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Operation Moshtarak Thread: Afghan flag hoisted over Marjah

Being a Pakistani you should be more bothered of the TTP than about the Afghani people and why the scums like Mullah Omar should be allowed to take them back to the 15 th Century.

I am first Muslim then Pakistani , the idealogy of Pakistan is more important because on this basis we got independence,TTP is terrorist fighting with Muslims Army but AT fighting for liberation of their home land , why you dont understand this simple reason.
 
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How Afghans see Operation Moshtarak
The western media may trumpet the latest joint military push, but in Afghanistan it is widely viewed as a conspiracy

Nushin Arbabzadah
guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 16 February 2010 14.30 GMT
Article history
Media coverage of the joint military operation by Afghan and Nato forces in southern Afghanistan has catapulted the previously obscure Marjah and Nade Ali districts to worldwide fame.

The operation's name uses the word moshtarak, which means "together" in Dari, and – as the first major operation conducted in Afghanistan since President Barack Obama came to power – the prominence it has been given in world news is deliberate.

But the international coverage is in sharp contrast to the way it is regarded on the ground in Afghanistan. There, Operation Moshtarak is viewed through the prism of ethnic paranoia, national self-doubt and conspiracy theories: three key factors which have prevented the country's media from representing the Marjah and Nade Ali campaign as a united Afghan effort against a common Taliban enemy.

Reading between the lines of editorials in Afghanistan's opposition press, one cannot help but sense that the opposition is not interested in the successful completion of the operation. After all, military success in Helmand province would amount to the Kabul government regaining the legitimacy that it has lost as a result of the fraud-ridden 2009 presidential election. The opposition has little interest in such victory, so media outlets critical of the government have published editorials that belittled the operation, casting doubt over the strategic importance of Marjah and Nade Ali, and highlighting the issue of civilian casualties there.

Operation Moshtarak was launched to symbolise a new spirit of co-operation and Afghan ownership of the war against the Taliban. But on the ground in Afghanistan, it has become the embodiment of Afghans' internal struggles with themselves. Ironically, moshtarak – a spirit of togetherness – is exactly what is missing in the local media coverage of the operation.

The Daily Mandagar, a paper which had previously been banned after allegations of blasphemy, put its criticism in a characteristically blunt manner. It posed the question: are Marjah and Nade Ali really such strategically important districts to merit this concentration of efforts? The paper added that the local population themselves were astounded by the significance given to their region and doubted that the deployment of 15,000 troops was necessary to force out the Taliban.

Perhaps anticipating such criticism, the pro-government paper Anis had a ready answer to this question. It said that even though Marjah and Nade Ali were of no obvious strategic importance, the operation there was of symbolic value as it offered a chance to test the Afghan army's skills against the Taliban. The paper added that the operation's outcome would define the future of the war.

While both government and opposition papers denied that Marjah and Nade Ali had been chosen for clear, military and strategic reasons, the Taliban themselves had no such doubts. Judging by an interview with the Taliban commander in charge of Marjah, the movement regards the operation as part of an international imperialist conspiracy which renders Marjah and Nade Ali of special military and strategic importance. The interview with Mullah Abdul Rezaq Akhund, the Taliban commander in Marjah, was conducted in Pashto and posted on Cheragh Daily website.

The interview shows that seen through the Taliban's conspiracy prism, Helmand's geographic location gives the province strategic importance. In the interview, Akhund listed four primary reasons which, according to the Taliban, explain why Helmand is of great geo-strategic importance to Nato. The Taliban commander alleged that the US and the UK intend to set up surveillance centres along the border to collect Iranian military and intelligence data. Akhund further alleged that since Helmand is also close to Gwadar, a Pakistani port which is of economic significance to China, controlling Helmand allows Washington to curb the influence of its main economic rival in the region.

He then went on to allege that the US and the UK were also interested in taking control of the drug production laboratories located in Helmand in a bid to profit from the international heroin business. The fourth reason, as alleged by Akhund, is Helmand's uranium resources. In the Taliban commander's own words: "According to eyewitnesses, British forces are bringing a large amount of equipment to the area and have started extracting uranium there and British transport planes land and take off from this area several times every day."

Hence, seen in the terms of the international conspiracy theory as expressed by Akhund, US rivalry with Iran and China, plus uranium and the heroin trade are the reasons why military operations are currently being carried out in Marjah and Nade Ali districts.

According to anecdotal evidence, Mullah Akhund's views reflect those of a majority in Afghanistan. The conspiracy theory comes in variations but common to all versions is a denial of the fact that the violence has local roots and that the problem is self-created and self-perpetuated. It is this denial that is moshtarak, or shared, by all parties, from the government to the opposition and the Taliban.

How Afghans see Operation Moshtarak | Nushin Arbabzadah | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk
 
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Taliban fighters who were won over by Nato

Operation Moshtarak, which means "together" in the Dari language, involves more than 15,000 Nato and Afghan troops.

The idea is to clear the area of insurgents and allow forces to work with local institutions to bolster reconstruction and provide support for the rule of law.

That includes trying to win over moderate members of the Taliban and draw them into the political process.
BBC News - Taliban fighters who were won over by Nato
 
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Pakistan's push for new role in Afghanistan

Afghanistan's punishing war is entering a new phase and Pakistan has made it clear it can and must play a leading role.

The sudden significant capture of Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar, second in charge in the Taliban hierarchy, comes at a crucial point.

Talk of negotiation is now taking centre stage, a strategy in parallel to a powerful military assault against Taliban strongholds in southern Afghanistan.

"There has been a change in Pakistan's attitude," said Pakistani author Ahmed Rashid, who has written extensively about the close links between Pakistan's military intelligence, the ISI, and Taliban leaders.

"Pakistan now wants to dominate any kind of dialogue that takes place."

Frustration
Mullah Baradar, reported to have been picked up by Pakistani and US intelligence agents in the southern Pakistani city of Karachi, may have become too independent.

Sources in Kabul say he and his envoys have been involved in secret talks with the Afghan president in Kabul, his representatives in southern Afghanistan and outside the country.

One senior Afghan official who, like others, is not commenting publicly for now, said: "This may be good for public opinion but, for us, it can have a negative impact.

"It was easier for us to talk to him."

A Western source involved in the process expressed frustration this channel was now being exposed and, for the moment, stopped.

More arrests have now been reported including two Taliban "shadow governors" who reported to Mullah Baradar.

Reports from Kandahar last month speculated that Mullah Baradar would soon be arrested because of growing tensions with Mullah Omar.

The two men have been close confidants. The Taliban leader had appointed him as one of his two main deputies after the movement was ousted from power in 2001.

Mullah Baradar rose to become the key military commander as Mullah Omar found it increasingly difficult to operate in the open.

"Pakistan has accomplished two objectives," remarked Lt Col Tony Shaffer, who served as an intelligence officer in Afghanistan in 2003, and is now at the Center for Advanced Defense Studies in Washington.

"They've shown us in the West they're willing to co-operate and they've taken out someone they didn't control."

Pakistan has always denied senior Taliban leaders are living on its soil, saying they go back and forth across the porous border with Afghanistan.

Key asset
Unlike the Bush administration, Barack Obama's team has been urging Pakistan, privately and publicly, to take action against the Taliban leadership and their sanctuaries in the tribal areas, as well as in cities like Quetta and Karachi.

Since 2001 the Pakistan military has moved against al-Qaeda and more recently, Pakistani Taliban leaders. But it's long made it clear it won't move against the Afghan Taliban and other powerful Afghan commanders linked to the insurgency.

Islamabad has regarded its long-standing Taliban connections as a key asset in neighbouring Afghanistan.

Now that the Afghan government and its Nato allies have made reintegration of low-level Taliban fighters - and reconciliation with more senior commanders - a key priority, Pakistan wants to play a role in bringing the Taliban to the negotiating table.

Pakistan's army chief, Gen Ashfaq Kayani, has been indicating their readiness.

Sphere of influence
In a rare press briefing in February, he made it clear "we have opened all doors" to co-operation with Nato and Afghan forces in Afghanistan.

But he also asserted "our strategic paradigm has to be realised". For Pakistan, this means a friendly Afghanistan that is part of its sphere of influence - and where India, still regarded as a threat, plays no major role.

Washington seems to accept Pakistan can be a broker.

US Special Representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan Richard Holbrooke, on a visit to Kabul, told BBC's Persian TV: "Pakistan's ISI can play a role in negotiations and I support that role.

"Pakistan has an influence in this area and has a legitimate security interest."

The former ISI head, retired Gen Hamid Gul, talked about this relationship with his trademark bluntness. Speaking to me in an interview on the BBC's Newshour programme, he said: "America is history, Karzai is history, the Taliban are the future."

Pakistan, he warned, "would be unwise to cut all contacts and goodwill with the future leaders of Afghanistan".

A growing role for Islamabad causes unease in Kabul. President Karzai and key members of his team have repeatedly criticised the role of the ISI in providing sanctuary to Taliban leaders.

'Exaggerating'

The president has made it clear he wants any reconciliation to be an Afghan-led and controlled process.
Pakistani Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir (left) with US envoy to Afghanistan and Pakistan Richard Holbrooke
The US is hailing its relationship with Pakistan

There's been no official announcement from Kabul yet to Mullah Baradar's capture.

A few years ago, Kabul opened contacts with another senior Taliban leader, Mullah Mansoor Dadullah, who had also fallen out with Mullah Omar, only to have Pakistan capture him in early 2008. At the time, a senior Afghan intelligence official expressed anger and dismay.

Dutch journalist Bette Dam, author of a recent book on Hamid Karzai, has written of years of contacts between the president and Mullah Baradar, who are both from the Popalzai tribe.

Mullah Baradar is said to have come to the rescue of Hamid Karzai when he was threatened by Taliban fighters in the southern province of Uruzgan after the 9/11 attacks.

On her most recent visit to Uruzgan in December, Ms Dam said that she had been informed that Mullah Baradar made a visit to Kabul last year.

Afghans in the province - the birthplace of Mullah Baradar - also spoke of "how powerful and increasingly independent he had become in the Taliban movement, establishing his own committees and charities, and operating though his own tribal networks".

The question now is what impact will his arrest have on any future negotiations with the Taliban and on Pakistan's role in this process.

Biggest blow
Islamabad is being hailed in Washington for its co-operation with the US.

For the Americans, this success comes only weeks after the CIA suffered its biggest blow in decades. It lost seven operatives when a double agent detonated a suicide vest at their base in the eastern province of Khost.

But many key details of this latest operation are still unclear. Reports are now emerging that Mullah Baradar may have been detained earlier than the dates cited in the original story in the New York Times.

It's also still not clear how much involvement US intelligence had in the raid and how much access they have to this valuable source, who has an enormous store of knowledge about the movement, including their contacts with the ISI.

One Western source in Kabul said that the Americans were exaggerating the level of co-operation.

US intelligence officer Col Shaffer argues that what happens next is of key importance.

"We should watch very closely what happens," he remarked.

BBC News - Pakistan's push for new role in Afghanistan
 
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Operation Moshtarak, and ANA problems/ANP Update
BruceR. at Flit discusses them, pointing out many are of ISAF's own making:

1) Marja: not going too well

The ISAF move into Marja, in Helmand province, which Canadian OMLT personnel are participating in, seems to be turning into more of the usual Afghan story. WashPost:
The civilian team's most important immediate task will be to assist the newly appointed district governor, Haji Zahir, who recently returned to Afghanistan after 15 years in Germany. Zahir plans to make his first trip to Marja in the coming days...

2) Marja: not going too well, 2: the ANA performance

The ANA in Helmand is not acquitting itself well in the eyes or Marines or accompanying reporters:
Statements from Kabul have said the Afghan military is planning the missions and leading both the fight and the effort to engage with Afghan civilians caught between the Taliban and the newly arrived troops.

But that assertion conflicts with what is visible in the field...

...They have become our door-kickers. And for that they don't need their own leaders: in fact, stronger leadership on their part would now be an even greater inconvenience to us than the lack of it. Note how the story is about a platoon of Iraqis joins a company of Marines and then is split up among its squads, not treated in any way as an extra, discrete platoon. So what exactly is that Captain commanding it, Amanullah, leading? Yes, he may be an unimpressive leader, but was he unimpressive before he was deprived of any real authority, or because of it? And how exactly now will he reclaim it in the eyes of his men as well as his own mind, short of passively resisting Marine authority until they are rotated somewhere else?..

Chivers and the Times portray this as an ANA failing: "officers and soldiers follow behind the Americans and do what they are told." But that is what we demanded they do. Why is it not an ISAF failing that they could not give this operation, or a significant part of it, to an Afghan battalion or higher level organization with imbedded enablers, working in their own box? Would they have done things differently? Certainly. Badly? Probably...
Update: Excerpts from a story by an American ANP trainer on the still serious problems on that front:

Afghan mess bigger than we thought
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At the operational level, where I worked with the Afghan National Police (ANP) for 15 months, things look a lot worse.

Operationally, the effort is broken. Assets are misdirected, poorly managed and misused. Graft and corruption in the Afghan forces are endemic, and coalition forces unwittingly enable that corruption. Let's break that into two parts:

Misdirected, mismanaged and misused:

There are several related facets to this issue. Aid agencies, nongovernmental agencies and coalition state and defense departments have all poured money and materiel into the country in poorly coordinated efforts. The Afghan National Army (ANA) has received orders of magnitude more money than the ANP. In any counterinsurgency effort, the police play a vital role in maintaining the rule of law at the local level, but the Afghan police force is pathetically underresourced and undermanned.

It is misemployed. At a meeting of regional police commanders, one commander complained about the use of his police to fight the Taliban. The police are neither trained nor armed adequately to fight the Taliban. He complained about orders to accomplish an army mission...

...length of tour for those mentoring ministry-level efforts is simply too short. Six to eight months is barely enough time to gain an understanding of system dynamics, let alone effect meaningful change. The attitude this engenders in the Afghans is "wait and see." They are reluctant to embrace recommendations from the current mentor because he will change in six months - so they push back out of wariness and fatigue...
 
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No matter how much you claim the sky is falling Fundamentalist. The end result will be a Taliban defeat in Marjah. And with the establishment of a major ISAF base there soon. The Taliban won't be returning to Govern. :yahoo:

Whats more their defeat will be further proof they do not enjoy divine protection.
 
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No matter how much you claim the sky is falling Fundamentalist. The end result will be a Taliban defeat in Marjah. And with the establishment of a major ISAF base there soon. The Taliban won't be returning to Govern. :yahoo:

Whats more their defeat will be further proof they do not enjoy divine protection.

First deserve then desire , you dont have courage to accept your defeat in nine years of war.I am thinking who will be the next fool after ISAF defeat to send their forces in Afghanistan:lol:
 
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Swat: a model for US generals in Afghanistan

* Frequent visits by US generals highlight success of military operation
* Americans looking to replicate ‘Swat model’ in Afghanistan


By Iqbal Khattak

PESHAWAR: From US National Security Adviser James Jones to Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Admiral Mike Mullen, no senior American military dignitary’s visit to Pakistan is complete without a trip to the former Taliban stronghold of Swat.

Less than 24 hours after a suicide attack ripped through Mingora, US Gen David Petraeus’ visit to Swat on Tuesday is a testament to the importance Washington attaches to the “successful Swat model” of an operation against the Taliban.

“These visits help the Americans understand how the Taliban were defeated and how the same model will work in Afghanistan,” said former military officer Brig (r) Mehmood Shah of American generals’ frequent trips to Swat after the district was “liberated” from the clutches of the Taliban last year.

Security experts say it is absolutely beyond doubt that the situation in Swat has taken a “180-degree turn” compared to the pre-May 2009 period.

While simple military briefings can be arranged at the General Headquarters for American generals and other high-ranking dignitaries, it is believed physical presence in the former Taliban stronghold gives the visiting dignitaries a true feeling of victory over the Taliban in testing terrain like Swat.

So what is the Swat model? Experts say the model gave the military a new strategic advantage in flushing out armed groups holding densely populated urban areas without causing civilian casualties and as little damage as possible to public and private properties.

While more than two million civilians were displaced amid the Swat operation, they returned home three months later, with the Taliban forced out of urban and rural areas.

The successful execution of the offensive encouraged the Americans to replicate the Swat model in Afghanistan’s Helmand province, where a 15,000 strong force of US and Afghan troops launched ‘Operation Moshtarak’ on February 9 – the first coordinated and serious anti-militant operation in Afghanistan since the Taliban regime there was overthrown in 2001.

“They are good for us as well, as it gives us opportunities to sell our model worldwide. The Americans may also feel good when they are standing in an area previously held by militants ... it gives them the feeling that victory over the Taliban is possible,” said a military officer.

The officer said the Americans “now try to understand what army chief Gen Ashfaq Kayani is saying can be tried in Afghanistan”. He said any acknowledgement by Washington of Pakistan’s “legitimate national interests” in Afghanistan could bring the two armies closer.

“Just listening [to news] or reading about the Swat model may not help you understand the ground situation ... physical presence in the area is essential,” said the officer, who has
years of experience in the war against militancy.

Operation Rah-e-Nijat in South Waziristan is an extension of the Swat model, and results so far have been encouraging – with the ‘clear, hold and develop’ strategy apparently working against the Taliban.

The US also appears to be believing Gen Kayani, who says that successful execution of an operation in the Mehsud areas of South Waziristan would ultimately lead to a major assault on the group’s last strongholds in North Waziristan, before the elimination of militancy from Pakistani soil.

Meanwhile, it is yet to be seen how successful ‘Operation Moshtarak’ would be, to allow comparisons to be drawn and determine if simple replication of a model can lead to victory against insurgents.
 
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No matter how much you claim the sky is falling Fundamentalist. The end result will be a Taliban defeat in Marjah. And with the establishment of a major ISAF base there soon. The Taliban won't be returning to Govern. :yahoo:

Whats more their defeat will be further proof they do not enjoy divine protection.
One of the things is, Mushtarak would be a Nato victory militarily was a given. What wasn't a given were the three goals:

Clear, Hold and Rebuild.

Clear - Check

Hold? Judging from the scores of media reports out there, it all depends upon Nato's ability to win hearts and minds and according to these reports, thats not gone all too well:

http://www.inthenews.co.uk/news/world/south-asia/civilian-deaths-undermine-nato-s-battle-for-hearts-and-minds-$1360554.htm

Civilian deaths mounting in Marjah offensive / The Christian Science Monitor - CSMonitor.com

Another thing is, the Taliban MO has been to not engage in battle. Intel reports that they WILL regroup in Uruzgan were out even before Mushtarak happened and thats what's happened.... And the 2000 troops patrolling Uruzgan are leaving even after US pressure?

Its so messed up.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/25/opinion/25thur3.html

Not to mention, that unlike the US forces, the Dutch in Uruzgan had already won the hearts and minds as they focused upon integration with the people.

Nato announces next offensive - Kandahar.

Makes sense? AGAIN they are falling into the trap of over extending the war. The US generals need to have a good hard read at the article Fatman posted. The John Woo, guns blazing in both hands style isn't going to work against the Taliban.

Clearing Check.

Holding?
 
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The ISAF needs to put forward at least 100,000 troops to control Afghanistan for like 5-10 years and keep picking the Taliban off from each area they regroup to.

ORRR

Negotiate << Which equals defeat.
 
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I am first Muslim then Pakistani , the idealogy of Pakistan is more important because on this basis we got independence,TTP is terrorist fighting with Muslims Army but AT fighting for liberation of their home land , why you dont understand this simple reason.

And what if the Ideology of Pakistan changes? Do you then change with it? Pakistan supported the Afghan Taliban originally for Geo political reasons. Not becuase they necessarily agreed with their extreme religious views. They knew from the beginning that it was a risky move that could come back to bite them. So if Pakistan at a later time decides it is not in their best interest any longer to support the Afghan Taliban. Do they not have the right to do that? Also geographical borders do not delineate Ideology. A Taliban is a Taliban no matter where they live. they all seek to spread their ideology, advance their base of power and kill anyone (mainly civilians) that stand in their way.
 
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One of the things is, Mushtarak would be a Nato victory militarily was a given. What wasn't a given were the three goals:

Clear, Hold and Rebuild.

Clear - Check

Hold? Judging from the scores of media reports out there, it all depends upon Nato's ability to win hearts and minds and according to these reports, thats not gone all too well:

http://www.inthenews.co.uk/news/world/south-asia/civilian-deaths-undermine-nato-s-battle-for-hearts-and-minds-$1360554.htm

Civilian deaths mounting in Marjah offensive / The Christian Science Monitor - CSMonitor.com

Another thing is, the Taliban MO has been to not engage in battle. Intel reports that they WILL regroup in Uruzgan were out even before Mushtarak happened and thats what's happened.... And the 2000 troops patrolling Uruzgan are leaving even after US pressure?

Its so messed up.

Editorial - The Dutch Retreat From Afghanistan - NYTimes.com

Not to mention, that unlike the US forces, the Dutch in Uruzgan had already won the hearts and minds as they focused upon integration with the people.

Nato announces next offensive - Kandahar.

Makes sense? AGAIN they are falling into the trap of over extending the war. The US generals need to have a good hard read at the article Fatman posted. The John Woo, guns blazing in both hands style isn't going to work against the Taliban.

Clearing Check.

Holding?

God save us from the evil of the taliban. It looks like that the Taliban in Afgahistan and Pakistan are applying the same tactics. in both of these countires it is the civilians who are the victims.
 
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God save us from the evil of the taliban. It looks like that the Taliban in Afgahistan and Pakistan are applying the same tactics. in both of these countires it is the civilians who are the victims.
I don't think that the Taliban are unchallengeable. Pakistan has shown that it can be done with much much less resources at our disposal. Perhaps thats why it worked.

The US should be moving to Uruzgan from Marjah, but its after some sort of a symbolic victory and hence is moving to Kandahar. Pakistan did nothing spectacular but chased them around for a while. cornering them in the middle of the Waziristans.

If we were following the US formula we would have opened a front one day in the South and the once in the North Waziristan. The war should be kept manageable, its not just a question of resources, its a question of focus as well.

It is all to show the smaller Taliban leaders that the Taliban can be attacked anywhere in Afghanistan and major show of force might scare them into negotiating mixed with the 500 million dollars of bribe money waiting for them.

It CAN work... But its a long shot.
 
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US forces establish three new camps along Durand Line

LAHORE: US security forces have built three new base camps along the Chaman border to monitor the Pakistan-Afghanistan transit trade, a private TV channel reported on Thursday.

According to sources, for the first time since the overthrow of Taliban US forces have taken control of the border area along the Chaman crossing to monitor the growing influence of Afghan and Pakistani Taliban in the area. Afghan sources said that US forces have established the base camps only five kilometres from Pakistani territory, where they are training recruits of the Afghan National Army. The US security forces have taken over an important checkpost at Dosti Baab, the main transit point with Pakistan from where fifteen to twenty thousand people travel and trade in each other's territory. daily times monitor
 
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