Notify PAF Aircraft Crashes

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Sad. Engineers working on CATIA and DELMIA adopted platforms at Chengdu & CASC take immense pride in their work. No doubt turbine development is the heart of aerospace engineering. Eventually responsibles will organize all resources under one head exclusively for turbine development in pakistan. No escape at all.

Isn't gas turbine technology also relevant for energy and ship propulsion? There's no reason for this to be limited to a PAF matter, it ought to be a national technology program (akin to nuclear).

 

[messiach]

I for once and i think only once posed a similar Q to a serving AVM. The Q was, our state is practically & effectively a security state and so everything incld. R&D revolves around security concerns first and foremost & people/welfare comes somewhere down the list. So why & how is it that security projects like turbine R/D, electricity generation etc are nowhere on the list of security concerns in a security state surrounded by enemies. This logically should have been on the top of the list. There were at-least three serving AVM and at-least half a dozen retd. officers and one retd. ACM sitting on that table and NO one could answer this question. All i got was a raw smile.

It is NOT on the list of national priorities. No government military/civilian alike intentionally and I have said this time & again intent-fully neglected these national security concerns. The resultant fallout was fully predictable and well-known.

Isn't gas turbine technology also relevant for energy and ship propulsion? There's no reason for this to be limited to a PAF matter, it ought to be a national technology program (akin to nuclear).

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I for once and i think only once posed a similar Q to a serving AVM. The Q was, our state is practically & effectively a security state and so everything incld. R&D revolves around security concerns first and foremost & people/welfare comes somewhere down the list. So why & how is it that security projects like turbine R/D, electricity generation etc are nowhere on the list of security concerns in a security state surrounded by enemies. This logically should have been on the top of the list. There were at-least three serving AVM and at-least half a dozen retd. officers and one retd. ACM sitting on that table and NO one could answer this question. All i got was a raw smile.

It is NOT on the list of national priorities. No government military/civilian alike intentionally and I have said this time & again intent-fully neglected these national security concerns. The resultant fallout was fully predictable and well-known.

Unbelievable (and aggravating).

 

[Safriz]

 

[BATMAN]

Isn't gas turbine technology also relevant for energy and ship propulsion? There's no reason for this to be limited to a PAF matter, it ought to be a national technology program (akin to nuclear).

Its relevant for energy, but its low efficiency and high investment system.
It requires turbine blades to be regularly serviced and replaced.
Have limited place in the world of renewable energy world.
However there's nothing wrong to acquire service / operation skills, because their is still huge market in ME, which is occupied by Indians.
Taking share of jobs in ME market, would be a good starting point.

Propulsions these days (all new ships) is 100% electric.
As far a/c is concerned there's no alternate yet.

In Pakistan people need to learn about first aid.
Patient here needs some fresh air, and no one should try to move him. but all is going wrong, what possibly could go wrong.

 

[messiach]

OK. I am happy for someone to prove me incorrect. I wish someone would.

Unbelievable (and aggravating).

Wartsilla and some dutch-german energy consortium are actively involved with gas-turbines. Initial costs are high that's why it is prohibitive. Better alloys are changing scenes, ECR should improve in future from 30 to 60%.

Its relevant for energy, but its low efficiency and high investment system.
It requires turbine blades to be regularly serviced and replaced.
Have limited place in the world of renewable energy world.


Propulsions these days (all new ships) is 100% electric.
As far a/c is concerned there's no alternate yet.

 

[BATMAN]

Wartsilla and some dutch-german energy consortium are actively involved with gas-turbines. Initial costs are high that's why it is prohibitive. Better alloys are changing scenes, ECR should improve in future from 30 to 60%.

Leader in turbine design and associated control systems is GE.
Wartsilla... as per my knowledge is into slow speed engines, based on crude oil combustion.
They do have a similar component called Turbo charger, which circulate the flue gases... essentially a turbine but they buy it form 2 external suppliers. Which is simply a complimenting component of power a system not the prime mover.
Better alloys in future may increase MTBSI, but future energy market is moving towards renewables.
There will be no new firms popping up in future.
As I agreed, fighter a/c engine still doesn't have an alternate.
If Pakistan need to go down that path, they need to find their way in to the ME market and take experience and than they will have manpower available, which can help in building turbine designs.

 

[araz]

I for once and i think only once posed a similar Q to a serving AVM. The Q was, our state is practically & effectively a security state and so everything incld. R&D revolves around security concerns first and foremost & people/welfare comes somewhere down the list. So why & how is it that security projects like turbine R/D, electricity generation etc are nowhere on the list of security concerns in a security state surrounded by enemies. This logically should have been on the top of the list. There were at-least three serving AVM and at-least half a dozen retd. officers and one retd. ACM sitting on that table and NO one could answer this question. All i got was a raw smile.

It is NOT on the list of national priorities. No government military/civilian alike intentionally and I have said this time & again intent-fully neglected these national security concerns. The resultant fallout was fully predictable and well-known.

We have for far too long neglected far too many perojects as people have stomachs to fill from commissions from foreign vendors. You know how people are vined and dined and their "every need" looked after when they go abroad for negotiations. This is the sad reality of our acquisition cycles. We think more of ourselves than the country.
Araz

 

[hacker J]

F7 is too old, need to be phased out.

Said PAF will accelerate the production numbers of JF17 to 36 units per year.


Because PLAAF inducted J10, so they didn't go for JF17. JF17 is a tailored made fighter for PAF.

Sire, no doubt jf17 is not at al a bad aircraft. Cheap healthy and customisable but it just doesn go down the throat that just because jf17 is tailor made for paf(remember cac doing all designing prototyping and testing) that plaaf is not even buying 1 squadrn because they have j 10, they also have pretty old j 7 too which can be replaced very cheaply wd jf 17 as j 10 is almost costing double. Plaaf can for stop gap measure use jf 17 for many reasons. Dun gv xample of f2 or any other aircraft they are based on original aircraft design of f 16 and us already deploys f 16 which are similarly capable. Which aircraft is jf 17 based on ???
I belive even if after block 3 if plaaf doesn buy jf 17 it wl seriously dent the image of jf 17 as well as doubts will remain is it really as capable as it is marketed.

 

[war&peace]

Isn't gas turbine technology also relevant for energy and ship propulsion? There's no reason for this to be limited to a PAF matter, it ought to be a national technology program (akin to nuclear).

Yes, you are right, the gas turbines are used in multiple applications both civilian and military. Though the gas turbines used in aerospace applications are special but basic principle is the same i.e. Brayton Cycle.

Govt of Pakistan should have initiated a national R&D project through a consortium of academia, private and military industries. It requires high precision manufacturing process and equipment, specialised materials (metallurgy) and mechanics of materials, unsteady aerodynamics, mechanical system design, control systems etc.
After establishing these centres of excellence, you also need collaborations and JV with advanced foreign institutions and industries. Govt of Pakistan lacks this vision.

 

[messiach]

Continuous combustion is not a feasible option....60% power goes to compressor to keep cycle going. Multiple turbine stages may offer some efficiency advantage. Mid East sure.

Leader in turbine design and associated control systems is GE.
Wartsilla... as per my knowledge is into slow speed engines, based on crude oil combustion.
They do have a similar component called Turbo charger, which circulate the flue gases... essentially a turbine but they buy it form 2 external suppliers. Which is simply a complimenting component of power a system not the prime mover.
Better alloys in future may increase MTBSI, but future energy market is moving towards renewables.
There will be no new firms popping up in future.
As I agreed, fighter a/c engine still doesn't have an alternate.
If Pakistan need to go down that path, they need to find their way in to the ME market and take experience and than they will have manpower available, which can help in building turbine designs.

I have withdrawn this post. This was a semi-private conversation at a marriage ceremony of an PA officer sibling. I do not wish to divulge any further.

We have for far too long neglected far too many perojects as people have stomachs to fill from commissions from foreign vendors. You know how people are vined and dined and their "every need" looked after when they go abroad for negotiations. This is the sad reality of our acquisition cycles. We think more of ourselves than the country.
Araz

This post is withdrawn.

I for once and i think only once posed a similar Q to a serving AVM. The Q was, our state is practically & effectively a security state and so everything incld. R&D revolves around security concerns first and foremost & people/welfare comes somewhere down the list. So why & how is it that security projects like turbine R/D, electricity generation etc are nowhere on the list of security concerns in a security state surrounded by enemies. This logically should have been on the top of the list. There were at-least three serving AVM and at-least half a dozen retd. officers and one retd. ACM sitting on that table and NO one could answer this question. All i got was a raw smile.

It is NOT on the list of national priorities. No government military/civilian alike intentionally and I have said this time & again intent-fully neglected these national security concerns. The resultant fallout was fully predictable and well-known.

 

[DarX]

I ain't nervous. Probably, you're nervous because you won't get paid by Noora and co. this month lol.

But I see that you are getting your allowance regularly from your charlatan leader.

 

[Chak Bamu]

@DarX & @Saif-ud-Din Qutuz

Please keep politics off these threads. Your personal spats shall get negative ratings from hereon. Do not complain then.

 

[DarX]

@DarX & @Saif-ud-Din Qutuz

Please keep politics off these threads. Your personal spats shall get negative ratings from hereon. Do not complain then.

That is totally understandable. There won't be any responses to this issue from my side.

 

[araz]

Continuous combustion is not a feasible option....60% power goes to compressor to keep cycle going. Multiple turbine stages may offer some efficiency advantage. Mid East sure.



I have withdrawn this post. This was a semi-private conversation at a marriage ceremony of an PA officer sibling. I do not wish to divulge any further.


This post is withdrawn.

What has been written can not be unwritten.I understand your concerns and the fact that you dont want to divulge any more information. The fact remains that critical technologies have been dealt with in a novice way and ignored in favour of cheap solutions when we had the get up and go to achieve our aims. This is why we are still begging the ukrainians for their engine Technology, knowing fully well that what we are asking for today could have been there if we had mad e a little investment in time and personell.
A