Official Al Khalid 2 Discussion

[Quwa]

just so you people know, pakistan transferred some armour technology from al-khalid to Turkey for their next-generation battle tank. al-khalid is anything but a failure. there haven't been any exports because we are not exporting it as a whole right now, only certain parts.

Sorry, I disagree.

As far as I know no such technology transfer took place, in fact it is Pakistan which will absorb from any cooperation with Turkey. The South Koreans will be helping the Turks with composite armor technology for Altay. This is top of the line stuff, so the Turkish folk are getting the best in this field...and I think Pakistan is working hard towards joining the two in this cooperation.

I project; Pakistan may procure 300~320 Altay MBTs for use by elite armor divisions and potentially Western Border Forces & Naval Marines. Pakistan will try to acquire the new armor, transmission and engine...and revise the basic Al Khalid for new challenges. In the end expect AK-2 to adopt the key systems of Altay, and pretty much follow the guideline of the Chinese ZTZ-99.

As for the reason why we can't export the tank...in the case of KSA, Kuwait, etc, I think you should all read "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man"...you'll get your answer (we can't give them blondes).

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

Sorry, I disagree.

As far as I know no such technology transfer took place, in fact it is Pakistan which will absorb from any cooperation with Turkey. The South Koreans will be helping the Turks with composite armor technology for Altay. This is top of the line stuff, so the Turkish folk are getting the best in this field...and I think Pakistan is working hard towards joining the two in this cooperation.

I project; Pakistan may procure 300~320 Altay MBTs for use by elite armor divisions and potentially Western Border Forces & Naval Marines. Pakistan will try to acquire the new armor, transmission and engine...and revise the basic Al Khalid for new challenges. In the end expect AK-2 to adopt the key systems of Altay, and pretty much follow the guideline of the Chinese ZTZ-99.

As for the reason why we can't export the tank...in the case of KSA, Kuwait, etc, I think you should all read "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man"...you'll get your answer (we can't give them blondes).

regarding the transfer, please read this
www.defence
talk/forums/archive/index.php/t-4986.html
(it's censored for some reason)
turkey is behind pakistan in these aspects. in order to have some sort of cooperation between turkey and south korea, turkey must have some solid experience with tanks, that's where pakistan came in. there was technology transfer between the two countries, and it was more than just armor technology for tanks.

as for the south korean tank, turkey may end up just getting a "ripped off" design from the south korean tank. there isn't really much for korea to improve upon, they don't need another tank. it will mostly be a technology transfer. I don't know if pakistan can use the design for al-khalid 2, the tank may be too heavy for our requirements.

 

[Kharian_Beast]

Also, remember that Turkey had to ask Israel for help when upgrading it's M60 Pattons into Sabra designation, while we upgraded T-59 into Zarrar by ourselves, I do think that we are ahead of the Turks in some areas, because they just bought their way into high tech armour via South Korea.

IMHO.

 

[Quwa]

regarding the transfer, please read this
www.defence
talk/forums/archive/index.php/t-4986.html
(it's censored for some reason)
turkey is behind pakistan in these aspects. in order to have some sort of cooperation between turkey and south korea, turkey must have some solid experience with tanks, that's where pakistan came in. there was technology transfer between the two countries, and it was more than just armor technology for tanks.

as for the south korean tank, turkey may end up just getting a "ripped off" design from the south korean tank. there isn't really much for korea to improve upon, they don't need another tank. it will mostly be a technology transfer. I don't know if pakistan can use the design for al-khalid 2, the tank may be too heavy for our requirements.

Turkey might be behind Pakistan, but South Korea is way ahead of Pakistan. Trust me on this, no tech transfer took place regarding tanks...the bulk of present Turk-Pak cooperation is in munitions, particularly new-generation of ALCMs (similar to Storm Shadow) and PGBs (similar to JDAM). For tanks, armored vehicles and artillery...Pakistan is looking to join the ride.

The K2 design itself will not be used for AK-2...but the composite armor, perhaps engine and transmission. Basically the ZTZ-99 is an upgrade of T-98, which is a revised variant of the T-90 - of which AK is based on. Hence the AK-2 will follow the same guideline, and we'll see an MBT equal if not superior to ZTZ-99.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

Turkey might be behind Pakistan, but South Korea is way ahead of Pakistan. Trust me on this, no tech transfer took place regarding tanks...the bulk of present Turk-Pak cooperation is in munitions, particularly new-generation of ALCMs (similar to Storm Shadow) and PGBs (similar to JDAM). For tanks, armored vehicles and artillery...Pakistan is looking to join the ride.

mark, some transfer did take place a while ago. i think we all realize, pakistan may not look it, but it is still ahead of turkey in other areas besides electronics and ship-building. wait for this year to pass by, and you will see a "warp-drive" in Pakistan's indigenous capabilities.

south korea is way ahead of us, but the french and the germans are way ahead of the south koreans when it comes to building tanks. there is some cooperation between these two, when it comes to al-khalid.

The K2 design itself will not be used for AK-2...but the composite armor, perhaps engine and transmission. Basically the ZTZ-99 is an upgrade of T-98, which is a revised variant of the T-90 - of which AK is based on. Hence the AK-2 will follow the same guideline, and we'll see an MBT equal if not superior to ZTZ-99.

agreed, Pakistan will definitely cooperate with turkey and will indeed share technology coming from south korea, technology that we don't already have or technology that's not available to us from elsewhere.

 

[cabatli_53]

Aselsan has officialy started to develop Altay's fire control system (TAKS). Critical design phrase has been finished and prototype production phrase has been started.

About System, Marksman and commander have two independent fire control system. It provides less volume usage and decreased mission work to commanders. Lots of mission work will decreased an intelligent card level module. This electronical modules is able to control many works of Altay automatically in battlefield.

Many probability, priority, target selection, possible threats and another important subjects will be controlled that module card of Taks. It will control not only all enviromentally target-threat objects but also turret movements, engine, best move condition against targets-threats, active defence systems. This intelligent module will warn - lead the commanders about many subjects to fire-escape possible target-threat with mentioned above specifications so Altay will be able to fire a target blindly.

Aselsan will integrate to Altay with 2 intelligent software (module). First one will be operational, Second one will be spare against an electronic jammer threat. Authorities reported S&H magazine that These technologies and lots of secret systems will bring to Altay the last generation Tank appellation in World...


Regards...

 

[Super Falcon]

is their any official stateent given by pa authorities that they are interested in running a new project for ak 2

 

[RS4]

There are some gaps in your argument, at least with armor:

1) Are you talking about the tank known as "Al Khalid" or are you talking about the minor upgrade "Al Khalid-1". As far as we know, the PA has around 300 "Al Khalid".

2) You think PA will buy MBT-2000 when in fact the AK is an upgraded or pretty much the same tank? Does that make sense?

3) The other link you posted...the one to World Affairs Board...Brute Gorilla is a loser Indian geek...you're going to take his word and use him as a source? That overgrown kid pales in comparison to the likes of H Khan and Usman Shabbir on PakDef who have given news to DefenceNews & AFM.

4) "Al Khalid" is a trademark, Pakistan's going to make full use of the name...the name has a very deep history for Muslims. If we see an AK-2, there is always that possibility - if not a probability - that it is a different tank, just shares the name.

5) Based on point-4, there is increasing cooperation between Turkey and Pakistan...there is a chance that the Turkish Altay could form the basis of AK-2. However that will depend mostly on the weight of Altay, if there are issues, then we'll see a further development to deal with weight and potentially deal with costs as well.

Now regarding the helicopters:

You said PA requested 24 Blackhawks last year and got Bell-412 instead...well Pakistan requested Bell-412 in 2004-2005 and got 26 of them since 2006-2007. So I have serious doubts on your knowledge regarding utility and transport helicopters.

However I will give you the attack helicopter requirement, and trust that you work with Eurocopter. Although Pakistan checking out Tiger was common knowledge since IDEAS 2006...and according to H Khan, PA is still looking for a new attack helicopter..nothing new from you. Even if you do work for Eurocopter...knowledge on armor isn't your strong point, best to leave at that.

even if i work for with Eurocopter? armour may not be my strong point as you say, however pakistan only requested bell 412 once it had been made clear back 2003 that balck hawks where out of the question. Tiger is so far the strongest contender. some time back that a MOU had signed between Italy and Pakistan on Spada 2000 missile, and the Erieye awacs purchase which has now been confirmed. Pakistan is currently discussing the French Caesar gun system. What have you guys heards regarding these.

Also the guy who think i an Indian needs to relax with conspiracy crap, not all Indians hate Pakistan 1 and 2 50 years ago we where all Indians so come on although amuseing it is silly.

A serious question i personally have heard nothing officaial regarding AK2 being even a project in works let alone it being anything to do with Turkey, although is true wouldf be a huge step forward for Pakistan Industry, en gineering and of course the army. But is therer sort of confirmation of sorts.

 

[RS4]

Sorry mark didnt anwser you points in full,

I was refering to the AK1 MBT assembled in Pakistan at HIT,
Sorry correction on the MBT2000 it should have said the Type 99 MBT.
Asi i have nothing new you prob already new about the Agusta offer a129 attack helicopter offer, also offered back 04 bell helicopters made under license by Agusta, also after the earth quake they where offered ch47c six of them. Where you guys aware that all three services are to send a joint test and evaluatuion team in early Febuary 09 for the NH90 helicopter to Italy.

Question for you Mark

I have no doubt over the brand potential of the AK tank, however why has is not been planned replace the vast majority of PA Tank fleet? Also i agree that i do not believe that if there an AK2 roject that the tank will resemble anything in PA CURRENTLY either AK1 or any other chinese origin tank? If what has been said regarding the joint PAK - Turk joint development, then its most likely to resemble KA1 tank. However how can a replacement be on the cards when the AK1 has not entered full service in larger numbers. Wouldnt upgrades to the AK1 platfrom be more logical as most modern MBT have service life of around 15-20 years?
Also if the AK1 is brilliant and i have seriously been mis lead/ mis informed which all though i doubt is possible, why bother with the Al Zarra MBT when the AK1 is a newer faster more heavily armed and more hi tech. Why have both? + the other MBT in service?

And to every one else we all know why the Indians are building under license 1000 T90 mbt? because the arjun is a hopless out of date design and waste of money just like the LCA and their own Awacs aircraft which keep crashing, god know what the Light attack helicopter will be like or the own indeginous (Russian designed) 3rd aircraft carrier.

 

[Quwa]

RS4, let's get something clear...I have respect for you and your opinions, and hope to put forward a good discussion. It was not and will never be my intention to offend you nor discredit your occupation as an employee of Eurocopter.

It's really odd...we have 2 conflicting secondary sources...you versus a person named Sabre on DT and PakDef. Regarding the AK2, the most we can do at this point is wait and see...though Kanwa did report this label before Sabre did. Nonetheless, I think you'd agree that there is a strong possibility of Pakistan now cooperating with Turkey on the Altay MBT. Cooperation between the two countries has already breached into naval and missile cooperation...particularly with R&D and industrial production...this can be confirmed by Janes and open media sources. IMO joint Turk-Pak cooperation in artllery, tanks and other armor is the next logical step...again let's wait and see.

Regarding upgrades on AK-1. According to Sabre the current AK-1 will go through upgrades and will be retained in service for a while. Now as for expanded production, you have to remember that cost was and still is an issue, but now changes in doctrine, ORBAT, etc, are also occuring. The PA may be moving towards quality armor and greater focus on anti-armor through aviation, artillery, infantry, etc. In this case something such as Altay augmented by a good attack helicopter in numbers would be a good combination.

However this is a long-term issue, and in the short and medium-run the PA will have to settle with something...i.e. either more Al Khalid, T-84 or perhaps excess Leopard 2 if possible?

Regarding the helicopters...I would not be surprised if the PA, PN, PAF and SF are looking at NH-90...it is an excellent platform. Secondly, a joint helicopter order through a single firm - such as Eurocopter - may yield favourable financial terms, can you confirm?

However the issue with Eurocopter I find is expense...numbers will be an issue as we do not have the funds to acquire many. Hence Pakistan will have to engage in more low-cost oriented programs, such as the South African New Attack Helicopter (NAH) and possibly even look at AW149 as a mainstay utility & medium transport.

 

[Jihad]

even if i work for with Eurocopter? armour may not be my strong point as you say, however pakistan only requested bell 412 once it had been made clear back 2003 that balck hawks where out of the question. Tiger is so far the strongest contender. some time back that a MOU had signed between Italy and Pakistan on Spada 2000 missile, and the Erieye awacs purchase which has now been confirmed. Pakistan is currently discussing the French Caesar gun system. What have you guys heards regarding these.

Also the guy who think i an Indian needs to relax with conspiracy crap, not all Indians hate Pakistan 1 and 2 50 years ago we where all Indians so come on although amuseing it is silly.

A serious question i personally have heard nothing officaial regarding AK2 being even a project in works let alone it being anything to do with Turkey, although is true wouldf be a huge step forward for Pakistan Industry, en gineering and of course the army. But is therer sort of confirmation of sorts.

Unless there are Pakistani members on the forum of 50 years or older, the rest has never been Indian, so please think a second before you say something like that again.

 

[RS4]

Unless there are Pakistani members on the forum of 50 years or older, the rest has never been Indian, so please think a second before you say something like that again.

Look as in every country there are good and bad, my point was that despite everything we still have and share much in common with India. Yes i am well aware of India policy towards Pakistan especially with Israili help but even still not all the people bad. Im sure few members of the forum are 50+ however to say we where all once or assended from india is not a insult nor intended as that, rather a historical fact. Apologies if that offended anyone.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Look as in every country there are good and bad, my point was that despite everything we still have and share much in common with India. Yes i am well aware of India policy towards Pakistan especially with Israili help but even still not all the people bad. Im sure few members of the forum are 50+ however to say we where all once or assended from india is not a insult nor intended as that, rather a historical fact. Apologies if that offended anyone.

This is of topic, but your point is incorrect. We are all primarily descended from the lands we, our families and our past generations lived on - in most of our cases (Pakistanis that is) those are the lands comprising Pakistan.

India and Pakistan were both created in 1947 - it is therefore factually incorrect to state that 'we all came from India' - we are all part of South Asia and the sub-continent.

But there are several threads on this in the history forum, so back to the topic.

 

[RS4]

RS4, let's get something clear...I have respect for you and your opinions, and hope to put forward a good discussion. It was not and will never be my intention to offend you nor discredit your occupation as an employee of Eurocopter.

My apologies Mark, you answer was excellent with good information, i to wish to engage in many great discussuions not just yourself but with other mebers of the Forum. Quickly i am not an employee of Eurocopter, i work for a pakistan defence contracting ( EnDentre) company based in Islamabad f10. My role as i was born and raised in Europe to liase with European defence company we represent in Pakistan, Eurocopter, MBDA and others.

You mention South African Rooviak, however i have been led to Believe and correct me if i am wrong but arms deals between South Africa and Pakistan won't happen due to South Africa support of Israil. What about the Agusta 129? i heard Turkey and Agusta which are developing a version for the Turkish Army have put a offer to Pakistan regarding these heleicopters. As far as the NH90/EH101 WHAT DO YOU THINK? i think these is an excellent state of the art platform which could really help the PA/PAF.PN as it come in a variety of verstions. The older Leapords i am assume would be ex turkish army, what about the M60T which has been upgraded recently?:

 

[Quwa]

Denel is marketing its goods to Pakistan quite publically, just look at IDEAS 2006 & 2008. I am not referring to the AH-2 Rooivalk, but a newer design simply called "New Attack Helicopter". Please read its profile (LINK).

NH-90 would be an excellent platform, especially for use by the Navy as a naval helicopter for ASW, SAR, AShW, etc. I imagine the PA would acquire NH-90 to replace its Puma and older Huey helicopters. PAF might acquire NH-90s for SAR, VVIP lift and for use by SSW...I imagine a few will be acquired for SSG and SSG-N as well. However NH-90 is an expensive platform, the bulk of Pakistan's helicopter lift will be done by Mi-171. Though the military may need a lighter utility helicopter similar to Bell-412, and I consider the AW149 as an option that we could acquire with ToT for local production.

As for tanks...if PA were to acquire Leopard 2, it will come from Germany, maybe from their excess stocks. I don't think PA will acquire M60.