Now that India has lost the war with Pakistan, what is the impact on India's security?

[GumNaam]

Indian defence malaise won't be solved so easily. IAF does not even have good trainers.

China & Pakistan are not going to sit idle either. They will go for the kill before India could even recover.

I don't get you man, being an indian living in india, what makes you so anti indian? and india does have good trainers and advanced ones, bae hawks. but if the trainers and the trainees are both idiots then that can hardly be blamed on the aircraft.

 

[HalfMoon]

I don't get you man, being an indian living in india, what makes you so anti indian? and india does have good trainers and advanced ones, bae hawks. but if the trainers and the trainees are both idiots then that can hardly be blamed on the aircraft.

What makes you think that I am anti-India?

 

[GumNaam]

What makes you think that I am anti-India?

some your posts I've read came across as anti indian.

 

[HalfMoon]

and india does have good trainers and advanced ones, bae hawks. but if the trainers and the trainees are both idiots then that can hardly be blamed on the aircraft.

HAL revives intermediate jet trainer programme to help rookie IAF pilots
The IJT, also known as Hindustan Jet Trainer 36, is an aircraft indigenously designed and developed by HAL to replace its own Kiran jet trainers —- which were made from 1964 to 1989 and are now being retired from IAF service on account of their vintage.
Johnson T A |Bengaluru |Updated: February 22, 2019 7:50:43 am
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“The IJT incorporates the simplicity necessary for ease of conversion from Basic Piston Trainer and the sophistication required for quick conversion to the complexities of an Advanced Jet Trainer,’’ HAL said while embarking on building the aircraft more than 15 years ago.
An intermediate trainer jet progamme — to help rookie Indian Air Force pilots transition smoothly from basic trainers to advanced jet trainers — which was shelved six years ago after multiple failures is being revived again, and a new improved IJT will fly as early as April 2019, a senior official from the PSU Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) said.


On April 28, 2011, an IJT prototype aircraft S-3466 developed problems during a routine flight test, resulting in a crash. Two test pilots on board managed to eject safely. Analysis of the mishap revealed a problem with the stall and spin capability of the aircraft.

With the problem never fully resolved, the IJT programme was shelved as HAL held consultations with foreign consultants including BAE Systems to iron out the problems.

In the absence of an intermediate jet trainer to help its pilots graduate from basic trainers to advanced jet trainers — the British Hawk 132 which entered the IAF in 2008 — the IAF has continued to rely on its stage two trainer, the ageing Kiran II aircraft, to train pilots.

HAL, which has also been building a basic trainer to replace its own obsolete HPT 32 trainers, has developed the HTT-40 or Hindustan Turboprop Trainer and is demonstrating it for the first time in public at Aero India 2019.

“The HTT-40 exceeds the preliminary services qualitative requirements on most fronts and offers a technologically advanced product than its competitor,” HAL’s engineering and R&D director said.


The development of the HTT-40 and the IJT are considered a symbol of HAL’s indigenous aircraft development capability alongside the LCA and a series of helicopters.


https://indianexpress.com/article/i...-programme-to-help-rookie-iaf-pilots-5595606/

some your posts I've read came across as anti indian.

Sorry! I can't be a blind follower of idiots from my country.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Possibly a trigger and a vigour to re-equip Indian armed forces?! The aftermath of 1962 was immediate modernisation of Indian armed forces and we were extremely powerful in the 80's as a result of that. Perhaps we needed a kick in the back.

Our GDP for defence is lowest since 1960 and perhaps it will increase to 2-2.2% again? Perhaps more Rafales will be ordered. IBM programme might come back on track. But if PAF has its own issues. It was caught with its pant downs. It was only after IAF fighters chased PAF fighters deep into their territory they were able to bring it down through SAM or AA or another ac.

Good post. I agree broadly with what you said. I suspect there will, after the false bravodo has died down deep introspection in India. I think there will be root and branch reform in Indian forces with significant ramping up of expenditure.

I hope Pakistan does not get caught in this. The focus in Pakistan I dearly hope goes back to the basic reforms began by PM IK. Education, hospitals, justice, investment in our youth and changing our culture toward business. Pakistan needs another 10 years at least under PM IK to set it on the right path of economic sustainabilty. In 10/15 years much of Chinese military technology will reach maturation and that should be time for Pakistan to carry major military overhaul. But Pakistan right now needs a decade of progress.

I just hope we don't have other incidents to disturb the work that needs doing in Pakistan.

 

[Arulmozhi Varman]

Indian defence malaise won't be solved so easily. IAF does not even have good trainers.

China & Pakistan are not going to sit idle either. They will go for the kill before India could even recover.

It has good trainers. Its training routines are developed from tactics from Russians and lately from Americans. But the aircrafts. Can you imagine we sending Mig 21 Bisons, though not a bad ac but very old in age and time, to intercept F16's and JF17's? The MMRCA process started in 2007 and yet not a single ac has been delivered. And then we have Mig 27 outdated and waiting to be retired. Our jaguar modernisation programme is running 5 years behind schedule, thanks to HAL and sources to be told, some 20 Jags are sitting in HAL hangers.

I just hope we order some 100 plus Rafales, start Su30 MKI modernisation as Su30 tech is still 90's tech, Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A to have some semblance of modern fighters.

As for Army, they have just ordered bulletproof jackets and headgears. Now rifles. Will take 3-4 years for them to be equipped. Finsas was dropped, then Integrated Battle Management was propped up. Again dropped. I just hope its bought back from the dead. Those are game changers. Without significant investment in defence, our armed forces will be hardly expected to win major battles. India might win the battle of attrition in case of long wars. But cost of life is dear and in short wars who loses less life while inflicting major damage are the victors.

 

[艹艹艹]

Will China and Pakistan now get emboldened by this loss of war by India and attack with impunity to balkanize India?

I know you are playing down the opportunity but I am pretty sure planners in Pakistan & China are working out a plan to go for the kill.

China & Pakistan are not going to sit idle either. They will go for the kill before India could even recover.

Don't use your Hindu thought to thinking about China
China is not India

 

[Arulmozhi Varman]

Good post. I agree broadly with what you said. I suspect there will, after the false bravodo has died down deep introspection in India. I think there will be root and branch reform in Indian forces with significant ramping up of expenditure.

I hope Pakistan does not get caught in this. The focus in Pakistan I dearly hope goes back to the basic reforms began by PM IK. Education, hospitals, justice, investment in our youth and changing our culture toward business. Pakistan needs another 10 years at least under PM IK to set it on the right path of economic sustainabilty. In 10/15 years much of Chinese military technology will reach maturation and that should be time for Pakistan to carry major military overhaul. But Pakistan right now needs a decade of progress.

I just hope we don't have other incidents to disturb the work that needs doing in Pakistan.

And pray Pakistan based or origin terrorists arent involved in any attacks around the globe or in India. The time has changed between 2009 and 2019. Not the bravado part. But the social media aspect. Social media has given each and every individual a voice now. And it creates an unwanted pressure on decision makers. They will be blamed if they take a decision and still be blamed if they dont. And that's the exact summary of what happened now.

Will take few years for policy makers to figure out how to deal with Social Media pressure and its consequences. That's the exact difference between 26/11 and now Pulwama.
Same for IK as he have to do something to soothe the pressure of Pakistani public. So if IK wants a peaceful decade for economy to grow, then he needs to walk the talk on terror camps dismantling. I know Pakistan will refuse the existence of camps or terrorists but world works by evidences and right now its not looking in Pakistan direction. Perception is another problem your PM should work on. But right now the Force is stronger with IK.

 

[Titanium100]

And pray Pakistan based or origin terrorists arent involved in any attacks around the globe or in India. The time has changed between 2009 and 2019. Not the bravado part. But the social media aspect. Social media has given each and every individual a voice now. And it creates an unwanted pressure on decision makers. They will be blamed if they take a decision and still be blamed if they dont. And that's the exact summary of what happened now.

Will take few years for policy makers to figure out how to deal with Social Media pressure and its consequences. That's the exact difference between 26/11 and now Pulwama.
Same for IK as he have to do something to soothe the pressure of Pakistani public. So if IK wants a peaceful decade for economy to grow, then he needs to walk the talk on terror camps dismantling. I know Pakistan will refuse the existence of camps or terrorists but world works by evidences and right now its not looking in Pakistan direction. Perception is another problem your PM should work on. But right now the Force is stronger with IK.

Nonsense you are not gonna do nothing and be grateful because your major cities would have been in ruin right now if the international community didn't intervene. You have no evidence as the Pakistani PM said on CNN. Everything they are saying is baseless which I tend to agree with.

Be grateful your family is alive back in Delhi and Mumbai watching some bollywood entertainment. Enjoy life.

They say curiousity killed the cat

 

[GumNaam]

I know you are playing down the opportunity but I am pretty sure planners in Pakistan & China are working out a plan to go for the kill.

relax, stop panicking....
It's against the Chinese and Pakistani (read Islamic) ethics to attack women. But if the woman gets into a pms driven anger frenzy than we reserve the right to bitchslap sense back into her. And that's exactly what Pakistan did...

@long_

 

[HalfMoon]

It has good trainers. Its training routines are developed from tactics from Russians and lately from Americans. But the aircrafts. Can you imagine we sending Mig 21 Bisons, though not a bad ac but very old in age and time, to intercept F16's and JF17's? The MMRCA process started in 2007 and yet not a single ac has been delivered. And then we have Mig 27 outdated and waiting to be retired. Our jaguar modernisation programme is running 5 years behind schedule, thanks to HAL and sources to be told, some 20 Jags are sitting in HAL hangers.

I just hope we order some 100 plus Rafales, start Su30 MKI modernisation as Su30 tech is still 90's tech, Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A to have some semblance of modern fighters.

As for Army, they have just ordered bulletproof jackets and headgears. Now rifles. Will take 3-4 years for them to be equipped. Finsas was dropped, then Integrated Battle Management was propped up. Again dropped. I just hope its bought back from the dead. Those are game changers. Without significant investment in defence, our armed forces will be hardly expected to win major battles. India might win the battle of attrition in case of long wars. But cost of life is dear and in short wars who loses less life while inflicting major damage are the victors.

It is a disgrace that India is still operating MIG 21s first inducted in 1961!

If India is serious that first thing it needs to do is balkanize and sell HAL & OFBs to private players. If India cannot balkanize these then it should be ready to get balkanized herself.

India is lagging in Basic & Intermediate jet trainers. One cannot put a rookie pilot directly on a Rafale.

IAF needs to expedite procurement of 100 Gripen, 140 Rafale, 72 FGFA & 100 units of Predator C Avenger on a priority.

Need to increase S-400s to at least 15 from the current 5 and go for THAAD & Iron Dome.

Army needs to get Armata, VSHORAD (dump IGLA-S and go for Verba or RBS70 NG) and good Sniper equipment.

Navy needs to expedite minesweepers, P-75Is, S-70B


This laundry list is huge and will take an eternity.

 

[Arulmozhi Varman]

Nonsense you are not gonna do nothing and be grateful because your major cities would have been in ruin right now if the international community didn't intervene. You have no evidence as the Pakistani PM said on CNN. Everything they are saying is baseless which I tend to agree with.

Be grateful your family is alive back in Delhi and Mumbai watching some bollywood entertainment. Enjoy life.

They say curiousity killed the cat

And what Nuke my country? Pakistanis and their Nuke threats... A reason why India had to call their bluffs. JeM claimed responsibility and guess what? Masood Azhar, the founder was released into Pakistan in 1999 for exchange for kidnapped Indian airlines flight. Your Foreign Minister blumbed in BBC interview recently when he said Jem told him they are not involved in the bombing. The anchor caught him right there. And that my friend is hardcore evidence. The rest should be investigated by Pakistan.

Even when we had Ajmal Kasab alive in 2009 and when he told all he knew, Pakistan still wanted evidence as its the responsibility of Pakistan to investigate something that was hatched on her soil. Even US was surprised to know that Pakistan had told them that they dont have insufficient evidence when US had same info as India and considered evidences given by India as prosecutable.

I would not stoop to your level. A war is now unwanted from India point of view. Economy is the new warzone. That's where India should concentrate. Just see how US can bring down a country with its sanctions alone, Iran, NK and Venezuela. That's how India should strive to be.

 

[Arulmozhi Varman]

It is a disgrace that India is still operating MIG 21s first inducted in 1961!

If India is serious that first thing it needs to do is balkanize and sell HAL & OFBs to private players. If India cannot balkanize these then it should be ready to get balkanized herself.

India is lagging in Basic & Intermediate jet trainers. One cannot put a rookie pilot directly on a Rafale.

IAF needs to expedite procurement of 100 Gripen, 140 Rafale, 72 FGFA & 100 units of Predator C Avenger on a priority.

Need to increase S-400s to at least 15 from the current 5 and go for THAAD & Iron Dome.

Army needs to get Armata, VSHORAD (dump IGLA-S and go for Verba or RBS70 NG) and good Sniper equipment.

Navy needs to expedite minesweepers, P-75Is, S-70B


This laundry list is huge and will take an eternity.

It will. But I consider the basic things first. Protecting our soldiers and networking each and every indivisual soldier is the primary responsibility. OFB shouldnt hire any new people and should be closed slowly. HAL must be privatized to 49% GoI stake so private players will call the game and hire/fire people across boards to improve accountability. There is an attempt to make indigenous ac industry and BJP govt is giving some pressure in that route which is welcome. Manohar Parrikar saved the Tejas programme from being shelved.
AMCA should be co-developed with France. And when basic necessities are fullfilled then we can go for more extragavant 15 S400, THAAD or Iron dome.

 

[Titanium100]

And what Nuke my country? Pakistanis and their Nuke threats... A reason why India had to call their bluffs. JeM claimed responsibility and guess what? Masood Azhar, the founder was released into Pakistan in 1999 for exchange for kidnapped Indian airlines flight. Your Foreign Minister blumbed in BBC interview recently when he said Jem told him they are not involved in the bombing. The anchor caught him right there. And that my friend is hardcore evidence. The rest should be investigated by Pakistan.

Even when we had Ajmal Kasab alive in 2009 and when he told all he knew, Pakistan still wanted evidence as its the responsibility of Pakistan to investigate something that was hatched on her soil. Even US was surprised to know that Pakistan had told them that they dont have insufficient evidence when US had same info as India and considered evidences given by India as prosecutable.

I would not stoop to your level. A war is now unwanted from India point of view. Economy is the new warzone. That's where India should concentrate. Just see how US can bring down a country with its sanctions alone, Iran, NK and Venezuela. That's how India should strive to be.

I am not pakistani. I just don't agree with you and if your government was being truthful they would have declared war but they won't. So relax and don't waste valuable time.

A full war between this two countries is not a bluff but reality

 

[HalfMoon]

It will. But I consider the basic things first. Protecting our soldiers and networking each and every indivisual soldier is the primary responsibility. OFB shouldnt hire any new people and should be closed slowly. HAL must be privatized to 49% GoI stake so private players will call the game and hire/fire people across boards to improve accountability. There is an attempt to make indigenous ac industry and BJP govt is giving some pressure in that route which is welcome. Manohar Parrikar saved the Tejas programme from being shelved.
AMCA should be co-developed with France. And when basic necessities are fullfilled then we can go for more extragavant 15 S400, THAAD or Iron dome.

BJP had five years to balkanize and privatize OFBs and they did nothing. I am not holding my breath.