are here to understand Pakistan and the war and want peace in this world then hear us loud and clear: OBL was most UNwelcome even in the best of times (1996-2001) when Pakistani allies ruled Afghanistan. His presence was nothing but a source of anarchy, bloodshed and shame. Pakistan would gain nothing by 'harboring' him. Do some critical thinking.

Very fair point. Now, if I may ask you and All-green and other like minded members to present us your opinion on public mourning of Osama's death by the likes of Hafiz Saeed and co? Or like the group of lawers denouncing Osama's assanination? Or on those (Garland by lawers etc) who had put criminals/ killer like Mumtaz Qadri on a pedestal? How will those help bringing in peace in this region? What, in you guys opinion, should be done with such elements?

 

[Jigs]

Hasty burial at sea for no good reason?

I say he is alive, if he was at the compound. The US is interrogating him and will eventually kill him and release the pictures.

They didn't want to announce the capture since that would have possibly spiked terrorist attacks against Western targets to bargain for his release and/or act in his name.

The US will eventually kill him, because it would be very hard to conceal a prisoner of his status for any long period of time. Get whatever information they can out of him, and then shoot him as described in the press releases and dump his body into the sea from some AC Carrier.

I really was not expecting this from you.

 

[hembo]

Again, the construction of the residence was nothing out of the ordinary in Pakistan:



Osama bin Laden's last hours come into focus as White House revises its story | World news | The Guardian

Really? With 3 feet thick walls??? Is that a common norm??

From your link only

But it was the only house in the neighbourhood with barbed wire and surveillance cameras. And it towered over its only neighbour, a small, ramshackle dwelling made of rough bricks with plastic sheeting for windows. The people inside were scared and apprehensive.

Zain Muhammad, an elderly man perched on a rope bed on the porch, said Pakistani soldiers had come in the night and taken away his son, Shamraiz. He produced a photo of a smiling man with a moustache in his early 40s. "I've no idea where he is. The soldiers won't allow us to leave, not even to fetch water." The family did harbour some suspicions about the house 10 feet away, however – and in particular the pair of secretive, security-conscious brothers who owned it.

"They told us they had to protect themselves because they had enemies back in their home village. They had to screen off the house to protect their women. A lot of us thought they were smugglers," said Abid Khan. Stranger still, the two men had two cows and some goats, but had no discernible source of income.

~~

But the young trader did notice one strange thing. Seven years earlier he had worked on the house as a labourer when it was being built, and had wondered why the brothers insisted that the walls should be 3ft thick

Whom are we kidding? Competent security agencies aren't meant to look at things like we ordinary mortals do.. At least that's what I thought.

 

[Hulk]

I was catching up with an old friend of mine yesterday and he cracked a rather hilarious joke.

"Pakistan mein koi bhi safe nahin hai ,osama bhi nahin .Lekin bharat main sab safe hai ,Kasab bhi"

pls take the joke in right spirits.no offence intended.

Its more of a joke on India then Pakistan, thanks to Congress.

 

[T-Rex]

Hi, I posted this article in the Air Force section as it seemed the most relevant forum section. Moderators, if this has been discussed already or is not in the correct section, kindly please close it or move it respectively. Thanks.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/05/world/asia/05pakistan.html?_r=1&hp

Pakistani Army, Shaken by Raid, Faces New Scrutiny
By JANE PERLEZ
Published: May 4, 2011

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — The reputation of the army, the most powerful and privileged force in Pakistan, has been severely undermined by the American raid that killed Osama bin Laden, raising profound questions about its credibility from people at home and from benefactors abroad, including the United States.

That American helicopters could fly into Pakistan, kill the world’s most wanted terrorist and then fly out undetected has produced a stunned silence from the military and its intelligence service since Monday that some interpret as overwhelming embarrassment, even humiliation.

There is no doubt that the raid has provoked a crisis of confidence for what was long seen as the one institution that held together a nation dangerously beset by militancy and chronically weak civilian governments.

The aftermath has left Pakistanis to challenge their leadership, and the United States to further question an already frequently distrusted partner.

By Wednesday, members of Parliament, newspaper editorials and Pakistan’s raucous political talk shows were calling for an explanation and challenging the military and intelligence establishment, institutions previously immune to public reproach.

Some were calling for an independent inquiry, focused less on the fact that the world’s most wanted terrorist was discovered in their midst than on whether the military could defend Pakistan’s borders and its nuclear arsenal from being snatched or attacked by the United States or India.

“If these people are found to be incompetent, heads should roll,” said Zafar Hilaly, a prominent newspaper columnist.

Different questions were coming from Pakistan’s neighbors and Western allies, including the United States. In Congress, powerful lawmakers in charge of foreign military assistance delivered scathing assessments of the Pakistani Army as either incompetent or duplicitous, saying that renewed financial support was hardly guaranteed.

In Britain, Prime Minister David Cameron told Parliament it was unbelievable that the Pakistani authorities did not know that Bin Laden was hiding not far from the capital.

But the most urgent question of all is what to do about it, and whether the United States should continue to invest in a Pakistani military whose assurances that it does not work with terrorists carry less weight than ever.

Pakistani officials, who feel betrayed by the United States for not informing them in advance about the raid, are responding more defensively by the day.

The biggest question for Pakistan is whether the event prompts a reconsideration of its security strategy, which has long depended on militant proxies, including groups entwined with Al Qaeda.

American officials are certain to use the fact that Bin Laden had taken shelter in Pakistan to press the country for a clearer break from its past. Both sides have an interest in preserving some form of the status quo. Pakistan would like to keep the billions of dollars in aid that flow from the United States. The United States would like to prevent this nuclear-armed Muslim nation from turning more hostile, hosting terrorist networks and complicating efforts to end the war in Afghanistan. But the challenges ahead were revealed in how the outrage over the Bin Laden raid has cut differently in Pakistan and the United States.

For the United States, it has raised the issue of whether any assurance provided by the Pakistani military can be trusted, including the security of its nuclear arsenal. The army has insisted it is adequately protected from extremists, but has resisted security assistance from the United States that it considers too invasive. “We can press Pakistan until the cows come home on its nuclear program,” said Michael Krepon, a co-founder of the Stimson Center in Washington, which works on programs to reduce nuclear weapons. “But they are not going to do the things that we would like them to do that they don’t want to do.”

In Pakistan, commentators who consider the nuclear weapons the country’s most valued asset have raised another concern: In light of the American operation, are the weapons safe from a raid by the United States, or even India?

Meanwhile, the chief of the army, Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, and the head of the Inter-Services Intelligence agency, Lt. Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha, have remained silent about what they knew or did not know about Bin Laden’s presence.

They have both met with President Asif Ali Zardari since the American raid, but no mention has been made in public of those discussions. Civilian politicians have been virtually absent.

Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani left for France on Tuesday, but said Wednesday that he would cut short his trip and return home. Senior ministers in the cabinet failed to turn up in Parliament to offer any explanations on Tuesday or Wednesday.

Instead, the Foreign Office and the information minister, apparently on orders from the military, issued statements intended to explain the shortcomings.

In Parliament on Wednesday, Information Minister Firdous Ashiq Awan said the American helicopters had evaded detection by radar “due to hilly terrain” and use of “map of the earth” flying techniques, an account that failed to comfort almost anyone.

The Foreign Office defended the fact that Bin Laden was not detected because the high security walls at his house in Abbottabad were in line with a culture of privacy. These scant explanations fueled more speculation.

One of the military’s biggest advocates, Kamran Khan, a journalist whose nightly television show garners big audiences, led the chorus: “We had the belief that our defense was impenetrable, but look what has happened. Such a massive intrusion and it went undetected.”

Mr. Khan posed the question on many Pakistani minds: “What is the guarantee that our strategic assets and security installations are safe?”

In some Pakistani quarters, the failure of the army and intelligence agencies to detect Bin Laden, or to do anything about him if indeed his presence was known, prompted calls for an overhaul of the nation’s strategic policies.

“Instead of making more India-specific nuclear-capable missiles, the funds and the energy should be directed to eliminating the terrorists,” said an editorial in the newspaper Pakistan Today.

The editor, Arif Nizami, said the American raid made a mockery of the Pakistani military’s bravura that its fighter jets could shoot down American drones. “You talk of taking out drones, and you can’t even take out helicopters,” Mr. Nizami said.

Some Pakistanis said they were more concerned about the fact that known terrorists were living in their midst than the violation of sovereignty by the Americans.

“The terrorists’ being on our soil is the biggest violation of Pakistan’s sovereignty,” said Athar Minallah, a prominent lawyer. “If Osama bin Laden lives in Abbottabad, there could be a terrorist in my neighborhood.”

I've read the entire report, it's quite damning! Ahmad Shuja Pasha definitely knew about the presence of Laden in Pakistan. Now, it's quite clear that Pakistan's strategic assets are not safe in the hands of the PPP goverment. Americans can snatch them away while remaining undetected with the help of these traitors. Heads must roll and the process should begin with Ahmad Shuja Pasha.