One example - why I believed strongly in a secular India.

[Naofumi]

Yeah! but West did not need India against USSR as we did not have a border with the USSR. Only Iran and Pakistan were needed and they were made part of SEATO and CENTO.

CENTO was a dead treaty all over it's lifetime, and moreover both were established at 1954-55 - Nehru could have tone down his socialist tendencies since 47 and pursued strong relations with west.

 

[jamahir]

Nehru should have never gotten us into the USSR/Non-alignment camp in the first place. West camp was always more beneficial.

I must point out that India was always in the Western camp.

in the Korea War, India was fighting alongside the so-called UNO forces ( basically the West ) against North Korea + USSR + China.

I must also mention that India's external intelligence agency RAW started relations with Mossad right from time of inception.

Not to mention other things like smuggling Dalai Lama into India with help of CIA, and the Indian military helping the CIA install nuclear-powered listening devices in the Himalayan mountains bordering China.

They only needed India against China and we know how West greatly helped India in defeating and destroying China during that war. We owe it to them for that great help.

We must remember that since 1969, the USSR and China started being in conflict and that led to the West starting warmer relations with China, which allowed China to develop its industrial base comfortably. Not much to do with any magical "opening up" of its economy.

 

[Joe Shearer]

The real question is what happened in those 65 plus years, so much that we ended up with Hindu Nationalists. How they got here from being zero to 272+ twice. You can live in the future sulking over thoughts of defeating them, or ask RaGa to take more pleasure trips to Pattaya so that he gain his 'momentum' back. Then come back to being the same RSS - Modi - Nazi - ISIS. Repeat...

Are you willing to read my analysis? It seeks to explain this precise phenomenon. I have already received feedback from a few members who were kind enough to critique it, and am working on incorporating that feedback.

 

[Naofumi]

I must point out that India was always in the Western camp.

It's one thing to co-operate in isolated incidents and it's another thing to be firmly in the camp.

We must remember that since 1969, the USSR and China started being in conflict and that led to the West starting warmer relations with China, which allowed China to develop its industrial base comfortably. Not much to do with any magical "opening up" of its economy.

It doesn't matter, results matter.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Its not that simple my friend. I grew up in those times.

It is not for we trying. Both Nehru and Indira did try but for the US, Pakistan was more important than India in the 1960s due to SEATO and CENTO pacts to stop the spread of communism while China was more important in the 1970s as China was ready to back stab the Soviets and partner with the US instead.

Have you read Sarila's book?

Indira came empty handed when she went begging for food grains as we were going through great famine.

How about PL480?

The whole Jayaprakash Narayan movement was black & white (sorry! no color in those days) revolution sponsored by the foreign powers to teach India a lesson.

Indira had no option but to nationalize the assets to get the sharks out and secure the country.

 

[MayaBazar]

CENTO was a dead treaty all over it's lifetime, and moreover both were established at 1954-55 - Nehru could have tone down his socialist tendencies since 47 and pursued strong relations with west.

May be you did not know. Nehru closely worked with US until Indo-China war. HF-24 Marut was designed by Germans and was powered by British Orpheus engine. The issue was US was not inclined to transfer the tech and Nehru had to go for the Soviet MIG-21s which resulted in US selling arms to Pakistan and supporting Pakistan and the rest is history.

 

[Naofumi]

May be you did not know. Nehru closely worked with US until Indo-China war. HF-24 Marut designed by Germans and was powered by British Orpheus engine. The issue was US was not inclined to transfer the tech and Nehru had to go for the Soviet MIG-21s which resulted in US selling arms to Pakistan and supporting Pakistan and the rest is history.

I think we were not seen as a reliable and safe long term investment due to our socialistic tendencies/USSR leanings.

Maybe it also had to do with having an active communist party in Kerala and Bengal, especially CIA was suspected to be involved when E. M. S. Namboodiripad was dismissed as CM.

 

[Shantanu_Left]

Most of the fathers of my Hindu friends growing up had a "rakhel" on the side. So much for the attention on polygamy.

@Shantanu_Left would have some fine words to share on this.

As if the Indian posters here haven't reported me enough.

If you want to see me in this forum, I better complete an online course on how to not objectify women.

Besides I have promised the mod's to curb my real opinions on ....ah, never mind. I'm sure you understand.

 

[MayaBazar]

Have you read Sarila's book?



How about PL480?

No sir. I am not a big reader of the books but have been reading newspapers everyday for the 50 years. I can skip my breakfast but never reading the newspaper. By gods grace my memory is still sharp and I can vividly recall events from when I was 3 years old.

The issue started even before Indira & PL480 when Nehru approached Truman in 1949.

Apparently, Nehru's sister, Vijayalakshmi Pandit, then ambassador to the US was badly humiliated by the then Speaker of the House Sam Rayburn who asked her to approach Pakistan for the food grains.

The Green revolution under Indira's leadership is what gave India the true independence which resulted in nuke test of 1974 to announce India on the world stage and the rest is history.

I think we were not seen as a reliable and safe long term investment due to our socialistic tendencies/USSR leanings.

Maybe it also had to do with having an active communist party in Kerala and Bengal, especially CIA was suspected to be involved when E. M. S. Namboodiripad was dismissed as CM.

It was never about India being democratic or socialist. It was always about protecting India's independence and sovereignty.

 

[Naofumi]

It was always about protecting India's independence and sovereignty.

If we had simply banned communists in India , it would have been beneficial in the long term but nevermind.
@jamahir would be hurt.

@Joe Shearer

 

[Joe Shearer]

If we had simply banned communists in India , it would have been beneficial in the long term but nevermind.
@jamahir would be hurt.

@Joe Shearer

That was not practical. The CPI and the CPM (later) were very influential then. Far more than we can imagine today.

No sir. I am not a big reader of the books but have been reading newspapers everyday for the 50 years. I can skip my breakfast but never reading the newspaper. By gods grace my memory is still sharp and I can vividly recall events from when I was 3 years old.

The issue started even before Indira & PL480 when Nehru approached Truman in 1949.

Apparently, Nehru's sister, Vijayalakshmi Pandit, then ambassador to the US was badly humiliated by the then Speaker of the House Sam Rayburn who asked her to approach Pakistan for the food grains.

The Green revolution under Indira's leadership is what gave India the true independence which resulted in nuke test of 1974 to announce India on the world stage and the rest is history.

True, to some extent; in the early 60s, after Nehru and before Indira, India lived on PL 480.

It was never about India being democratic or socialist. It was always about protecting India's independence and sovereignty.

You MUST read Sarila; gives a spine-chilling account of the conspiracy that he alleges was conducted before partition.

As if the Indian posters here haven't reported me enough.

If you want to see me in this forum, I better complete an online course on how to not objectify women.

Besides I have promised the mod's to curb my real opinions on ....ah, never mind. I'm sure you understand.

Oh c'mon. That's all past. Stop whining and step right in; the water's fine. No sharks visible, only porpoise.

I've been getting under-five-minute responses to complaints from this aggressive enhanced Mod team.

 

[MayaBazar]

If we had simply banned communists in India , it would have been beneficial in the long term but nevermind.
@jamahir would be hurt.

@Joe Shearer

You cannot win by banning an ideology. You have to defeat it through merit and providing a better alternative.

Nehru was neither a capitalist nor communist. He blasted both capitalists and CPI but he was open to taking ideas from both ideologies as he felt fit for Indian conditions.

True, to some extent; in the early 60s, after Nehru and before Indira, India lived on PL 480.

Yes. US did provide the grains and they were in better quantity and quality than what was received from the soviets but the point was the the bad blood was already created with the back and forth negotiations & congressional hearings on the strings attached. India was going literally from ship to mouth.

You MUST read Sarila; gives a spine-chilling account of the conspiracy that he alleges was conducted before partition.

Ok. will check it out.

 

[Chhatrapati]

Its not that simple my friend. I grew up in those times.

It is not for we trying. Both Nehru and Indira did try but for the US, Pakistan was more important than India in the 1960s due to SEATO and CENTO pacts to stop the spread of communism while China was more important in the 1970s as China was ready to back stab the Soviets and partner with the US instead.

Indira came empty handed when she went begging for food grains as we were going through great famine.

The whole Jayaprakash Narayan movement was black & white (sorry! no color in those days) revolution sponsored by the foreign powers to teach India a lesson.

Indira had no option but to nationalize the assets to get the sharks out and secure the country.

And look at what China got out of it, they are now friends with both Russia and trade with the US. What did we get by being the good 'friend' of the USSR? A bull crap Socialism that didn't get us anywhere but a mass that loves freebies. Whatever be the reason, since independence, we tried our romance with Socialists, Nehruvian, or Indira. The worst years of our nation, but can't blame them, they probably had no choices but we are now struggling from those poor choices.

Are you willing to read my analysis? It seeks to explain this precise phenomenon. I have already received feedback from a few members who were kind enough to critique it, and am working on incorporating that feedback.

Of course Joe sb, please give me the link.

Its the congress that opened up the economy as well-No- Better late than never. What has this present GOv done for prosperity other than shrink the economy?

Oh we are eternally grateful for "opening up the economy". Wish I could say "**** you" for saving us after watching us drown for a decade.

 

[jamahir]

It's one thing to co-operate in isolated incidents and it's another thing to be firmly in the camp.

Umm, participating in a invasion war is not an isolated incident.

The Green revolution under Indira's leadership is what gave India the true independence which resulted in nuke test of 1974 to announce India on the world stage and the rest is history.

Yes, Indira Gandhi was the person to lead India through the Green Revolution but the main man responsible for this was the American agriculture scientist Norman Borlaug and also the American foundation - Rockefeller :

Wheat Breeding in India

Efforts at wheat breeding in India were led by M.S. Swaminathan at the Indian Agricultural Research Institute in New Delhi. In 1959, he got in touch with Norman Borlaug and arranged for Borlaug to travel to India. Borlaug visited in 1963, and, following his trip, shipped several hundred kilograms of Mexican wheat varieties to India. In March 1964, India asked Borlaug for 20 tons each of two varieties, which would be used for 1000 acres of demonstration plots at Indian research institutions.

1964 brought political changes in India, resulting in increased government support for "scientific agriculture," including hybrid wheat. According to John H. Perkins:
"As Minister of Food and Agriculture Subramaniam moved to embrace fully the promise of the high-yielding varieties of wheat, he was simultaneously rejecting the entire basis of India's development plans as they had been developed by Nehru and the Planning Commission since 1947. It is likely that only the near-calamitous political conditions in 1964 and 1965 permitted [Prime Minister] Shastri and Subramaniam to promote a policy that was so accepting of the new wheats at IARI. Possible outbreak of famine, eruption of political violence over shortages of food, and stern pressure from the World Bank all combined by August 1965 to complete the transition in the central government to a full embrace of the technology needed to get higher agricultural production."
Following a brief war with Pakistan in the summer of 1965 and the announcement of new U.S. policies on food aid to India, India asked the Rockefeller Foundation for a large amount of Mexican wheat seeds, to be planted in the fall of 1966. Rockefeller, under President J. George Harrar, offered $100,000 for the purchase of wheat seeds. In public statements, both Shastri and Subramaniam linked national security to India's ability to produce more food via Green Revolution technologies. Subramaniam said: "Our men of science are called upon to provide the ideas and leadership for bringing into the fields and techniques which will effect a breakthrough in our agriculture and sustain its dynamic growth... Agriculture in this country should be regarded as a management problem and not merely a way of life, and I am sure, the productivity approach is going to help us in maximizing output."

A bull crap Socialism that didn't get us anywhere but a mass that loves freebies. Whatever be the reason, since independence, we tried our romance with Socialists, Nehruvian, or Indira. The worst years of our nation, but can't blame them, they probably had no choices but we are now struggling from those poor choices.

You remind me of @Soumitra. Where did you learn the term "freebies" ?

Tell me, the Bombay Stock Exchange has been running continuously since year 1875. How can you call India a socialist country ? Compare it with Cuba and pre-2011 Libya.

If we had simply banned communists in India , it would have been beneficial in the long term but nevermind.
@jamahir would be hurt.

Beneficial how ?

Do you think all those people in India who commit suicide for financial reasons do so because of India's experiment with socialism ?

Take this very recent case from Hyderabad :

HYDERABAD: Overburdened with mounting financial issues, a 42-year-old owner of a footwear shop from Malakpet tried to set himself ablaze outside the CM Camp Office in Punjagutta on Sunday. Police personnel posted at the spot stopped the man from killing himself and detained him.

Police preventing Md Nazeeruddin from killing himself near Pragathi Bhavan
According to the police, Md Nazeeruddin could not pay the monthly instalments for the 20-lakh loan he had taken to run his business. Due to the lockdown, his shop was shut and consequently, he could not earn any money. The firm that lent Nazeeruddin the money had also sent him a legal notice as he had defaulted on his EMIs.

Unable to bear the burden of debt, Nazeeruddin went to CM Camp Office on Sunday to take the drastic step. He reached the spot on a bike, parked it near a bank and walked towards the Camp Office with a bottle of petrol in his hand. As he reached the office gate, he started pouring petrol on him. Police posted at the place detained him and handed him over to Punjagutta police.

 

[Soumitra]

You remind me of @Soumitra. Where did you learn the term "freebies" ?

What else do you call 10 rupees a month hostel fees in the heart of delhi for jholachhaps

What about free electricity, water, bus, metro

Free loans to farmers promised by politicians before every election

The free mixer grinder and TV schemes in TN