Opinion; Image of the uniform

[fatman17]

The Image of the uniform.. the JCO, the NCO.. is pristine..
We love them, we would give our blood to them..
The image of the stars on the shoulder ones.. isnt..

a bit rough isnt it - so all 'generals' and the mid-level officers, the LT's, capt's, majors and col's sacrifices are in vain according to you. u can name the number of generals who dabbled in politics on the fingers of your one hand - the rest do their jobs as well as can be expected of them and then retire knowing that nothing happened while they were on the 'watch'.

 

[fatman17]

There was a time when Pakistan's men in uniform gave divine strength to the people. Rummaging through this forum, I see fissures in sentiments.

maybe so but 79% of the people still view the armed forces with admiration. yes the % is down from 89% right after the swat ops but the good thing is that the armed forces have a well established 'internal system' of checks and balances which will rectify the 'fissures' as they appear to us..........i wish i could say the same for our civilian govt.

 

[Jango]

i went to the friday sermon yesterday at a mosque near my home in islamabad, the imam there was saying that these people afre blindly following these kuffar, the white kuffar say that the terrorist is here and the pakistani kuffar go and kill the terrorist. My question here is that on one hand he is categorically saying that those people are ; 'dahshatgard' , but then he says that killing these muslims is a crime???,,,,how are these people muslims if they are killing inncoent people, they are destroying mosques, they are forbidding children from going to school????.......when my father was still in the army, we went in this mosque for eid prayer. During the dua he was abusing the armed forces. And in the beginning we left the dua.

Point is that in pakistan, these mullahs are the breeding ground of extremism , this guy i am sure could not justify these people being called muslim. Why dont these mullahs teach that people should talk politely, dont take haram, dont climb over people during friday mosques, dont talk during the sermon, rather they say that ; 'shalwar takhnon se upar kar lain' as if this is a farz of prayer.,,,,,,,this is IMO the problem with the religion of islam within pakistan, MISINTERPRETATION being spread through these mullahs and hence lambasting of the armed forces.

 

[ice_man]

i have asked this question before and i will reask this question....MULLAH hates military yet they joined MUSHARRAF and supported him throughout his rule....and MULLAHs call army "agents of cia" well did any mullah resign from cabinet after lal masjid?? mullahs divide society just like politicians for their own gains!

 

[Patriot]

Armed Forces still are very popular in average household but of course they are hated by religious nuts/leftists and of course the modern liberal people because you can't become a liberal (In Political Sense) unless you become anti Pakistani/Armed Forces.Hating a certain individual in Armed Forces (Musharraf for example) does not mean you hate the entire Armed Forces.

 

[SQ8]

a bit rough isnt it - so all 'generals' and the mid-level officers, the LT's, capt's, majors and col's sacrifices are in vain according to you. u can name the number of generals who dabbled in politics on the fingers of your one hand - the rest do their jobs as well as can be expected of them and then retire knowing that nothing happened while they were on the 'watch'.

I thought the star's come on at brigadier level?? or are captain's wearing stars these days as well??
Its those that dabbled in politics, engaged in corruption(in the words of military officers themselves).. and sold out that the rest end up losing their credibility. If there are black sheep.. would you let them be?
If a captain abandons his post, he gets a court martial..
If a general decides to withhold information, or reveals it to the enemy.. who holds him accountable?

maybe so but 79% of the people still view the armed forces with admiration. yes the % is down from 89% right after the swat ops but the good thing is that the armed forces have a well established 'internal system' of checks and balances which will rectify the 'fissures' as they appear to us..........i wish i could say the same for our civilian govt.

Why is the civilian govt the proverbial "chipkali ki dum" to all Army "sacred" ones here?
I dont disagree with the statement.. I just find it unnecessary.. why is it that on EVERY thread where there is critique on the army, the best defense seems to start pointing out the trash in the civilian government as a diversionary tactic. Why is it not possible to discuss JUST the army without bringing in the Civilian government.. at any stage.. or any form?

 

[VCheng]

......



Why is the civilian govt the proverbial "chipkali ki dum" to all Army "sacred" ones here?
I dont disagree with the statement.. I just find it unnecessary.. why is it that on EVERY thread where there is critique on the army, the best defense seems to start pointing out the trash in the civilian government as a diversionary tactic. Why is it not possible to discuss JUST the army without bringing in the Civilian government.. at any stage.. or any form?

Very truthful words indeed. It is a well tried DIVERSIONARY TACTIC, nothing more.

 

[fatman17]

Very truthful words indeed. It is a well tried DIVERSIONARY TACTIC, nothing more.

indeed - it works both ways! lets not get holier than thou here! you want to critique, fine do it but dont get too emotional about it like your earlier post here.

same for you santro!

 

[Stealth IFV]

Sir,

These fissures in sentiments are for the general staff officers---the ideology, the strategy, the vision, the game planning-----I would go to bat for any and every millitary personale except for the general staff officers---.

I would agree with you, Pakistan's tacticians have generation after generation, passed on the reins of control to some complete arse hats.

 

[VCheng]

indeed - it works both ways! lets not get holier than thou here! you want to critique, fine do it but dont get too emotional about it like your earlier post here.

same for you santro!

Roger that Sir, O ye of great weight!

 

[blain2]

a bit rough isnt it - so all 'generals' and the mid-level officers, the LT's, capt's, majors and col's sacrifices are in vain according to you. u can name the number of generals who dabbled in politics on the fingers of your one hand - the rest do their jobs as well as can be expected of them and then retire knowing that nothing happened while they were on the 'watch'.

This is really the crux of the issue. A few give the entire institution of armed forces a bad name. Many here have chosen to only compliment ORs and Field officers (Lt Col and below) however most Generals of the Pakistan Army and other services deserve the same. Their financial compensation is one thing (which can be debated and maybe changed by the Government of the day should it so desire), however they too are put through the same mill that other field officers are going through now and getting credit and compliments for. These generals are a very patriotic bunch (almost to a fault) and in their own mindset (which has been shaped up after 3 decades + of service) they feel that they are doing what is the right thing for Pakistan. That they get this wrong sometimes by participating in governance is an issue and has to be fixed, however this is a separate issue from that of fighting a war for Pakistan.

I think its a fallacy to single out the senior leadership (which includes Brigs, Maj Gens and Lt Gens) and put this stigma on all of them as if they are doing nothing but sitting on their behinds.

Ours is a good Army. Actually a very good Army but not one without its challenges (like all other Armies that have challenges). This is the reason that the people of Pakistan still consider the Armed Forces to be the most admired institution in Pakistan, much to the chagrin of Pakistan bashers. The reasons for this admiration are many.

To those who call upon the mixed results of the past wars and the loss of East Pakistan as proof of the failures of the Army, I would put forward one thing. Consider what Pakistan is faced with. The adversary is not an equal. Its much larger with many more resources. Yet the fact that the Army refuses to cow down and ensures that Pakistan's interests are secured as best as possible provides an appropriate context which then makes one realize that the setbacks suffered have been due to certain limitations that we have faced.

The failures of our senior military leadership are not one-sided. The other side has done more than its share of blunders. The difference between us and the other side is that they do not fight for their survival (the threat from Pakistan lacks that quantum) as such even in the case of failures, the critique is not as harsh as what our armed forces are subjected to (rightly so as well however it should be measured, not the rabid campaign that has been unleashed on this national institution by all and sundry). Admittedly the Pakistani nation has invested a lot in the armed forces, however whatever it is, it is still significantly less than what the adversary puts in. Most Western analysts are of the view that Pakistan should not even bother with India as we are out numbered on every count. However this is something that runs counter to the psyche of the Armed Forces and I, for one, am very proud of this. While I am all for peace with India and the emasculation of one off groups creating problems between us and the Indians, but whatever arrangement is arrived at should be with the realization by the other side that their views are ramrodded down our throats without us having a recourse (this is the geo-political and military option).

So these aspects need to be given some thought before lambasting Armed forces and their entire leadership for failures.

 

[blain2]

I would agree with you, Pakistan's tacticians have generation after generation, passed on the reins of control to some complete arse hats.

So do you and others with similar thinking believe that we bring people from outside to become our General Staff overnight and then they take hold of the reigns without any idea on what to do next? Had you talked to some from this very same "General Staff arse hats" as you refer to them, they would have given you some "schooling" on the myriad of challenges being faced by Pakistan and their limitations as well as the motivations for the things they do.

I am not suggesting that their decision making is without fault, however it is also one of the most constrained group of General staff owing to what is happening in Pakistan's neighbourhood. With these constraints, come limitations and hard calls, some of which will be wrong, others not so.

I can tell you one thing for sure, there isn't a single government or private think tank inside of Pakistan that does as much thinking and evaluation of the challenges being faced by Pakistan as this much maligned General Staff.

 

[Dalai Lama]

Maybe I've misunderstood but regarding this part: "We were there on Indian tiger hills because we are the real tigers. We gave 5000 lives in fighting terrorists so that you sleep well".

What's this about? Is this one army openly calling another army "terrorists"?

 

[SQ8]

Maybe I've misunderstood but regarding this part: "We were there on Indian tiger hills because we are the real tigers. We gave 5000 lives in fighting terrorists so that you sleep well".

What's this about? Is this one army openly calling another army "terrorists"?

I think they forgot to press the return key and change the sentence.

 

[VCheng]

I think they forgot to press the return key and change the sentence.

Are you serious? No wonder PA is losing the public relations war. They need to try harder and polish up their act on several levels, proof reading and layout design being two areas as this sub-par poster effort demonstrates.