Not Possible to Industrialize Like China

[Martian2]

India's low growth (only for this financial year) is due to temporarily punishing and radical reforms. Anybody with a basic degree in high school economics will tell you that. We withdrew all our cash, our cash flow came to a standstill and we are still growing at more than 6%. What does that tell you?

If you could read the only link I posted, you will notice that it says India exports more cars than China does. Just because you assemble piecemeal western stuff or make piddly stuff doesn't mean anything. Haven't you seen our pharma exports either?

Don't fool yourself. China is not a high tech exporter. You don't even beat India in car and pharma exports let alone the actual high tech exporting nations. All you do is assemble some iphones and computers, which we have started doing as well. Mental masturbation is all well and good, but it only works in your head.

India won't face a middle income trap, the economy is primarily running on services. Services keeps growing. It's countries like yours that have to transition from a cheap goods factory to the services industry that have to worry about the middle income trap. India has no economic wall. We will simply start delivering higher quality services very quickly, which we have already started doing with analytics and big data.

We are coming to train you in IT.
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-international/India’s-NIIT-to-train-50000-China-students-on-‘Big-Data’/article14380036.ece

The Chinese govt wants Indian companies in the Big Data Valley.
https://analyticsindiamag.com/china-encourages-indian-companies-invest-big-data-pilot-zone/

And then, have you even seen how much data the Indian public consumes today?

Otoh, China's GDP is set to slow drastically the next decade. No more 5%+ growth once the population wall hits. India will grow 3-4 times faster than China will over the next 3 decades and will continue growing by at least 2 times after that. That's why all global experts are saying India will surpass China's GDP by 2050.



No one predicted anything. Only High IQ Chinese jumping up and down over nothing.

Your citation is irrelevant.

Foreign car companies (such as Nissan) are exporting cars from India.

Indian car companies are not responsible for the "Indian" auto exports. Japan's Nissan has growing auto exports from India. India itself (the country) is NOT exporting cars.

We're back to the screwdriver plant problem.

It is misleading to claim Japanese Nissan auto exports as "Indian."

Mexico exports plenty of cars from GM and Ford plants located in Mexico. Guess where all of the profits go? To GM and Ford. Mexico gets a few meager crumbs from screwdriving/assembling GM and Ford cars. No one would consider GM and Ford car exports as Mexican. They're from Mexico, but the cars are NOT Mexican.

All of the revenues and profits from the export of GM and Ford cars assembled in Mexico go to GM and Ford. It contributes nothing to Mexican economic growth.
----------

Read the Picture Caption. What does it say?

Germany's Volkswagen is a major exporter of cars from India. However, the cars are not Indian. German VW cars are exported from India, but the cars are not from Indian companies.

India surpasses China in passenger car exports | Autocar Professional (June 7, 2016)

 

[randomradio]

Liar!

"Though I have envisioned India to become a superpower by 2020, the attitude and the confidence of the youth, to conquer everything in the right spirit, would make the country a global leader and super power within five years," Kalam told reporters.

Read more at:
//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/3005067.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

Meh, that's not a prediction. He's just written a book called Indian 2020 and made a symbolic gesture towards his book. He was simply motivating kids in a school.

Only High IQ Chinese are excited by this. Nothing special.

Your citation is irrelevant.

Foreign car companies (such as Nissan) are exporting cars from India.

Indian car companies are not responsible for the "Indian" auto exports. Japan's Nissan has growing auto exports from India. India itself (the country) is NOT exporting cars.

We're back to the screwdriver plant problem.

It is misleading to claim Japanese Nissan auto exports as "Indian."

Mexico exports plenty of cars from GM and Ford plants located in Mexico. Guess where all of the profits go? To GM and Ford. Mexico gets a few meager crumbs from screwdriving/assembling GM and Ford cars. No one would consider GM and Ford car exports as Mexican. They're from Mexico, but the cars are NOT Mexican.

All of the revenues and profits from the export of GM and Ford cars assembled in Mexico go to GM and Ford. It contributes nothing to Mexican economic growth.
----------

Read the Picture Caption. What does it say?

Germany's Volkswagen is a major exporter of cars from India. However, the cars are not Indian. German VW cars exported from India, but the cars are not from Indian companies.

India surpasses China in passenger car exports | Autocar Professional (June 7, 2016)

What do you think China has done then? When Apple makes iPhone in China, does that make it a Chinese company?

Who cares who makes what in India, only what constitutes as "exports" matter, and we beat you thoroughly in high tech exports. The fact that we are attracting companies like VW, Nissan, Ford etc to make their cars in India for the US and Europe is testament to the fact that these companies recognize India as a major powerhouse for the automobile industry.

And our low tech exports are also coming up now because non-Chinese companies are now setting up shop in India to produce the same thing that China has been producing.

All you have is Huawei and some engineering companies when it comes to some very specific high end technologies. Everything else are simply foreign companies from the US, Europe, Korea, Taiwan and Japan. India is much better in that respect because we at least have a major leadership role in pharma.

Hell, even in China, even with such a massive market, the biggest car brands are foreign companies like VW and Honda. At least in India, we have a homegrown company that dominates the Indian market.

 

[Martian2]

What do you think China has done then? When Apple makes iPhone in China, does that make it a Chinese company?

Who cares who makes what in India, only what constitutes as "exports" matter, and we beat you thoroughly in high tech exports. The fact that we are attracting companies like VW, Nissan, Ford etc to make their cars in India for the US and Europe is testament to the fact that these companies recognize India as a major powerhouse for the automobile industry.

And our low tech exports are also coming up now because non-Chinese companies are now setting up shop in India to produce the same thing that China has been producing.

All you have is Huawei and some engineering companies when it comes to some very specific high end technologies. Everything else are simply foreign companies from the US, Europe, Korea, Taiwan and Japan. India is much better in that respect because we at least have a major leadership role in pharma.

Hell, even in China, even with such a massive market, the biggest car brands are foreign companies like VW and Honda. At least in India, we have a homegrown company that dominates the Indian market.

Chinese exports to the United States contain 4.2% value-added by American companies. US companies have a negligible contribution to China's exports.

Taiwanese and mainland Chinese companies are responsible for the bulk of Chinese exports and trade surplus.

It doesn't matter that Taiwanese companies have a large share of the Chinese trade surplus, because much of it is reinvested into mainland China. Examples include the new multi-billion dollar plants being constructed on mainland China by TSMC and AU Optronics.
----------

Trump wants to renegotiate NAFTA — here's what you need to know | Business Insider (February 5, 2017)

 

[AndrewJin]

Chinese exports to the United States contain 4.2% value-added by American companies. US companies have a negligible effect on China's exports.

The bulk of the Chinese trade surplus accrues to Taiwanese and mainland Chinese companies.

It doesn't matter that Taiwanese companies have a large share of the Chinese trade surplus, because much of it is reinvested into mainland China. Examples include the new multi-billion dollar plants being constructed on mainland China by TSMC and AU Optronics.
----------

Trump wants to renegotiate NAFTA — here's what you need to know | Business Insider (February 5, 2017)

I like your analysis as always, supported by facts and sources of reliable origin.

But sometimes it's painful to see you arguing with SPers who always twist facts and make irrelevant and illogical claims.

Some country worse than Sub-Sahara Africa behaves like a supa powa of 2012, so predictable.

 

[randomradio]

Chinese exports to the United States contain 4.2% value-added by American companies. US companies have a negligible contribution to China's exports.

Excuses. The point is the Chinese companies themselves live in their own bubble created by the CCP to benefit them. Outside, in the real world, they are useless. With the lack of competition, all you have are companies that will take a long time to come up to international standards and compete internationally.

Most of your high tech exports is really Korean, Taiwanese and Japanese stuff.

In a few years, we will have substituted most of our Chinese imports by those same standards.
https://www.thebetterindia.com/126275/made-india-first-india-produces-electronics-imports/
In a significant development for India’s reputation as a manufacturing hub, the domestic production of electronics has shot past imports for the first time in 2016-17.

Speaking to the Times of India, government officials have stated that figures for domestic production of electronic goods for 2016–17 stood at $49.5 billion, above the $43 billion spent on imports.

Taiwanese and mainland Chinese companies are responsible for the bulk of Chinese exports and trade surplus.

It doesn't matter that Taiwanese companies have a large share of the Chinese trade surplus, because much of it is reinvested into mainland China. Examples include the new multi-billion dollar plants being constructed on mainland China by TSMC and AU Optronics.
----------

Trump wants to renegotiate NAFTA — here's what you need to know | Business Insider (February 5, 2017)

Look at the quality difference. In China, you need a foreign company to setup a fab plant.

In India, we are setting up our own plant and AMD wants to use this facility for the global market.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...hip-manufacturing-in-india/article8467511.ece
US-based AMD, which does not own any chip manufacturing plants across the world, has partnered with Hindustan Semiconductor Manufacturing Corporation (HSMC) to help kickstart fabrication in India.

 

[Martian2]

Excuses. The point is the Chinese companies themselves live in their own bubble created by the CCP to benefit them. Outside, in the real world, they are useless. With the lack of competition, all you have are companies that will take a long time to come up to international standards and compete internationally.

Most of your high tech exports is really Korean, Taiwanese and Japanese stuff.

In a few years, we will have substituted most of our Chinese imports by those same standards.
https://www.thebetterindia.com/126275/made-india-first-india-produces-electronics-imports/
In a significant development for India’s reputation as a manufacturing hub, the domestic production of electronics has shot past imports for the first time in 2016-17.

Speaking to the Times of India, government officials have stated that figures for domestic production of electronic goods for 2016–17 stood at $49.5 billion, above the $43 billion spent on imports.



Look at the quality difference. In China, you need a foreign company to setup a fab plant.

In India, we are setting up our own plant and AMD wants to use this facility for the global market.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...hip-manufacturing-in-india/article8467511.ece
US-based AMD, which does not own any chip manufacturing plants across the world, has partnered with Hindustan Semiconductor Manufacturing Corporation (HSMC) to help kickstart fabrication in India.

No. China has its own high-tech companies (see partial list below).

China has its own semiconductor logic-chip fabrication plants. SMIC is currently at 28nm and moving to 14nm.

China’s Production Capacity of 300mm Wafer Will Approach 700,000 Pc/Month, Says TrendForce | CTimes (January 17, 2018)
"The Chinese players, led by SMIC, are currently focusing on mass production of 28nm Poly/SiON process node. Meanwhile, they have made significant progress in increasing the revenue share of 28nm process node, accelerating the mass production of 28nm HKMG, and R&D of 14nm process node."
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China's Billion-dollar companies

I am focusing on China's tech companies. Banks, insurance companies, real estate companies, etc. are excluded from this list.

Here's my pick of China's Top 50 technology companies. Many of China's largest military contractors, such as NORINCO, are missing. It's simply my personal preference to keep the spotlight on the civilian companies.

China's Norinco Is Defense Giant on Global Growth Path - Businessweek
"Sep 25, 2014 - The bottom line: China arms maker Norinco's $62 billion in 2013 revenue make it bigger than Lockheed Martin or General Dynamics."

China Railway Construction - $89.9 billion in sales
SAIC Motor - $88.3 billion
Huawei - $46.3 billion
Lenovo - $38.71 billion
BAIC Motor - $33.3 billion
Haier - $29.5 billion
Huaneng Power International - $21.8 billion
China Aerospace Science and Industry Corporation (CASIC) - $21.61 billion
Sinohydro Group - $19.7 billion
Great Wall Technology - $15.1 billion
China CNR - $14.6 billion
CSR - $14.1 billion
TCL - $13.83 billion
ZTE - $13.1 billion
Tencent - $12.899 billion
Shanghai Electric Group - $12.8 billion
Sinomach Automobile - $12.18 billion
Datang International Power - $12.1 billion
Shanghai Pharmaceuticals - $12.09 billion
Xiaomi - $12 billion
China Aerospace Science and Technology Corp. - $11.29 billion (2009 revenue)
China National Chemical- $9.67 billion
Weichai Power - $9.4 billion
Sichuan Changhong Electric - $9.24 billion
Great Wall Motor - $8.9 billion
BYD - $8.4 billion
Alibaba - $7.95 billion
Baidu - $7.906 billion
China Shipbuilding Industry - $7.9 billion
SINOPEC Engineering (Group) - $7.1 billion
Dongfang Electric - $6.85 billion
Yunnan Yuntianhua - $6.55 billion
Zoomlion Heavy Industry - $6.24 billion
Dongfeng Motor Group - $6.1 billion
Inspur - $5.9 billion
Chongqing Changan Auto - $5.83 billion
Sany Heavy Industry - $5.8 billion
AVIC International - $5.39 billion
BOE Technology Group - $5.38 billion
China Oilfield Services - $4.5 billion
Wanhua Chemical Group - $3.2 billion
Guangzhou Automobile Group Co. Ltd. - $3 billion
Goldwind - $2.85 billion
Shenyang Machine Tool Co. - $2.7 billion
SMIC - $2.07 billion
Netease - $1.5 billion
Hikvision - $1.49 billion
HiSilicon - $1.36 billion
Spreadtrum - $1.07 billion
RDA Microelectronics - $0.43 billion
----------

References:

The World's Biggest Public Companies | Forbes Global 2000
Bloomberg
Statista
Company websites

 

[AndrewJin]

No. China has its own high-tech companies (see partial list below).

China has its own semiconductor logic-chip fabrication plants. SMIC is currently at 28nm and moving to 14nm.

China’s Production Capacity of 300mm Wafer Will Approach 700,000 Pc/Month, Says TrendForce | CTimes (January 17, 2018)
"The Chinese players, led by SMIC, are currently focusing on mass production of 28nm Poly/SiON process node. Meanwhile, they have made significant progress in increasing the revenue share of 28nm process node, accelerating the mass production of 28nm HKMG, and R&D of 14nm process node."
----------

China's Billion-dollar companies

I am focusing on China's tech companies. Banks, insurance companies, real estate companies, etc. are excluded from this list.

Here's my pick of China's Top 50 technology companies. Many of China's largest military contractors, such as NORINCO, are missing. It's simply my personal preference to keep the spotlight on the civilian companies.

China's Norinco Is Defense Giant on Global Growth Path - Businessweek
"Sep 25, 2014 - The bottom line: China arms maker Norinco's $62 billion in 2013 revenue make it bigger than Lockheed Martin or General Dynamics."

China Railway Construction - $89.9 billion in sales
SAIC Motor - $88.3 billion
Huawei - $46.3 billion
Lenovo - $38.71 billion
BAIC Motor - $33.3 billion
Haier - $29.5 billion
Huaneng Power International - $21.8 billion
China Aerospace Science and Industry Corporation (CASIC) - $21.61 billion
Sinohydro Group - $19.7 billion
Great Wall Technology - $15.1 billion
China CNR - $14.6 billion
CSR - $14.1 billion
TCL - $13.83 billion
ZTE - $13.1 billion
Tencent - $12.899 billion
Shanghai Electric Group - $12.8 billion
Sinomach Automobile - $12.18 billion
Datang International Power - $12.1 billion
Shanghai Pharmaceuticals - $12.09 billion
Xiaomi - $12 billion
China Aerospace Science and Technology Corp. - $11.29 billion (2009 revenue)
China National Chemical- $9.67 billion
Weichai Power - $9.4 billion
Sichuan Changhong Electric - $9.24 billion
Great Wall Motor - $8.9 billion
BYD - $8.4 billion
Alibaba - $7.95 billion
Baidu - $7.906 billion
China Shipbuilding Industry - $7.9 billion
SINOPEC Engineering (Group) - $7.1 billion
Dongfang Electric - $6.85 billion
Yunnan Yuntianhua - $6.55 billion
Zoomlion Heavy Industry - $6.24 billion
Dongfeng Motor Group - $6.1 billion
Inspur - $5.9 billion
Chongqing Changan Auto - $5.83 billion
Sany Heavy Industry - $5.8 billion
AVIC International - $5.39 billion
BOE Technology Group - $5.38 billion
China Oilfield Services - $4.5 billion
Wanhua Chemical Group - $3.2 billion
Guangzhou Automobile Group Co. Ltd. - $3 billion
Goldwind - $2.85 billion
Shenyang Machine Tool Co. - $2.7 billion
SMIC - $2.07 billion
Netease - $1.5 billion
Hikvision - $1.49 billion
HiSilicon - $1.36 billion
Spreadtrum - $1.07 billion
RDA Microelectronics - $0.43 billion
----------

References:

The World's Biggest Public Companies | Forbes Global 2000
Bloomberg
Statista
Company websites

wow, most are supa powa 2012 companies!

 

[Martian2]

Chinese tech companies are in every major category of high-technology.

China's Inspur is the world's fourth-largest computer server manufacturer.

"Goldwind is a Chinese wind turbine manufacturer headquartered in Beijing, China. Goldwind was the largest wind turbine manufacturer globally (by installations) in 2015. As of 2016, it was ranked 3rd for onshore and also 3rd for offshore turbine manufacturing by Bloomberg New Energy Finance."

I'm not sure about the name of the Chinese company that builds billion-dollar offshore oil-drilling platforms.

SANY is a top-ten worldwide heavy-construction equipment manufacturer.

SMIC is the world's fourth-largest semiconductor logic-chip fabrication foundry.

Lenovo is the world's largest personal computer vendor.

Huawei is the world's largest telecommunications equipment manufacturer (latest annual sales is $92 billion, my list is a few years old)

"As of 2015, TCL is the world's 3rd largest TV manufacturer with 17.84 million units and has attained 5th position in the smartphone market with 83.55 million of shipment units globally, the company also recorded 48% of revenue from overseas market the same year."

China has gigantic technology companies that are all world-class and ranked among the largest in the world. I don't feel like spending an hour going through my list and explaining their industries. Also, ChemChina, CATL, DJI, and many others are not on my sample list of representative Chinese tech companies.

I'm simply making the point that China's high-technology companies are absolutely huge and located in a wide variety of industries.

Chinese companies are responsible for the majority of Chinese high-tech exports. Just take a look at the list and it should be obvious. Huawei alone has sales of $92 billion.

----------

China has started exporting commercial jets.

China’s regional jets receive first order from Africa | People's Daily Online (January 17, 2018)

 

[TaiShang]

Until India as a country reforms/revolutionizes its culture, mindset and social structure, we will not see the nation transformation in India that we've witnessed in China.

Which is impossible. I guess SP12 does lack the destructive creative tradition of revolutions, and, as you point out, I think culture plays a role.

They prefer band-aid short cuts rather than assuming the real difficult job of national build-up. We can see the easy way of pretension on this board, SP12 people like F-22 Raptor prefers to hide behind a fake flag rather than facing the reality of India.

For many SP12 person, the only way to satisfy their desire to appear on par with China is to assume fake identities. That's a very common practice.

Hence, the obsession to hate other's (China) achievements (when when others are not boastful at all) and the lack of desire to prop up that envy with actual hard work but easy tricks like pretension ensures that India is in reality content with the upcoming population dividend.

But, as @ChineseTiger1986 says, population dividend only generates a sense of growth that is unsustainable although it adds to the GDP just because there are more people every year.

 

[xyxmt]

Back in the early 90’s India claimed manufacture jobs were beneath them. Majority of Indian so smart they were only want to become medical doctors or science related field and concentrate on service sector to generate economy expansion. Indian were too poor to spend on self indulgement, without middle and high class India population unable generated much business for India service industry expansion. Indian need food and no money to indulged in luxury. 1 billion Indian fought over each other to serve 1 percent rich Indian, bypassed low labor manufacture over three hundred millions Indian still live below the poverty line. These poor uneducated Indian won’t qualify to work in a simple low skill manufacture job.

Its not that Indian have any choice, they did not have capital to provide infrastructure for large scale manufecturing development, being a doctor or opening a back office shop doesnt require a lot of capital. On top of that they were forced with democracy crap, democracy in the third world countries suits best to the western interests there they can control the govt by buying off the politicians. Now its too late for India to become a manufacturing power house because China dominates it and no one can beat China in scale of production and the pricing.

 

[Kai Liu]

Interestingly, all forecasts from all major international institutions say India will surpass China in GDP by 2050.





http://www.autocarpro.in/analysis-reports/india-surpasses-china-passenger-car-exports-20224
India has beaten China in passenger car exports for the fiscal year 2015-16. According to numbers collated from SIAM statistics, Indian passenger car exports for FY2016 totaled 532,053 units. This was higher than Chinese passenger car exports for the fiscal – 409,800 units – which were recorded by the China Association Of Automobile Manufacturers. Complementing this data is the 2015 Forbes 2000 list of the world’s largest car exporting countries which lists India as the 20th largest exporter in the world compared to China, which sits at the 22nd position.



You didn't compete with anybody, you simply kicked them out.



You don't know anything about India or India's history.

About india's auto exports and car industries of both China and india, here is a heated discussion:
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/made...-a-glimpse-from-their-auto-industries.526916/
And do take a look at these threads to see what China's car industry is like:
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chinas-auto-sales-volume-reached-28-88-million-in-2017.540557/
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chin...-etc-news-images.438024/page-25#post-10210282
About China collapses and india shine, as you said, you can find them in all western media and organizations.

 

[rcrmj]

Excuses. The point is the Chinese companies themselves live in their own bubble created by the CCP to benefit them. Outside, in the real world, they are useless. With the lack of competition, all you have are companies that will take a long time to come up to international standards and compete internationally.
In India, we are setting up our own plant and AMD wants to use this facility for the global market.
.

lol, this is how your high caste slave owners brainwash you lot, "India sets its own lab?" lol on what %$#%^ planet you are from? India is a factor driven primitiv society, which has nothing to do with modern technologies and R&D, they are all hoax, bought, borrowed, stole and false propaganda.

I have been doing business with Indian and sourcing factories in India for long time when I was in the U.K```there was not one tech or core equipment those factory used are Indian as simple as that. ````` for now as I am living in Hangzhou where Alibaba headquatered, do you know how those IT guys mock Indian IT capability? ```` Since Alibaba has became the major shareholder of Paytm, they found your lousy IT skills, primitive implementations and platform structure, but they dont want their money going down the drain, so they have to send loads of tech supervisors to India to help out. And their "feedbacks" from working in India are quite entertaining in our IT circle ```not to mention the awkward living conditions of your most "shining" cities``

for now China is the leading player in the field of commercial and industrial patent, and dominates in the category of high tech end product export, bigger than US and Japan combined, yet India's total high tech end product exports are smaller than a tier 2 city like Hangzhou``````

you dont have the wit, money, will and managerial skill to be industrialized, fact!

 

[Akasa]

The fact that China industrialized like China makes it possible to industrialize like China.

 

[AndrewJin]

lol, this is how your high caste slave owners brainwash you lot, "India sets its own lab?" lol on what %$#%^ planet you are from? India is a factor driven primitiv society, which has nothing to do with modern technologies and R&D, they are all hoax, bought, borrowed, stole and false propaganda.

I have been doing business with Indian and sourcing factories in India for long time when I was in the U.K```there was not one tech or core equipment those factory used are Indian as simple as that. ````` for now as I am living in Hangzhou where Alibaba headquatered, do you know how those IT guys mock Indian IT capability? ```` Since Alibaba has became the major shareholder of Paytm, they found your lousy IT skills, primitive implementations and platform structure, but they dont want their money going down the drain, so they have to send loads of tech supervisors to India to help out. And their "feedbacks" from working in India are quite entertaining in our IT circle ```not to mention the awkward living conditions of your most "shining" cities``

for now China is the leading player in the field of commercial and industrial patent, and dominates in the category of high tech end product export, bigger than US and Japan combined, yet India's total high tech end product exports are smaller than a tier 2 city like Hangzhou``````

you dont have the wit, money, will and managerial skill to be industrialized, fact!

Hope one day they can reach Sub-Sahara Africa lev.

 

[Dungeness]

The fact that China industrialized like China makes it possible to industrialize like China.

The fact that China industrialized like China makes it possible for countries like China to industrialize like China.