Open Discussion: Myanmar and Bangladesh Armed Force

[Aung Zaya]

Please read carefully the news below to know that the ship is carrying C-802. In case if it is carrying other type of missile, we will have to check out if a revised version of SHORD FM-90 has been fitted in an another ship different from BNS Osman. from @bluesky.

12:00 AM, May 13, 2008 / LAST MODIFIED: 12:00 AM, May 13, 2008
Bangladesh Navy successfully test fires long range missile

Unb, Ctg

Bangladesh Navy yesterday successfully test fired C-802 missile in the Bay of Bengal, following an upgrade to the missile system with the assistance of a Chinese technical team, officials said.

“BNS Osman could attain this glorious level of achievement after two months of laborious attendance by the Chinese technical team and ship staff,” said an ISPR release.

This is the first instance BNS Osman, commissioned on May 4, 1989 as the only missile frigate, fired long-range ship-to-ship C-802 missile, which is capable of destroying any target within 120 kilometers.

Chief of the Naval Staff Vice-Admiral Sarwar Jahan Nizam expressed his heartiest thanks to the government of China as well as all Chinese delegation members on behalf of the Bangladesh government.

Principal Staff Officer Lt Gen Masududdin Chowdhury said the upgradation programme is “part of the government policy”.

Commodore Commanding of BN Flotilla Commodore HR Bhuiyan, Commodore Superintendent Dockyard Commodore Jasim Uddin Bhuiyan, and Chinese Defense Attache senior Colonel Ju Dewu, among others, were present.

Sorry, for the typing mistake. The ship in the picture was carrying C-802 or C-803, and not C-302 or-303. FM-90s have also been inducted, but, as Short Range Air Defense System or SHORD. These are not on ships, but are placed on land. Please do not get confused. BD military has alreaday inducted both types of missiles already.

well... that's FM-90 N SAM... ask other BD members

 

[Penguin]

Fm-90 capability against sea skimming path profile of say C-802A is probably quite poor. It (FM-90) is no Barak 8, thats for sure....not to mention the sensor profile on the BNS Bangabandhu is not a really top tier one.

Lets ask
@AUSTERLITZ and @Penguin for their input.

Thales DA08 (SPQ-501/RAWS03) E/F band (S-band) 2D radar for medium- to long-range air and surface surveillance.
While not the latest, certainly not a poor set. Specs: https://www.forecastinternational.com/archive/disp_old_pdf.cfm?ARC_ID=787
Although navies has started to replace it, it is till widely used. See e.g. http://www.thales7seas.com/html_2014/product206.html

[will be editting this post with further info]

 

[Nilgiri]

Thales DA08 (SPQ-501/RAWS03) E/F band (S-band) 2D radar for medium- to long-range air and surface surveillance.
While not the latest, certainly not a poor set. Specs: https://www.forecastinternational.com/archive/disp_old_pdf.cfm?ARC_ID=787
Although navies has started to replace it, it is till widely used. See e.g. http://www.thales7seas.com/html_2014/product206.html

[will be editting this post with further info]

Thing is I dont think the older Thales sets are that good at performing against supersonic sea skimmers compared to the newer generations. "Poor" was directed more at the SAM system rather than the radar itself....mostly because I do not have much idea on the real world performance of the FM-90....but no major competent foreign navy seems to be in a rush to acquire it for their platforms.

What is your opinion on that...and do you have any data to show what its hypothetical performance would be against a Kh35 or C-802 saturation attack....in concert with the chinese SAM on board the bangabandhu....compared to say a newer generation radar and SAM system.

 

[alaungphaya]

Thing is I dont think the older Thales sets are that good at performing against supersonic sea skimmers compared to the newer generations. By poor was directed more at the SAM system rather than the radar itself....mostly because I do not have much idea on the real world specs of the FM-90....but no major competent foreign navy seems to be in a rush to acquire it for their platforms.

What is your opinion on that...and do you have any data to show what its hypothetical performance would be against a Kh35 or C-802 saturation attack....in concert with the chinese SAM on board the bangabandhu....compared to say a newer generation radar and SAM system.

They also have their CIWS system though so it's two lines of defence. To theoretically knock out the Banghabandhu it'll probably need a coordinated attack from air and sea.

 

[Nilgiri]

They also have their CIWS system though so it's two lines of defence. To theoretically knock out the Banghabandhu it'll probably need a coordinated attack from air and sea.

Yah but CIWS is really a last line of defence when all else fails. Most of the good ones these days are decent at taking out 1 or 2 incoming bogeys that get past the SAM...but anything more and they tend to get overloaded.

Its why the hallmark for me of a ships defence regards its radar and sensors, fire control system and its SAM system. CIWS is kind of a default thing thats there that you take into account as a smaller extra once you've figured out what you need to deal with the heavy defences.

 

[Nike]

8 fm-90 will be shot to bring down Myanmar's most capable fighters....View attachment 319763:roasted:

FM-90 is a Chinese version of Crotale missile and actually your Type 345 Fire control radar for your FM-90 have short range detection ability 30 to 40 km at most.....

 

[UKBengali]

Thing is I dont think the older Thales sets are that good at performing against supersonic sea skimmers compared to the newer generations. "Poor" was directed more at the SAM system rather than the radar itself....mostly because I do not have much idea on the real world performance of the FM-90....but no major competent foreign navy seems to be in a rush to acquire it for their platforms.

What is your opinion on that...and do you have any data to show what its hypothetical performance would be against a Kh35 or C-802 saturation attack....in concert with the chinese SAM on board the bangabandhu....compared to say a newer generation radar and SAM system.

I know this was directed at Penguin but allow me to answer since we are talking about a BD ship here:

The FM-90 is a modernised version of the Chinese copy of the Crotale. It is specifically designed to take on sea-skimming cruise missiles. It would have little difficulty knocking out the cruise missiles fired by the Myanmarese but the problem is that there are only 8 missiles in total, only 2 targets can be engaged at any one time and also the short 15 km range of the missiles. I guess with the CIWs, the Ulsan class frigate could fend off around 4-6 missiles but any more and it will be overwhelmed.

Currently BD cannot defend it's ships against a Myanmarese air-attack but things will radically change in the next 5 years when 3-4 squadrons of 4+ generation fighters and 2 modern frigates are procured into the BD military.

 

[ghost250]

for army..

FN16,QW18,fm90s r there..but not sure about LY60D..

 

[Nike]

I know this was directed at Penguin but allow me to answer since we are talking about a BD ship here:

The FM-90 is a modernised version of the Chinese copy of the Crotale. It is specifically designed to take on sea-skimming cruise missiles. It would have little difficulty knocking out the cruise missiles fired by the Myanmarese but the problem is that there are only 8 missiles in total, only 2 targets can be engaged at any one time and also the short 15 km range of the missiles. I guess with the CIWs, the Ulsan class frigate could fend off around 4-6 missiles but any more and it will be overwhelmed.

Currently BD cannot defend it's ships against a Myanmarese air-attack but things will radically change in the next 5 years when 3-4 squadrons of 4+ generation fighters and 2 modern frigates are procured into the BD military.

let me get straight here

3 to 4 squadrons of fighter is around 48 to 72 fighter, the average prices for modern 4 gen fighter is around 55 million to 115 million US dollar price tag (from the largely cheaper SAAB Gripen C/D to the omnipotent yet expensive Rafale). To procure such large number of fighter you will need around 2,64 billion US dollar to whopping 9 billion US dollar (depending on the fighter you bought). And that's not alone, to procure such large number BD need to revamp her Airbase and training facilities and not to mention to upgrade and rebuilt her training school, as we all know the trainer fighter BD had is insufficient in number to train the needed pilots to manning such large number of fighter. And hence u need to double your efforts to built your training facility and then thats mean more money to be throwing at. The problems is not stop to there, BD as far as i know only had limited infrastructure to policing and managing the traffic of their Air Forces units (Air Traffic Controller and MATC), to upgrade them and directed your flight units efficiently you need to build more Airforward Base Controller and Ground Radar Station Unit, that's mean more money to built those facilities. My best guess, BD need at least 4 to 8 billion US dollar to getting another 2 decent 4 gen squadrons, and more time (around 8 to 15 years depending on your resolve) to built the all needed infrastructure and train the pilots and all of the Ground Crew.

Frankly, neither Myanmar or Bangladesh, at this moment had the capacity to raise such large number of fighter squadrons in near time. Both of you need time and more money to throw at

 

[UKBengali]

let me get straight here

3 to 4 squadrons of fighter is around 48 to 72 fighter, the average prices for modern 4 gen fighter is around 55 million to 115 million US dollar price tag (from the largely cheaper SAAB Gripen C/D to the omnipotent yet expensive Rafale). To procure such large number of fighter you will need around 2,64 billion US dollar to whopping 9 billion US dollar (depending on the fighter you bought). And that's not alone, to procure such large number BD need to revamp her Airbase and training facilities and not to mention to upgrade and rebuilt her training school, as we all know the trainer fighter BD had is insufficient in number to train the needed pilots to manning such large number of fighter. And hence u need to double your efforts to built your training facility and then thats mean more money to be throwing at. The problems is not stop to there, BD as far as i know only had limited infrastructure to policing and managing the traffic of their Air Forces units (Air Traffic Controller and MATC), to upgrade them and directed your flight units efficiently you need to build more Airforward Base Controller and Ground Radar Station Unit, that's mean more money to built those facilities. My best guess, BD need at least 4 to 8 billion US dollar to getting another 2 decent 4 gen squadrons, and more time (around 8 to 15 years depending on your resolve) to built the all needed infrastructure and train the pilots and all of the Ground Crew.

Frankly, neither Myanmar or Bangladesh, at this moment had the capacity to raise such large number of fighter squadrons in near time. Both of you need time and more money to throw at

Argue with the government of BD as that is the plan. 4 squadrons by 2021 and 10 squadrons by 2030 is "Forces Goal 2030".

As regards trainers, 9 K-8s and 16 YAK-130 are either delivered or will be soon. This is plenty to train 3-4 squadrons of pilots. These trainers were ordered to prepare the ground for large numbers of modern fighters

You also have not taken into account that BD already has 8 Mig-29 and so getting the Mig-35 which shares the same basic airframe wont be a big deal. SU-30 will be harder and more expensive to operate so my guess is that BD will go for 4 squadrons if it chooses Mig-35 and only 3 squadrons if it goes for SU-30.

Funding wont be too much of an issue if BD is prepared to wait till 2021 as currently a large chunk of the procurement budget is going towards Navy and in 2-3 years time, the focus can be on air-force to allow the procurement of the 4+ generation fighters.

PS - Myanmar already has 32 Mig-29 fighters and can procure another 2 squadrons in short time if it really wanted to.

 

[alaungphaya]

So what about naval standoff weapons? What can Bangladesh do from the air to take out our fleet? And I mean either what you have now or firm orders, none of this "We're buying 10 squadrons of F-35's in 20 years" nonsense.

 

[Nike]

Argue with the government of BD as that is the plan. 4 squadrons by 2021 and 10 squadrons by 2030 is "Forces Goal 2030".

As regards trainers, 9 K-8s and 16 YAK-130 are either delivered or will be soon. This is plenty to train 3-4 squadrons of pilots. These trainers were ordered to prepare the ground for large numbers of modern fighters

You also have not taken into account that BD already has 8 Mig-29 and so getting the Mig-35 which shares the same basic airframe wont be a big deal. SU-30 will be harder and more expensive to operate so my guess is that BD will go for 4 squadrons if it chooses Mig-35 and only 3 squadrons if it goes for SU-30.

Funding wont be too much of an issue if BD is prepared to wait till 2021 as currently a large chunk of the procurement budget is going towards Navy and in 2-3 years time, the focus can be on air-force to allow the procurement of the 4+ generation fighters.

PS - Myanmar already has 32 Mig-29 fighters and can procure another 2 squadrons in short time if it really wanted to.

You need to getting the idea on how procurement of any platform will always be accompanied by another support and infrastructure items. Even if you bought the exact same of fighter like the previous one you had, let said, Mig 29 you must considering the limit and ability of your current infrastructure to hold and maintain them. If Bangladesh is full of dough like what you said, there is no need for your Air Force to keep, maintain and bought such oldies like F-7 BGI in first place as stop gap unit. Not to mention, Bangladesh Air Force had other priorities besides fighter, like what the Hercules and other carrier fleets you had is very old and need replacement ASAP, more modern Ground radar unit and station to augment your early detection capability and so on.

For Myanmar, if they can bought more Mig-29 fighter, they will not to chose JF-17 at first place. So funding is a big issue for them

 

[TopCat]

So what about naval standoff weapons? What can Bangladesh do from the air to take out our fleet? And I mean either what you have now or firm orders, none of this "We're buying 10 squadrons of F-35's in 20 years" nonsense.

Dude Bangladesh planners dont have Myanmar in mind while picking weapons. The most BD may face with Myanmar is just a some border skirmishes. BD and Myanmar never changed border in the last 5000 years.

But for India its completely different. In the last 2000 years the border changed 100s of time. Control shifted from Estern to Western India and vice versa dozens of time, border changed along with it. BD/India border is very fluid. Look how uneasy India was made when China wanted a deep sea port in Bangladesh whereas China already have a port few miles south in Myanmar without any problem from India. So Bangladesh army has to keep India in mind despite we have friendly relation with India.

So it make us laugh when Myanmar tries to have parity with us. Even Rohingya is not a major concern for us as long as they stay in your side of the border.

 

[UKBengali]

You need to getting the idea on how procurement of any platform will always be accompanied by another support and infrastructure items. Even if you bought the exact same of fighter like the previous one you had, let said, Mig 29 you must considering the limit and ability of your current infrastructure to hold and maintain them. If Bangladesh is full of dough like what you said, there is no need for your Air Force to keep, maintain and bought such oldies like F-7 BGI in first place as stop gap unit. Not to mention, Bangladesh Air Force had other priorities besides fighter, like what the Hercules and other carrier fleets you had is very old and need replacement ASAP, more modern Ground radar unit and station to augment your early detection capability and so on.

For Myanmar, if they can bought more Mig-29 fighter, they will not to chose JF-17 at first place. So funding is a big issue for them

OK, let us see if you are right or government of BD that has stated 4 squadrons of modern fighters by 2021 and 10 squadrons by 2030.

 

[alaungphaya]

Dude Bangladesh planners dont have Myanmar in mind while picking weapons. The most BD may face with Myanmar is just a some border skirmishes. BD and Myanmar never changed border in the last 5000 years.

But for India its completely different. In the last 2000 years the border changed 100s of time. Control shifted from Estern to Western India and vice versa dozens of time, border changed along with it. BD/India border is very fluid. Look how uneasy India was made when China wanted a deep sea port in Bangladesh whereas China already have a port few miles south in Myanmar without any problem from India. So Bangladesh army has to keep India in mind despite we have friendly relation with India.

So it make us laugh when Myanmar tries to have parity with us. Even Rohingya is not a major concern for us as long as they stay in your side of the border.

See, that argument may work for Myanmar as we actually have to plan for far bigger threats like Thailand but it doesn't work for you as the only other country you face is India and there's no chance of anything meaningful against them. So your only objective is to attempt parity with us (which you don't have). Don't be a clown all your life, iadjani, spreading your deluded ideas about the world. Just answer the question.