Numbers of New Tanks in army

[Energon]

One also has to account for the fact that given similar air capabilities for two opposing sides, the deciding battles may end up being reduced to land based combat.

There was an interesting account I read a while back that talked about where future air warfare was heading if two opposing sides had comparable ECM's, AWACS, BVRAMM's etc. The argument made was that in a situation like that, with each side able to counter the others EW capabilities, Air Combat may end up getting reduced to "dog fights" and short range missiles. I'll see if I can find it again.

The IAF seems to be amidst a massive upgradation program to become network centric (I'm guessing on the Israeli model). I don't think they'll ever achieve operational parity with the USAF given the sheer numbers and variety of assets the latter has. Nonetheless, if the IAF does manage to modernize and integrate it's limited land, sea, air and space assets, it will radically change the entire nature of how the Indian armed forces would fight conventional wars.

If this is to be the case, IMO there is still far too much of an unwarranted reliance upon MBTs. The T-90s are a decent platform, but eventually the IA will have to look into other faster and more agile options.

 

[JK!]

Tanks are important because they can hold ground whereas helicopters can't.

 

[Iceman]

Pakistan has a credible Armour Force. As far as the number of tanks are concerned, i cannot give you the exact figures because if certain reasons ... however just to be on the safer side ... let us say ... around .... 3000...

As far as equipping the army with Al-Khalid is concerned, the first ph of the progm is over and formations that had to be given Al-Khalid have taken over the tanks ...Al-Khalid 1 is under trials for new Fire Control Systems, and better active armour protection ... the good news is that Pakistan now is producing its own Armour Plating rather that importing it from China ...
Al-Khalid I will be completely delivered to the army (requisite formations) by 2019.
T-80 UD and T-85s will remain in service ...
AL-Zarrar will replace the existing fleet of T-69s ...completely ..
that is all the information i can give ... safely .

 

[EagleEyes]

Ok what is the Al-Khalid-1 based on? Is it based on the advanced variants of the Chinese Type-99?

 

[su-47]

One also has to account for the fact that given similar air capabilities for two opposing sides, the deciding battles may end up being reduced to land based combat.

i have to disagree with you there. the air capabilities of the IAF far exceeds that of the PAF right now. PAF doesnt even have a credible BVR capability, whereas the IAF has hundreds of BVR capable aircraft. Given the importance of BVR combat in modern age, i would say that right now IAF is MUCH superior to PAF.

In fact, i dont think the disparity in airforce capability between IAF and PAF has ever been wider than it is today.

 

[Iceman]

No .... Many people do believe that Al-khalid is based on Chinese type-90 or 99 as you have mentioned .... Al-Khalid does have striking resemblance with the Type -85 in turret design, nevertheless it is a totally Pakistani project that has been designed and developed by Pakistani engineers .... yes we have taken help from Chinese .. but that was basically due to lack of Industrial base therefore components were imported from China and assembled in Pakistan .... the biggest difference in Al-Khalid and Al-Khalid one will be the Fire Control Sys ... presently ... Chinese FCS are being used .... but in Al-Khalid I ... Sagem of France is being considered to provide the FCS ..... noting wrong with the Chinses FCS .. but we are looking for something even better ... something in the line of Leclerc ...
Al-Khalid I will also have IBMS .. (Intg Battle Mgmt Sys) ... for real time info of the battlefd .. based on Sat, Gr and Aeirial Radio as well as visial recce ...
this one is going to be really a state of the art machine ... and is expected to be fully inducted in Pakistan Army by 2020

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

i have to disagree with you there. the air capabilities of the IAF far exceeds that of the PAF right now. PAF doesnt even have a credible BVR capability, whereas the IAF has hundreds of BVR capable aircraft. Given the importance of BVR combat in modern age, i would say that right now IAF is MUCH superior to PAF.

In fact, i dont think the disparity in airforce capability between IAF and PAF has ever been wider than it is today.

Aray bhai, I was speaking in the context of a hypothetical scenario of "equla capabilities", not specifically in the Indo-Pakistan context. Its OK to get out of the nationalistic mode sometimes.

That said, the comment does apply to the Indo_Pakistan theater, even if in the future, in the sense that Pakistan is pretty determined to bolster its air capabilities by acquiring the Eeeriye, BVR's etc.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

No .... Many people do believe that Al-khalid is based on Chinese type-90 or 99 as you have mentioned .... Al-Khalid does have striking resemblance with the Type -85 in turret design, nevertheless it is a totally Pakistani project that has been designed and developed by Pakistani engineers .... yes we have taken help from Chinese .. but that was basically due to lack of Industrial base therefore components were imported from China and assembled in Pakistan ....

Have we progressed to a point where a significant percentage of the Tank components are being manufactured in house, vs being assembled?

 

[Iceman]

I met two engineers from HIT just yesterday ... according to them ....70 percent of Al-Khalid project is now being developed in Pakistan ... HIT has established substantial BASIC industrial base within HIT to meet that requirement. I have a very good news. Pakistan has developed its own RHA (rolled homogenous armr) plates which are under trial and so far success has been met on various parameters .... once finalized, we would stop procuring Armr Plates from China as well ....
Further to that, Al-Khalid I is being fitted with state of the art Fire Control Sys .... the one being considered is Segam of France for the job....
I have made a mention of this one some other topic as well ... but i just wanted to spread the word....
HIT has also issued a phased progm to upgrade the existing fleet of T-85IIAPs which are around 300 something.... This would include better FCS and D&M upgrades ...

I will deliver more details about the capability to fire ATGMs from tk barrels .. but that later

 

[EagleEyes]

Correct me if i am wrong. But, i am pretty sure that the Al-Khalid-1 (Al-Khalid 2, whatever the name is) will be more like the Chinese Type 99 MBT (ZTZ99 (Type 99) Main Battle Tank - SinoDefence.com) with European fire control systems (as you mentioned) and many improvements which Chinese have successfully been able to done so. However, of course those improvements will be done by us, in our way, to meet the requirements of our own units and terrain. I also heard of negotiations to equip that new tank with a better and much more powerful engine, and the engine could well be from Germany.

 

[Iceman]

The tank may be on the lines of Type - 99 but it is certainly not the same design ... thats for sure .. similarly it is on the same lines as that of T-90S or Leopard II .... we take a lot of technical help from the Chinese and therefore it is normally advocated that we copy of Chinese designs. That is a slap on the face of the R&D carried out by our own engineers and the efforts put into it. Al-Khalid is a Pakistani success story .. not Chinese ....
As far as the engine is concerned, we are quite satisfied with the Ukrainian multi fuel, 1200 HP thingi .... i guess if there is a disturbance in Power to Weight ratio of the tank, owing to increase in its weight from 46 tons, then there could be a possibility of acquiring a new power pack .... so far there is no news as such. I think Ukrainian thing suits us more, since we are also working on the same type with T-80UD 1000 HP multi fuel ..... and acquiring all together a newer power pack with its on intricacies would entail another round of conversions, expertise and mainly, spares ....but that ofcourse that is not for us to decide ...
let us see .. i am trying to get in touch with some auth figure in HIT to confirm power pack issue. Lets wait on that for a while ....

 

[JK!]

What about more protection like armoured crew compartments separate from the ammunition and blowout panels?

 

[fatman17]

Correct me if i am wrong. But, i am pretty sure that the Al-Khalid-1 (Al-Khalid 2, whatever the name is) will be more like the Chinese Type 99 MBT (ZTZ99 (Type 99) Main Battle Tank - SinoDefence.com) with European fire control systems (as you mentioned) and many improvements which Chinese have successfully been able to done so. However, of course those improvements will be done by us, in our way, to meet the requirements of our own units and terrain. I also heard of negotiations to equip that new tank with a better and much more powerful engine, and the engine could well be from Germany.

webby- i read some where (i will try to find the link) that the ukranian engine is best suited for pakistani desert conditions. therefore it is the powerplant of choice for the T-80UD and the Al-Khalid MBT. i dont expect any change by the PA on this issue.

 

[Iceman]

No ... there is no such thing .. you have to understand that Pakistan's Tank Progm is an of shoot of Eastern block tank design, mainly Russian designs ... This school of thought believes in low silhouettes and lt wt tanks .... in this category, anything lesser than 50 tons is a Medium tank, whereas in the western block, Medium tanks go upto 60 tons, which by Russian definition is Heavy tank (such as T-10 of WWII). Autoloader is the main reason by which low signature tanks have been developed. but the magazine in the auto loader accommodates a ltd no of rounds say ... 20 out of the main gum ammo of 46 ( i am not talking of any specific tank) the rest of the ammo has to be stowed inside the fighting compartment. separate compartment is not a viable option in these tanks since there is no room for the crew to stand and load the ammo into the magazine. therefore the ammo is stowed all around them in such a manner that the magazine can be reloaded w/o getting into much fuss and while remaining seated on the station. The advantages of this design is much smaller size tanks, specially in ht, lighter, with higher rate of fire (a tank fitted with auto loader can deliver 6-8 or even higher at times, projectiles in one minute) unlike the one with manual or semi-auto loading method (mostly depending on the loader's proficiency) i.e. 4-6 rds / min.
any further query

 

[Spring Onion]

Sir do we have T84s ????????????

or had we changed some other versions to T84???