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I am talking about their notions of morality. If thousands of innocent tribals are killed by airstrikes of PAF then it is considered necessary collateral damages, but if they use "chemical weapons" then it would raise alarms as the very word is evil....and i am talking about consequences and response from pashtun population...no punjabi or mohajir care about deaths of pashtuns at the hands of faujis, just check the responses here, they are saying that all savage tribals are responsible for deaths of their precious beloved soldiers, tribals should be punished for it...
They dont realize that pakhtuns are in deep coma, if they wake up and realize what exactly is going on then it would be end of pakistan and two nation theory.

It would benefit you to keep your head on your shoulder and feet on the ground.....a few days earlier, a Pukhtoon, did try to knock some sense into you.....and if you are indeed a Pukhtoon, then i don't see you any different than any other Pakistani...otherwise it would help us if you do indeed go into a coma. !!
 
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Those generals represented army, nothing else. Ethnicity is a non-issue in army, it is fauji mindset which is common among all faujis. If pakhtun like @Abu Zolfiqar is in ISI or army and he is ordered to shoot down each and every member of his native village in para chinar, then he would carry out the mission without hesitation, he would be expelled from army if he refuses the orders.
Hyperion was saying that his uncle in PAF bombarded in his own village of waziristan....those pakhtuns who place pakhto above salary refuses such orders and simply leave the army job..they are labelled "desertors"....

Country before language or ethnicity... get tht into ur skull son!
One of my kiliwal, a sipahi left army for good reason, his officer was calling him names of mother and sister and he listened him silently...it was too much testing of his ghairat

Nobody abuses soldiers in the army.. and if they do,.. and its reported they get what they deserve.. i know a guy who slapped a soldier and got screwed coz of it.



And they are also nourishing talibans..it is deep game kid.

Son, they arent...
 
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Those generals represented army, nothing else. Ethnicity is a non-issue in army, it is fauji mindset which is common among all faujis. If pakhtun like @Abu Zolfiqar is in ISI or army and he is ordered to shoot down each and every member of his native village in para chinar, then he would carry out the mission without hesitation, he would be expelled from army if he refuses the orders.
Hyperion was saying that his uncle in PAF bombarded in his own village of waziristan....those pakhtuns who place pakhto above salary refuses such orders and simply leave the army job..they are labelled "desertors"....
One of my kiliwal, a sipahi left army for good reason, his officer was calling him names of mother and sister and he listened him silently...it was too much testing of his ghairat



And they are also nourishing talibans..it is deep game kid.

Where goes your "Ghairat", when same "Pakhtoons" blow up schools or lashed up "Pakhtoon Girls" or shoot a 14 year old "Pakhtoon Girl" or blow up schools for "Pashtoon Kids" or a "Ghairat mand Pashtoon" blow himself up in a busy market in Lahore killing 300 innocent, or lately have you seen the video of suicide attempt on IG FC 10 days ago. Where was your "Ghairat" when a "Pashtoon" blow himself when a "Pashtoon woman with her son" was also passing by. I can go on and on, but...

Its all upto "Ghairat" and the "Ghairat" is that the person remain loyal to his home or person which feeds him. Atleast one should have "Ghairat" to be "Namak Halal" to a country which is feeding 3 million "Ghairat mands" since last 35 years.
 
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We are fully confidant that PA will eliminate those morons from Tirah & may God bless these brave soldiers victory.
 
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http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/10/w...-new-perch-in-northern-pakistan.html?ref=asia

Taliban Defend New Perch in Northern Pakistan, Gaining Sway as Election Nears
By DECLAN WALSH
Published: April 9, 2013

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — When Taliban fighters swept into the Tirah Valley of northern Pakistan last month, grabbing a remote but strategic area that was previously known for criminal activity, Pakistan’s military seized a chance to bloody the insurgents before they dug in.

But the counteroffensive took a dismal turn over the past week, as the Taliban struck back with a combination of guerrilla tactics and dexterous tribal politics, defending their new perch and increasing their ability to disrupt Pakistan’s approaching election.

After five days of fighting, at least 26 soldiers, many from the elite commandos unit, have been killed, according to several senior security and tribal officials. Dozens of Taliban militants have also died, they said.

“Resistance is stiff,” said one of those officials in Peshawar, speaking on customary condition of anonymity.

The battle for Tirah, a mountain redoubt of steep walls backing onto the border with Afghanistan in the Khyber agency, highlights the complexity of the war that has slowly engulfed Pakistan’s tribal belt over the past five years.

While the army has faced stiff American criticism for its failure to crack down on extremists in North Waziristan who wage war and terrorism abroad, it is simultaneously engaged in bruising battle with the Pakistan Taliban in other corners of the tribal belt.

There, in an echo of British military campaigns against tribal fighters a century ago, the Taliban use their knowledge of the terrain and some adroit tribal negotiations to outwit a militarily superior enemy.

The Taliban fled into the Tirah Valley in mid-March after tough clashes with the army in the neighboring district of Orakzai. They surprised military officials by quickly vanquishing a pro-government militia stationed in the Tirah, and by forging an opportunistic alliance with a powerful local warlord, Mangal Bagh, who had previously fought the Taliban.

“It took us by surprise,” one senior official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity.

The army launched a two-pronged assault on Tirah last Friday. But it soon suffered heavy casualties, after troops from the elite Special Services Group commando unit ran into an ambush after clearing a village, a senior tribal official said. “Most of those killed so far are from the S.S.G.,” he said.

Since then the army has hit back hard, using artillery and helicopter gunship strikes. The army press office said Monday that 23 soldiers and 110 militants had been killed. Privately, officials put the militant death toll in the dozens.

The fighting has displaced an estimated 43,000 civilians, largely into neighboring tribal districts or the regional capital, Peshawar, where refugees have arrived with harrowing tales of flight. At least 10 elderly people and pregnant women died as they fled their homes, according to community leaders.

Suddenly, Mr. Bagh has become a rising star in the militant firmament, leaving NATO supply lines through Khyber agency — an area partly under his control — exposed to new attack. And the offensive has extended the Taliban’s reach across the northwest at a delicate time, as national elections approach.

The integrity of the May 11 poll was already in doubt across most of the tribal belt and parts of adjoining Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa Province, said Khalid Aziz, a former provincial chief secretary. He estimated that 41 of the 99 directly elected seats in the province could be affected by Taliban violence or intimidation.

A foothold in Tirah gives the Taliban powerful additional influence, he added: “Although they will not participate in this election, they will be playing politics.”

Until now the valley, which has little arable land, was best known as a center of smuggling, gun running and hashish production. In Peshawar, displaced farmers have spoken openly of their distress at potentially losing their hashish stocks, Mr. Aziz, the retired official, said.

“They told me they were in debt with the drug traffickers, and now they would not be able to repay them,” he said.

Back inside the valley, the army faces the tough task of dislodging the Taliban from the high ground. “But we cannot afford to leave the operation halfway through. It will have to be taken to its logical end,” one senior security official said.

Otherwise, he warned, the valley could become a new safe haven for Taliban fighters fleeing fighting in Afghanistan or other tribal areas. “They need a space to regroup and recognize,” he said. “Now they have got one.”

Ismail Khan contributed reporting from Peshawar, Pakistan.
 
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Where goes your "Ghairat", when same "Pakhtoons" blow up schools or lashed up "Pakhtoon Girls" or shoot a 14 year old "Pakhtoon Girl" or blow up schools for "Pashtoon Kids" or a "Ghairat mand Pashtoon" blow himself up in a busy market in Lahore killing 300 innocent, or lately have you seen the video of suicide attempt on IG FC 10 days ago. Where was your "Ghairat" when a "Pashtoon" blow himself when a "Pashtoon woman with her son" was also passing by. I can go on and on, but...

Its all upto "Ghairat" and the "Ghairat" is that the person remain loyal to his home or person which feeds him. Atleast one should have "Ghairat" to be "Namak Halal" to a country which is feeding 3 million "Ghairat mands" since last 35 years.

Those taliban monsters are ISI's childern and ISI made it sure that they are deviod of pashtunwali.
Haqqani network recruits from my area under supervision of ISI, they also recruit young boys and prepare them as suicide bombers to attack NATO and afghans...And they show them drawings of jannat and place ticket of jannat in their pockets...TTP also do the same, while afghan talibans and haqqani network who are with ISI also do the same....Pak army has destroyed and radicalized my beautiful pakhtun society, just for sake of so called greater national interests...
 
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This doesn't look good.
Either intel wasn't enough or lack of air-support and lack of coordination made PA loose such precious lives.
 
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Those taliban monsters are ISI's childern and ISI made it sure that they are deviod of pashtunwali.
Haqqani network recruits from my area under supervision of ISI, they also recruit young boys and prepare them as suicide bombers to attack NATO and afghans...And they show them drawings of jannat and place ticket of jannat in their pockets...TTP also do the same, while afghan talibans and haqqani network who are with ISI also do the same....Pak army has destroyed and radicalized my beautiful pakhtun society, just for sake of so called greater national interests...


If ISI was such a monster, we would have seen Mullah Radio and Hakeemullah Mehsud head on plate.
 
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I am talking about their notions of morality. If thousands of innocent tribals are killed by airstrikes of PAF then it is considered necessary collateral damages, but if they use "chemical weapons" then it would raise alarms as the very word is evil....and i am talking about consequences and response from pashtun population...no punjabi or mohajir care about deaths of pashtuns at the hands of faujis, just check the responses here, they are saying that all savage tribals are responsible for deaths of their precious beloved soldiers, tribals should be punished for it...
They dont realize that pakhtuns are in deep coma, if they wake up and realize what exactly is going on then it would be end of pakistan and two nation theory.

What else do you expect and why do you care? These people were cheering the same way when Pakfaujzindabad was raping Bengali women and pillaging their villages. They distribute sweets when a Napoleon defeats the heavily armed civilian government. They call Balcohs traitors although those poor guys have been forced to take weapons in their hands as it is the only way to get your rights in Pakfaujistan. Most of them have no respect for the minorities. You know what your status can be this country if god forbid you belong to Ahmedia community, they even make fun of Hindus when they are forced to take refuge in a neighbouring country and call them traitors.

Pashtuns are paying a heavy price for the creation of this country, and I am afraid the worse has yet to come. On one hand they are being bombarded by Americans because Musharraf Napoleon allowed the remnants of Al Qaeda and Taliban to take refuge in the tribal areas, and on the other hand they are being targeted by Pakfaujzindabad because they are just doing what Pakfaujzindabad taught them to do. I am talking about the whole J1hadi industry that was raised to create gun fodder - when the generals were enjoying their drinks in their big bangalows and their children getting education in western universities, these poor children were waging jihaid and dying like flies. A lot of blood will shed before the things settle down.
 
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This doesn't look good.
Either intel wasn't enough or lack of air-support and lack of coordination made PA loose such precious lives.
I had my saying on this earlier. I don't question the Intel, I am sure of it.
This doesn't look good.
Either intel wasn't enough or lack of air-support and lack of coordination made PA loose such precious lives.

I agree to the casualties being extraordinarily high. I would have first looked towards the planners, the Brigadier in charge.

However, there are other factors that should be taken into account. The strategic importance of militants, their weapons and numbers. If, God forbid, the valley is occupied by the TTP; then Kurram agency and Khyber agency would fall vulnerable to militant dominance - let alone Peshawar which stands at other end of Tirah.

If there were intelligence tip-offs of unusual activity in large numbers, this explains it. They have earlier tried to occupy the valley several times earlier too. This time, coming in large numbers, would've required a quick response with limited time for proper planning. The battle broke-out at night when the enemy fighters were already prepared and held their superior positions.

Another point to note is that Tirah lies along the Afghan border, where the supply of weapon and fighters is both undisturbed. The border should be bombarded break away the supply-line and giving less bullshit to take care of at frontline.


This is the terrain you are fighting in. It will not help Cobra operate at their maximum potential:

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... or may be outside forces are amplifying the strength of the Taliban by covert support?
There is no doubt on the support from across the border, but boots in the hot-zone is not possible.
 
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There is no doubt on the support from across the border, but boots in the hot-zone is not possible.

It does not have to be boot, but recce intel about troop movements would be crucial in planning ambushes such as the one our troops walked into.
 
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It does not have to be boot, but recce intel about troop movements would be crucial in planning ambushes such as the one our troops walked into.
The operation was carried after Intel to PA. I believe they have strong and dominating positions set-up, waiting for army to arrive. If you have seen ISPR movies, you would be familiar with the term 'Isse acha qabrastan innko kidhar milay ga'. This time they totally came on it this time.
 
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The strategy seems to be to first take the mountain tops on both sides, then advance down simultaneously from both sides toward the deep valley. Attack from above.
 
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I had my saying on this earlier. I don't question the Intel, I am sure of it.

There is no doubt on the support from across the border, but boots in the hot-zone is not possible.

Question is: Why didn't PA took control at north of valley (High mountains) which is actual boundary with Afghanistan at distance of some KM from Tirah? Rest of 3 sides are in control of PA and only way to get support is from north which also not easy to cross or getting support.
It will good if someone post assumed position map of fighting parties.
 
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