Sorry agnostic Muslim is it ? My credentials are not up for question, as far the information provided on the AK1 MBT. I would not have posted such information it if it where false. And Yes i am constantly between Europe and Pakistan due to work, next timei will send my CV. As far as the AK2 i have heard nothing execpt what various people are saying in this Foroum. However as the AK1 has only recently entered very limited Service with Pakistan Army so why has work begun already on its replacement as you guys claim?
Official Al Khalid 2 Discussion
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Keysersoze
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Well my employer went to Spain with Pakistan Army test pilots for the Tiger trials as it our company trying to secure the deal, also just to let you know Pak Army has expressed strong interest in it. Im not sure why other than lack of technology in line with Pak Army requirment the WZ10 has been tested also but the verdict is still out with not very good feedback. You guys are right that i can not give documents or proof on what ia am saying. However i can not see the reasons to why some of you may think i am trying to miss lead you? As far as the Tank issue i can assure that the information mysef as and the company have recieved says clear as day that the AK1 although does represent a step forward for HIT and Pak industry, does meet the requirements for which it had been hoped. The T80UD are a stop gap measure if the are brought which thus far they have not been, Further more a new MBT Platform would not be as bigger deal as you think, if purchased the tank would most likely be surplus stock from a third nation E.G. M60T from turkey which are being replaced by M60 Sebra from Israil or MBT2000 from China. Pakistan Army is negoitiating for Stryker APC s? Would that with itadvanced electronic system be a difficult platform for the Pak Army. Pakistan had also requestes the FMS of 24 Black Hawk last year but we where sold Bell 412 intead? Guys for those of you who i diod not say to Eid Mubarak by the way.
Kinmd Regards RS4
I wasnt aware that because i log in UK where i spend most of my time would be such an issue for you, Next time i am in Pakistan i will send a message, however quoteing articles from other websites and foroums can hardly be called proof. Time will tell my!
Keysersoze
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1 This is the interenet so i dont see why i should pass on my credentials to people i dont know,
2 Why should what i say be meet with the scorn, either you have a problem with me because i am from and live in the UK, or just dont like hearing what i have to say as it does not go along with the popular theme. As a forum it shurely is about those who care about Pakistan regardless of political beliefs to come to get share views and ideas asa well information in RESPECTFUL and opened minded manner. That is why i joined? everything i have learned i share with you guys as distant brother's in good will and as we say in the UK ' a heads up' So try to see i am only sharing what heard, seen, read and learned from reliable or first hand sources. Try not so suspicious gentlemen as i am not the enemy rather a friend who see some thing a little differently.
Regards RS4
AgNoStiC MuSliM
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1 This is the interenet so i dont see why i should pass on my credentials to people i dont know,
2 Why should what i say be meet with the scorn, either you have a problem with me because i am from and live in the UK, or just dont like hearing what i have to say as it does not go along with the popular theme. As a forum it shurely is about those who care about Pakistan regardless of political beliefs to come to get share views and ideas asa well information in RESPECTFUL and opened minded manner. That is why i joined? everything i have learned i share with you guys as distant brother's in good will and as we say in the UK ' a heads up' So try to see i am only sharing what heard, seen, read and learned from reliable or first hand sources. Try not so suspicious gentlemen as i am not the enemy rather a friend who see some thing a little differently.
Regards RS4
If you can't verify your credentials, then your posts that offer information that contradicts most of the publicly available information will be taken skeptically. Its as simple as that.
If you can back up what you say with other reliable sources (media, interviews, journals), that would be another way of validating your information.
QUOTE=epool;223822]Your information seems to be not supported by facts on the ground. Army is quite satisfied with the Al-Zarrar and Al-Khalid 125mm platforms as they are investing in the platform capability expansion projects. What are the 'mixture technologies' your refer to? Again the AK and AK-1 project are NOT financed by the Saudi Government. Its a Pak-China affair all the way with some local and European elements added to it! Which defense contractors have received the ''go-ahead'' for new tanks from GHQ? Pakistan spent years and billions to set-up HIT and now do you really think that they will bring in another completely new platform? Highly unlikely scenario my friend! It is the T-80UD and its exclusive oil which is causing more problems for the Army than any other tank in its inventory. Army will NOT buy additional T-80UD's, that is a well known fact! Lastly, Pakistan does not have the money to buy the TIGER attack helicopter, its too expensive![/QUOTE]
Reply to Epool
Pakistan Army haven Brought the Tiger yet it still under negoitiation due to the proce tag. Read below regrading your statment in to T80uds.
The Type 90-II main battle tank introduced in 1992 (Source: Chinese Internet)
201 Institute and 617 Factory continued to improve the Type 90-II by incorporating the tank with a foreign-made engine with better performance and reliability. Initially the French 1,500hp diesel V series engine was considered, but the project (known as Type 90-IIA) was later cancelled due to France joining the arms embargo imposed on Pakistan for its nuclear testing in 1998. A second design powered by a Ukrainian-made 6TD 1,200hp engine later led to the introduction of the Type 90-IIM in 2000. During the 2001 Abu Dhabi Defence Exhibition, the tank was first revealed by NORINCO under its export name MBT2000. The tank has been produced in Pakistan as the Al-Khalid MBT since November 2001.
Propulsion
At least four diesel powerpack options have been tested on the Type 90-II/Al Khalid MBT, including two supplied by the Perkins Engine Company and each comprising of a CV-12 Condor diesel of 1,200hp (as fitted in the Challenger 1 and 2), coupled to a French SESM ESM 500 automatic transmission (as installed in the Leclerc).
The Pakistan-manufactured Al Khalid MBT is reported to be fitted with a Ukraine built 6TD diesel (as fitted in the T-80UD). Claimed to be the most compact MBT diesel engines in the world, the 6TD series are two-stroke, liquid cooled and supercharged with horizontal cylinders and opposed pistons. At its current battle weight of 46t, the engine gives the Al Khalid MBT a 26hp/t power-to-weight ratio and a max speed of 72km/h.
Type 90 / MBT-2000 Main Battle Tank - SinoDefence.com
Take a look good articles on AK1 and other related stuff 1 by retired pak army brigadier
The saga and despair in making of Al Khalid Tank
The saga and despair in making of Al Khalid Tank
z9-ec
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Worldaffairsboard? seriously? you consider that a source?
I had hunch, but now I'm certain that you are an Indian disguised as the Prince of Bel Air.
Why in the world would Pakistan so proudly display something below par in IDEAS? Why did Janes and numerous renowned defence magazines conclude that the AK is one of the top 3 tanks of the decade.
Your true identity cannot be hidden for long.
z9-ec
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The article that you referred to by the Brig. is dated 2001 and was published before the 1st batch of AK entered service. The article does not mention any inferiorities of the AK but commends the project overall.
It is also not reliable as it was posted on some bogus Yahoo group account created by someone.
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Kharian_Beast
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T-80 is used by elite armour units in Russia still to this day. It's one hell of a tank and was designed to compete with M1A1 Abrams. The diesel engine in the UD version is a success and much better than the regular gas turbine the Russians use.
It is so successful that T-90 was largely based on it and IMO is an export version of the T-80, whom Russia allowed very very few nations to obtain during the 80's and 90's.
With that being said, such successful tanks are in Pakistani hands. Why would they accept an inferior product from AK? It is not like Pakistan does not know anything about tanks.
If you would like to take a look at failed tanks in the region, I suggest reading about Arjun.
It is so successful that T-90 was largely based on it and IMO is an export version of the T-80, whom Russia allowed very very few nations to obtain during the 80's and 90's.
With that being said, such successful tanks are in Pakistani hands. Why would they accept an inferior product from AK? It is not like Pakistan does not know anything about tanks.
If you would like to take a look at failed tanks in the region, I suggest reading about Arjun.
Quwa
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There are some gaps in your argument, at least with armor:Well my employer went to Spain with Pakistan Army test pilots for the Tiger trials as it our company trying to secure the deal, also just to let you know Pak Army has expressed strong interest in it. Im not sure why other than lack of technology in line with Pak Army requirment the WZ10 has been tested also but the verdict is still out with not very good feedback. You guys are right that i can not give documents or proof on what ia am saying. However i can not see the reasons to why some of you may think i am trying to miss lead you? As far as the Tank issue i can assure that the information mysef as and the company have recieved says clear as day that the AK1 although does represent a step forward for HIT and Pak industry, does meet the requirements for which it had been hoped. The T80UD are a stop gap measure if the are brought which thus far they have not been, Further more a new MBT Platform would not be as bigger deal as you think, if purchased the tank would most likely be surplus stock from a third nation E.G. M60T from turkey which are being replaced by M60 Sebra from Israil or MBT2000 from China. Pakistan Army is negoitiating for Stryker APC s? Would that with itadvanced electronic system be a difficult platform for the Pak Army. Pakistan had also requestes the FMS of 24 Black Hawk last year but we where sold Bell 412 intead? Guys for those of you who i diod not say to Eid Mubarak by the way.
Kinmd Regards RS4
1) Are you talking about the tank known as "Al Khalid" or are you talking about the minor upgrade "Al Khalid-1". As far as we know, the PA has around 300 "Al Khalid".
2) You think PA will buy MBT-2000 when in fact the AK is an upgraded or pretty much the same tank? Does that make sense?
3) The other link you posted...the one to World Affairs Board...Brute Gorilla is a loser Indian geek...you're going to take his word and use him as a source? That overgrown kid pales in comparison to the likes of H Khan and Usman Shabbir on PakDef who have given news to DefenceNews & AFM.
4) "Al Khalid" is a trademark, Pakistan's going to make full use of the name...the name has a very deep history for Muslims. If we see an AK-2, there is always that possibility - if not a probability - that it is a different tank, just shares the name.
5) Based on point-4, there is increasing cooperation between Turkey and Pakistan...there is a chance that the Turkish Altay could form the basis of AK-2. However that will depend mostly on the weight of Altay, if there are issues, then we'll see a further development to deal with weight and potentially deal with costs as well.
Now regarding the helicopters:
You said PA requested 24 Blackhawks last year and got Bell-412 instead...well Pakistan requested Bell-412 in 2004-2005 and got 26 of them since 2006-2007. So I have serious doubts on your knowledge regarding utility and transport helicopters.
However I will give you the attack helicopter requirement, and trust that you work with Eurocopter. Although Pakistan checking out Tiger was common knowledge since IDEAS 2006...and according to H Khan, PA is still looking for a new attack helicopter..nothing new from you. Even if you do work for Eurocopter...knowledge on armor isn't your strong point, best to leave at that.
asaad-ul-islam
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just so you people know, pakistan transferred some armour technology from al-khalid to Turkey for their next-generation battle tank. al-khalid is anything but a failure. there haven't been any exports because we are not exporting it as a whole right now, only certain parts.
Official claims big rise in arms exports
By Ihtasham ul Haque
ISLAMABAD, July 17: Pakistan’s defence exports have tripled to around $300 million because of the quality of its ammunition, anti-tank guided missiles, rocket launchers and shoulder-fired surface-to-air missiles.
“Our defence exports have been rising substantially because the arms and ammunition we manufacture meet international standards,” Maj-Gen Mohammad Farooq, Director General of the Defence Export Promotion Organisation (Depo), told Dawn.
“We even won a contract in the face of tough competition from developed countries to manufacture parts of Boeing aircraft,” he said.
Although he wasn’t precise about earnings from arms exports, he said: “It has tripled and it is very good for Pakistan.”
He said arms trade was a complex business and it had to be on a government-to-government basis. Pakistan was answerable to the international community in terms of ensuring that the arms did not fall into wrong hands.
He said exports to South Asian, Middle Eastern and African countries had increased significantly.
He said there was a time when the country’s defence industry exported only small arms and ammunition, but now their range had diversified and developed countries were also purchasing Pakistan’s military hardware.
He said optical instruments like night vision devices, laser range-finders and designators, laser threat censors, artillery armour mortars and ammunition, mine detectors, anti-tank rifles, missile boats, different types of tear gases, fuses of unarmed vehicles, security equipment and sporting and hunting guns were also being manufactured in Pakistan.
“The fuses are being purchased by countries like Italy, France and Spain,” he said.
He said army tents, uniform and other equipment were also being exported.
In reply to a question, Maj-Gen Farooq said Pakistan was manufacturing Al Khalid tank. “Due to logistic reasons, we cannot export this tank but its parts are being exported.”
He said the country was phasing out old T-59 tanks by upgrading them to Al Zarar or replacing them with Al Khalid tanks.
The Depo chief said Pakistan had entered into partnership and out-sourcing programmes with several countries.
There was collaboration with China for building an air-defence system and manufacturing of Karakoram-8 and JF-17 Thunder, a multi-role modern fighter aircraft, he said.
The Depo chief said there was a joint venture with South Korea’s Poongsan company for manufacturing improved artillery ammunition. There was cooperation with France’s Nexter company to increase the range, accuracy and effectiveness of different weapons.
“France is also helping us make JF-17 Thunder aircraft and Al Khalid tank more useful by equipping them with advanced avionics,” he said.
He said Pakistan had built Agosta submarines and Puma and Ecureil helicopters with the help of France “with transfer of technology”.
He said collaboration with the United States had increased in manufacturing armoured personnel carriers with transfer of technology.
In reply to a question, he said, Pakistan’s military exports were higher than India’s. “Indians started working on Arjun tank but, they are yet to induct it in their army, while Pakistan has built and handed over Al Khalid tank to the army, although it started the programme later,” he said.
http://www.dawn.com/2008/07/18/top7.htm
Official claims big rise in arms exports
By Ihtasham ul Haque
ISLAMABAD, July 17: Pakistan’s defence exports have tripled to around $300 million because of the quality of its ammunition, anti-tank guided missiles, rocket launchers and shoulder-fired surface-to-air missiles.
“Our defence exports have been rising substantially because the arms and ammunition we manufacture meet international standards,” Maj-Gen Mohammad Farooq, Director General of the Defence Export Promotion Organisation (Depo), told Dawn.
“We even won a contract in the face of tough competition from developed countries to manufacture parts of Boeing aircraft,” he said.
Although he wasn’t precise about earnings from arms exports, he said: “It has tripled and it is very good for Pakistan.”
He said arms trade was a complex business and it had to be on a government-to-government basis. Pakistan was answerable to the international community in terms of ensuring that the arms did not fall into wrong hands.
He said exports to South Asian, Middle Eastern and African countries had increased significantly.
He said there was a time when the country’s defence industry exported only small arms and ammunition, but now their range had diversified and developed countries were also purchasing Pakistan’s military hardware.
He said optical instruments like night vision devices, laser range-finders and designators, laser threat censors, artillery armour mortars and ammunition, mine detectors, anti-tank rifles, missile boats, different types of tear gases, fuses of unarmed vehicles, security equipment and sporting and hunting guns were also being manufactured in Pakistan.
“The fuses are being purchased by countries like Italy, France and Spain,” he said.
He said army tents, uniform and other equipment were also being exported.
In reply to a question, Maj-Gen Farooq said Pakistan was manufacturing Al Khalid tank. “Due to logistic reasons, we cannot export this tank but its parts are being exported.”
He said the country was phasing out old T-59 tanks by upgrading them to Al Zarar or replacing them with Al Khalid tanks.
The Depo chief said Pakistan had entered into partnership and out-sourcing programmes with several countries.
There was collaboration with China for building an air-defence system and manufacturing of Karakoram-8 and JF-17 Thunder, a multi-role modern fighter aircraft, he said.
The Depo chief said there was a joint venture with South Korea’s Poongsan company for manufacturing improved artillery ammunition. There was cooperation with France’s Nexter company to increase the range, accuracy and effectiveness of different weapons.
“France is also helping us make JF-17 Thunder aircraft and Al Khalid tank more useful by equipping them with advanced avionics,” he said.
He said Pakistan had built Agosta submarines and Puma and Ecureil helicopters with the help of France “with transfer of technology”.
He said collaboration with the United States had increased in manufacturing armoured personnel carriers with transfer of technology.
In reply to a question, he said, Pakistan’s military exports were higher than India’s. “Indians started working on Arjun tank but, they are yet to induct it in their army, while Pakistan has built and handed over Al Khalid tank to the army, although it started the programme later,” he said.
http://www.dawn.com/2008/07/18/top7.htm
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