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Nuclear Detonation, A mistake?

sigatoka

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Following India's detonation of nuclear devices, Pakistan soon followed with its own detonations of nuclear devices. I strongly believe that the detonations by Pakistan was a mistake. After India tested its devices the western world employed sanctions against India and severly hampered its economic growth and modernisation.

Had Pakistan not detonated its nuclear devices and not become a declared nuclear power, it would have escaped Western sanction and all those years of economic growth forgone would not have been so. Israel has a nuclear capability much greater than that of India and Pakistan combined and yet it has never detonated a single nuclear device.

The counter argument that India would not have feared Pakistan's nuclear capability had it not tested it nuclear device is bunk. Uncertain retaliation is more effective than certain retaliation, after all the game theorist who studied the mathematics of the cold war and nuclear strategy did not win a noble prize for nothing.

What is certain is that the benefits to not detonating is clear while the costs would have been negligble.
 
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Dear sigatoka,

What can i say? I certainly agree with you that if Pakistan have not detonated its nuclear devices it wouldn't have to face economic and military trouble after 1998. In my opinion, Pakistani scientists and politicians in a way countered India, during those days, if you dont know those were the days that there were too much tension on the both sides, and both sides feared war.

Also if you look at the time line, the tensions were too soar that just after a year Pakistan trained mujhideens and sent them across the border. I believe the nuclear devices were detonated due to Pakistan wanted strong foreign policy, and in a way it wanted to be proud of itself and nobody even thought about the sanctions that will be imposed on us after the detonation.

The decision was not properly discussed, and after the approval from the President Nawaz Shareef, they decided to detonate it without doing any discussion/debate on it.

This is just my opinion they might have discussed it they might have not, but seeing sanctions i will just assume that the matter was not discussed properly, and they didn't knew about the sanctions that would be imposed.

Pakistan could detonate the bomb later on, this way it could first fix its military and gain its economical value, ones the military build up is done (weapons are recieved from the United States) and the economy is in good shape (big countries are depended on it) then we could easily detonate it without having fear of sanctions, because we would have learned from India. :frusty:
 
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What you said is right. But we have to remember that at that time. We had currpot leaders. So even if we were'nt sancationed, we still would've been a 3rd world coutnry. So the nuke tests were a right thing to do.It showed the world what we are capabale of. :PakistanFlag:

And as for isreal. The reason they don't test nukes is because if they did. They would get kicked out of UN.
 
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Originally posted by sigatoka@Oct 29 2005, 05:47 AM
Following India's detonation of nuclear devices, Pakistan soon followed with its own detonations of nuclear devices. I strongly believe that the detonations by Pakistan was a mistake. After India tested its devices the western world employed sanctions against India and severly hampered its economic growth and modernisation.

Had Pakistan not detonated its nuclear devices and not become a declared nuclear power, it would have escaped Western sanction and all those years of economic growth forgone would not have been so. Israel has a nuclear capability much greater than that of India and Pakistan combined and yet it has never detonated a single nuclear device.

The counter argument that India would not have feared Pakistan's nuclear capability had it not tested it nuclear device is bunk. Uncertain retaliation is more effective than certain retaliation, after all the game theorist who studied the mathematics of the cold war and nuclear strategy did not win a noble prize for nothing.

What is certain is that the benefits to not detonating is clear while the costs would have been negligble.
[post=1631]Quoted post[/post]​
good idea as they are now garanteed protection against the chinese and also us!
 
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Originally posted by sigatoka@Oct 29 2005, 12:17 PM
Following India's detonation of nuclear devices, Pakistan soon followed with its own detonations of nuclear devices. I strongly believe that the detonations by Pakistan was a mistake. After India tested its devices the western world employed sanctions against India and severly hampered its economic growth and modernisation.

Had Pakistan not detonated its nuclear devices and not become a declared nuclear power, it would have escaped Western sanction and all those years of economic growth forgone would not have been so. Israel has a nuclear capability much greater than that of India and Pakistan combined and yet it has never detonated a single nuclear device.

The counter argument that India would not have feared Pakistan's nuclear capability had it not tested it nuclear device is bunk. Uncertain retaliation is more effective than certain retaliation, after all the game theorist who studied the mathematics of the cold war and nuclear strategy did not win a noble prize for nothing.

What is certain is that the benefits to not detonating is clear while the costs would have been negligble.
[post=1631]Quoted post[/post]​



Easier said than done even i could write an article like that and convince you why we should have detonate a nuclear device....anyways
it was a need at that time and something had to be done and frankly speaking detonating a nuclear device was our last option....
 
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Originally posted by Best of the Best@Oct 31 2005, 08:50 PM
Easier said than done even i could write an article like that and convince you why we should have detonate a nuclear device....anyways
it was a need at that time and something had to be done and frankly speaking detonating a nuclear device was our last option....
[post=1868]Quoted post[/post]​

Could you go more on that and tell me why was it our last option?

Regards,
 
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Originally posted by Ahsan Farooqui@Oct 31 2005, 11:03 PM
Could you go more on that and tell me why was it our last option?

Regards,
[post=1885]Quoted post[/post]​
Things with india were heating up back then. They had no worries because they were getting all the advanced technology, while we were under sanctions. Above all they had nukes tested already. When Pakistan detonated nuclear device. People were litterly dancing on the streets.
 
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Originally posted by Awais@Oct 31 2005, 11:31 PM
Things with india were heating up back then. They had no worries because they were getting all the advanced technology, while we were under sanctions. Above all they had nukes tested already. When Pakistan detonated nuclear device. People were litterly dancing on the streets.
[post=1892]Quoted post[/post]​

Good point, India had already detonated its nuclear devices in 1970s* though Pakistan didn't test it, although under my sources, i have a pretty good knowledge that Pakistan made its nuclear bomb way before than India did, as the result india competed and actually tested without caring/knowing the consequnces for it. Pakistan later tested in 1998 just after India made the second test!
 
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Originally posted by Ahsan Farooqui@Nov 1 2005, 05:33 AM
Could you go more on that and tell me why was it our last option?

Regards,
[post=1885]Quoted post[/post]​


India at that time was conventionally was more well equit at that time
and after the nuclear test from india we were at major risk considering that tentions were all high at that time if war would have broken out india would have tested its new nukes on pakistan at the begning of the war that is if war had broken out. pakistan had to react quicky it had all the tech material and knowledge to make a nuclear device and so the pakistani side assembled a nuclear device and tested it giving a clear message to india..... :tease: :mace_rune: :tank:
 
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Dear Best,

If we have not tested it they wouldn't have known, in this situation nobody can actually embargoes us, because we haven't detonated the nuclear bomb, look at Isreal everybody knows it has nuclear devices but it have never detonate it. This also given an advantage of that nobody will attack you.

Think about it, what would happen if Pakistan tested its nuclear missiles and the test was not successful? Now everybody knows you have nuclear weapons that dont work, and they will attack you as soon as possible to get rid of your threat/nuclear technology.

Just a thought. Cheers.

Originally posted by Best of the Best@Nov 1 2005, 02:04 AM
India at that time was conventionally was more well equit at that time
and after the nuclear test from india we were at major risk considering that tentions were all high at that time if war would have broken out india would have tested its new nukes on pakistan at the begning of the war that is if war had broken out. pakistan had to react quicky it had all the tech material and knowledge to make a nuclear device and so the pakistani side assembled a nuclear device and tested it giving a clear message to india..... :tease: :mace_rune: :tank:
[post=1896]Quoted post[/post]​
 
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Originally posted by Ahsan Farooqui@Nov 1 2005, 10:05 AM
Dear Best,

If we have not tested it they wouldn't have known, in this situation nobody can actually embargoes us, because we haven't detonated the nuclear bomb, look at Isreal everybody knows it has nuclear devices but it have never detonate it. This also given an advantage of that nobody will attack you.

Think about it, what would happen if Pakistan tested its nuclear missiles and the test was not successful? Now everybody knows you have nuclear weapons that dont work, and they will attack you as soon as possible to get rid of your threat/nuclear technology.

Just a thought. Cheers.
[post=1901]Quoted post[/post]​



LOL Ahsan do you actually think that isreal must have not tested its nuke IMO(in my opinion) even if isreal would have tested its nukes who in the world would have even known about it besides USA dont you think USA the country giving 3 billion + aid to isreal yearly to buy arm's wouldnt have known about isreal having nukes come on its just a media hype i am dead sure that isreal must have tested it nukes one way or another..........mind it they are isreal a nation always supported by the U.S we are Pakistan the nation always sanctioned by them........... besides there is no use digging up old grayes :cheers:
 
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Originally posted by Ahsan Farooqui@Nov 1 2005, 03:35 AM
Dear Best,

If we have not tested it they wouldn't have known, in this situation nobody can actually embargoes us, because we haven't detonated the nuclear bomb, look at Isreal everybody knows it has nuclear devices but it have never detonate it. This also given an advantage of that nobody will attack you.

Think about it, what would happen if Pakistan tested its nuclear missiles and the test was not successful? Now everybody knows you have nuclear weapons that dont work, and they will attack you as soon as possible to get rid of your threat/nuclear technology.

Just a thought. Cheers.
[post=1901]Quoted post[/post]​
Isreal had their spy sats eyeing pakistan.US had their sats eying pakistan.India had their sats eyeing pakistan.So with so many countries looking at pakistan, how could pakistan get away with such big thing.And besides, india has it's RAW agents in pakistan that coud've told india that pakistan has nukes. :hypocrite:
 
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Enemies Go Nuclear
Pakistan answers India with its own atomic tests. Now will the two rivals be able to avoid going to the brink?


Jun. 8, 1998
They were, in the classic metaphor of the nuclear age, like two scorpions in a bottle, eyeing each other warily, showing off their stingers, dimly aware though not properly worried that an attack by either would mean death to both. But in this case the rivalry between India and Pakistan could start the world's first nuclear war.

It's no longer just a theoretical possibility now that Pakistan has exploded its nuclear devices. Clinton Administration officials have secretly begun analyzing scenarios depicting how the two nations might stumble into an atomic exchange. It could go like this: Muslim militants in Kashmir, covertly backed by Islamabad, step up their insurgency in the disputed Himalayan territory, where several Indian and Pakistani soldiers already die each week in cross-border skirmishes. India lashes back, sending its troops across the Pakistani border to chase militants. Islamabad retaliates with heavy artillery shelling. Conventional war breaks out and quickly escalates to the point where both sides resort to their nukes, and 15-kiloton, Hiroshima-size bombs are dropped by warplanes or lofted by missiles on densely populated cities like Bombay and Karachi. Many thousands of civilians die, and deadly fallout spreads throughout the subcontinent.

Officials all over the globe hope that such a frightening specter will sober both countries into backing off their nuclear one-upmanship. But for the moment, each seems determined to match the other, bomb for bomb. After India detonated five nuclear devices two weeks ago, the question was not whether Pakistan would respond but when. At 3:30 p.m. last Thursday, the earth at the Chagai test site shook, then collapsed. Needles on seismic recorders from Australia to Sweden bounced forward to 4.9 on the Richter scale, indicating that an underground explosion with the power of 2 to 12 kilotons had discharged. "We have settled the score with India," Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif grimly announced, claiming that five nuclear bombs had been exploded. U.S. intelligence officials suspected there had been fewer. But on Saturday Pakistan conducted one more test at a nearby site to mirror India's back-to-back blasts. In an exclusive interview with TIME, Sharif said these tests would be the last "for the foreseeable future." Asked about Pakistan's actions, Sharif responded, "We were compelled to make a test. As a human being, I can tell you it was a painful decision. But we're talking about the security of a country."

The international community shuddered at the thought of where this path would end. Bill Clinton was dismayed. In just 17 days the Asian subcontinent had suddenly repeated, as he darkly put it, "the worst mistakes of the 20th century." Now would the Indian and Pakistani explosions, as some optimists suggest, bring a kind of fearful stability to the region? Could the two countries settle back into a state of mutual assured destruction (MAD), like the one that kept the superpowers from nuclear holocaust during the cold war?

Not very easily. India was driven to show off its atomic prowess by a newly aroused nationalism that will be hard to squelch and a macho sense of pride at joining the big boys in the still exclusive nuclear club. Pakistan, citing security fears, responded in kind. Neither country has in place any of the protective mechanisms that helped keep the superpower rivalry in check. Over four decades, the U.S. and the Soviet Union built spy satellites to watch each other's weapons, installed a hot line so the two leaders could communicate directly during crises, and negotiated treaties to contain their arsenals and reduce fears of a sneak attack. India and Pakistan, which have fought three wars in the past 50 years, have no such arms-control measures in place. "MAD requires a level of rationality that we may not have in this region," notes a State Department official.

Other nuclear powers, like the U.S., Britain and China, had launched intense diplomacy to dissuade Pakistan from retaliatory tests. By last Tuesday, a CIA satellite overhead had observed trucks moving away from the Chagai site and concrete being poured to seal the underground test chamber. Calculating the time it would take the cement to harden so nuclear fallout wouldn't escape, the CIA predicted that the blast could occur by early Thursday.

Shortly before midnight Wednesday, Clinton phoned Sharif for the fourth time, offering conventional weaponry and financial aid if he didn't proceed. But by then Sharif was ready to give his scientists the order to set off the bombs in less than seven hours. Islamabad was incensed by what it considered lackluster international sanctions leveled against India for its provocative tests. Polls showed that 70% of Pakistanis wanted their government to detonate its devices. At a defense seminar, an officer in Pakistan's powerful military told the Prime Minister, "The time to conduct a nuclear test is now," then projected a slide with NOW printed in large letters. And Sharif told Clinton, "I don't think I'll last in office more than two or three days if I don't make a test." As Sharif explained to TIME, "The outside world is not aware of the emotional feelings of the people of this region."

Washington's fear is that both sides will move into the next stage: threatening each other directly by placing nuclear warheads atop missiles. By week's end, the Pakistani government was denying rumors that its Ghauri missile, whose 930-mile range can reach all major cities in India, was already being capped with nuclear warheads. But both countries could probably deploy nuclear-tipped missiles within months. Since those missiles could reach their targets in 10 minutes or less, "you have a situation where either side, thinking its forces may be under attack, would launch on warning," says a Clinton aide. And without satellites to spot the other side's preparations, "the warning is not going to be all that dependable." In the old cold war parlance, it's a hair-trigger situation, in which miscalculation could easily lead to a nuclear exchange.

So how do Pakistan and India pull back? Indian Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee said his country might reach an agreement not to be the first to use nuclear weapons. Domestic opposition to his party's nuclear jingoism is starting to emerge now that cooler heads assess how much sanctions, like the World Bank's postponement of an $865 million loan, may hurt. Even some in the Indian military are urging restraint. "I don't see a warlike situation building up on either side," says General V.P. Malik, chief of staff.

For his part, Sharif told TIME, "I still feel we can make progress through bilateral negotiations and talks." Pakistani enthusiasm for a nuclear-arms race may quickly wane under the fierce bite of the same U.S. sanctions slapped on India, because Pakistan depends far more on international loans. "They are wrong to say the costs would be manageable," insists Mahbub ul Haq, a former Pakistani Finance Minister.

Washington delivered stern diplomatic notes last week warning both countries not to fit nuclear warheads on missiles. The Administration plans to press them to sign the Comprehensive Test kill Treaty and begin serious negotiations to halt production of the plutonium and highly enriched uranium that fuel their bombs. The U.S. also wants to try to mediate their long-running dispute over Kashmir.

That's a tall order. The CIA warns that Pakistan is planning another flight for its Ghauri missile. Both countries have balked at a test kill in the past and have refused to negotiate a halt to production of fissile material. India does not want U.S. meddling in Kashmir. Japan has agreed to cut its sizable economic aid, but Washington expects Europe to undercut sanctions and to trade with both countries. Even the U.S. is worried that severe economic penalties might only serve to create two basket-case countries with bombs. A costly arms race would be just as economically ruinous.

"There may be a spiraling arms race here, but we do not think it is inevitable," says Deputy Secretary of State Strobe Talbott. The world can only hope so. Before the May explosions, the Pentagon's Joint Chiefs of Staff conducted several simulated war games to see how the U.S. might intervene to prevent a nuclear-armed India and Pakistan from using those weapons in a war over Kashmir. The games always ended the same way: the officers concluded that there was virtually nothing they could do to stop the nukes.

Taken from TIME Magzine
 
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Israel has never ""tested" its nuclear device with physical detonation. Does this make Israel's nuclear capabilities any less formidable. Every tom, Dick and harry knows that both Israel and Pakistan have nuclear weapons and thanks to Vanunu we know thats Israels capability is greater than India and Pakistan's nuclear capability COMBINED.

Pakistan's GDP at PPP when it detonated its nuclear weapon must have been around 250 billion. Pakistan's natural rate of GDP growth is 6% without any significant reforms. 8% with deep reforms right now as Musharaf and Shaukit Azziz has proven and 10% with brutal reforms that all Asian tigers and China right now is proving.

What might not be easily realised is that Pakistan grew at ONLY 2% after the test due to trade and investment restrictions. 6%-2% = 4%
4% of 250 = 10Billion. The effect lasted 5years. 10B *5 = 500Billion.

2% growth doesnt feel terrible because you dont feel loosing the 4% potential growth that YOU HAVE.

The development of the nuclear bomb had insignificant effects on the Pakistani economy. The ACT of DETONATING the nuclear bomb pissed away $500 billion U.S. Dollars. Do the Maths, it was $3,333 over 5 years for every man, woman and child in Pakistan.

Thats $3,333 U.S. Dollars over 5 years for EVERY woman, man and Child.

Look i understand that the detonation may have improved the technical expertise of Pakistan's scientists. But was it worth $500B????
I only wish the people pushing the red button were aware that they destroyed 500B U.S. dollars of the Poor Pakistan's people. The Earthquake has caused ONLY 5B worth of damage. Look the Indians were idiots in detonating their nuclear bomb. When a sheep jumps off a cliff (as they sometimes they do) there was no reason for Pakistan to also jump.

Every decision especially one so significant must take into account NOT Only the benefits of the actions. Pakistani decision makers did take into account the benefits of detonating. Every decision MUST ALSO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT the COSTS of the decision. In this case the cost was $500 Billion.
 
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Originally posted by sigatoka@Oct 29 2005, 06:47 AM
Following India's detonation of nuclear devices, Pakistan soon followed with its own detonations of nuclear devices. I strongly believe that the detonations by Pakistan was a mistake. After India tested its devices the western world employed sanctions against India and severly hampered its economic growth and modernisation.


Under the circumstances it was justified for Pakistan to go nuclear and in my humble opinion it GoP did wise doing that.
Btw its a general misconcept that India suffered huge from the detonation.
Their economy recorded over 5% after 1998 due growing private sector and strong relations with Russia and.
Only setback came in some industrial projects where cooperation with US and EU came under sanctions.


Had Pakistan not detonated its nuclear devices and not become a declared nuclear power, it would have escaped Western sanction and all those years of economic growth forgone would not have been so. Israel has a nuclear capability much greater than that of India and Pakistan combined and yet it has never detonated a single nuclear device.


What are you talking about???
Pakistan's been under sanctions ever since 1977, though they were lifted from time to time to serve Uncle's interests i.e. Afghanistan.
Israel's nuclear program is based on plutonium and not enriched uranium.
With advanced techonolgies they've been able to run long series of cold simulations giving them a credible operational system.
So it cannot be compared to Pakistan.

The counter argument that India would not have feared Pakistan's nuclear capability had it not tested it nuclear device is bunk. Uncertain retaliation is more effective than certain retaliation, after all the game theorist who studied the mathematics of the cold war and nuclear strategy did not win a noble prize for nothing.
Both India and Pakistan have a good intelligence netwok and know what they are capable of.
Both countries have feared eachother due lack of CBM's and AEW's.

What is certain is that the benefits to not detonating is clear while the costs would have been negligble.
Please eleborate..
 
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