North East Asian Union? Exploring the potential of an NEA integration

[Aepsilons]

To be honest, if the former Philippine president Quirino didn't forgive the Japanese back in early '50s, we Filipinos may have a negative view of the Japanese, but because of our nature, we decided to forgive them "early".

I have to be honest, some of the ideas Nihonjin1051 recently shared here I do not agree, but since this is about North East Asia, I am in no position to speak as my country is in South-east Asia, and thus should focus more on ASEAN-related issues.

I'm curious to know what points you disagree with. I value dialogue, incredibly , so please enlighten me.

 

[Cossack25A1]

I'm curious to know what points you disagree with. I value dialogue, incredibly , so please enlighten me.

The idea integration at present times.

For example, ASEAN was created in the 1960s and in the 2010s, there is the proposed "ASEAN Economic Community" which should had began in 2015 but it didn't happen due to various reason. Though unlike ASEAN, Japan, China and the Koreas have several things in common, whereas ASEAN has "three cultures" - the culture of Indo-China, the Malay culture, and Hispanic culture.

Adding to that is the political aspects - the negative memories of World War 2 is still being kept alive by Koreans and Chinese due to certain issues involving modern Japan, and I don't think integration is going to help, well at least at present times where issues about the past are still being debated and negotiated.

Integration will only be a possibility if all past issues that involves all parties have been resolved.

 

[Tiqiu]

You are wrong, my friend. To correct you and you know me, the biggest and most hardcore Chinese nationalist or I called it "patriot". I would destroy even a friendly country in the past if they go against our national interest. So please allow me to correct you, my friend.

We have no issue with the Japanese politicians visiting the shrink. Our main issue is the shrink incorporated a few war criminals. We have said and suggested many times that they can removed those war criminals from the shrink and no protest were be issue from us. Japan chose to keep those war criminals in a plot to play up the tension. There is some theory as to why they continue to do this and they chose very selectively the year to do so. It is after all a political plot to raise up the tension with us because they know we will protest and our position on the war criminals is very clear. Personally, I believe the Japanese do this so they can use our position to remove their constitution which in turn allow them to be independently of the US. If they successfully accomplished this master plan, then it will be their biggest achievement in the 21st century.

Just want to add one more point. Like the Chinese, or maybe the Vietnamese, Japanese are also not known for their explicitness; we all have too many ways to implicit things.

There is a likelihood that visiting the Shrine and rebelling the Chinese demand are the Japanese way to express their unsatisfactory among the youth about this post WW2 order chiefly imposed by the US.

 

[gambit]

We have no issue with the Japanese politicians visiting the shrink. Our main issue is the shrink incorporated a few war criminals.

Yes, you do. According to the Shinto beliefs, the souls are interned, the bodies, if any, are of lesser importance. Is there a ritual that the JPNese can perform to theologically 'remove' those souls or relocate them ? Ask our JPNese member.

We have said and suggested many times that they can removed those war criminals from the shrink and no protest were be issue from us. Japan chose to keep those war criminals in a plot to play up the tension. There is some theory as to why they continue to do this and they chose very selectively the year to do so. It is after all a political plot to raise up the tension with us because they know we will protest and our position on the war criminals is very clear. Personally, I believe the Japanese do this so they can use our position to remove their constitution which in turn allow them to be independently of the US. If they successfully accomplished this master plan, then it will be their biggest achievement in the 21st century.

Then you and I are essentially in agreement that this union is nothing more than an academic fantasy.

 

[Twitchingbouse]

I agree, especially initially, it would be a heavily economized union, as seen in the development of the CJK FTA negotiations. It could still be rather effective in the security realm, as well, but, that would not call for giving up sovereignty. The SCO has been rather successful in meeting its goals of fighting the three dangers, and no member state had to give up their sovereign powers. Decision-making could be harmonized in a NEAU security framework but not necessarily centralized.

Counter-terrorism is one thing the SCO could do while retaining sovereignty, but an actual effective fighting force with no centralization? Im not convinced, a military needs centralization of command, and that means centralization of authority to some extent.

Not necessarily. The relationship, including decision-making can be structured to ensure equal weight. Or, in the Asian Way, it could be based on concensus. But in no waythere would be subordination especially between three major powers.

I'd like to see that consensus codified, otherwise I don't think that it would hold much weight.

History is repetitive but that's also through a certain level of dialectical progress. So, it is always possible to create more progressive institutions.

Its possible yes, I just dont believe its probable anytime soon based on the European and American experience, and more than 50 years in the future is anybodys guess.

The politician said that with respect to certain Southeast Asian countries and this also does not necessarily reflect the entirety of China's foreign diplomacy in a perfect way. Japan was truly independent before the war (and it made some fatal mistakes) and it is always possible to re-gain independence. We are very close to Japan and we truly appreciate its level of development and sophistication. Japan's problem is ideational, not material. Hence, once the mindset is set right, Japan can regain sovereignty from the US and China is in no way interested in inflicting any harm upon Japan's sovereignty. Okinawan resistance to US military has demonstrated that Japan has in fact maintains that sovereign spirit.

Yes Japan was independent before the war, but that's because China was very weak and had been occupied by the colonial powers recently. Before the arrival of the West in Asia Japan was a tributary state in China's system.
Well if Japan changes its mindset then the issue should be revisited, but with its current mindset (China's as well imo) I don't see a union as being plausible, any more than the North American Union would be plausible.

There would be, at least in perception, certain power disparities as they reflect the reality, that is, perhaps crude numbers. But, centralization would not be needed, rather, it would be an institutionalized union. Decision-making pertaining to the genera regional security would be made there. Local affairs would remain local, as always.

That sounds to me like power would be centralized to a supranational organization and thus lead to a loss of sovereignty of the members, or it would be essentially useless outside of actual agreement of all the members. We see how that works in the UN.

Initially, I would imagine of an SCO-style military cooperation. That is, it would have well-defined objectives such as ensuing security in regional waters, fighting piracy, maintaining SLOCs etc. In the advanced stages, the parties would also sign an agreement of mutual defense through systems specifically designed and tasked for such contingencies. The authority would be shared equally.

The initial stages are doable while retaining your stated structure of the union, but how do you coordinate a war if there is no central coordinator? A central command structure/authority is a necessity for effective military operations. Disagreements in how to use resources in a hot war can't be tolerated. The military is one sector where autocratic management is superior to democratic management.

Nice catch. I had put him on ignore list because of false flag but let's see how it will end up this time. If history repeats itself, we will end up in circular debate as similar issues will be raised continuously.

Wasn't hiding it, I thought I'd already posted it in my profile but its up there now.

Anyways the feeling is mutual, I have no desire to ignore you outside of this false flag business as that accusation gets a little too personally directed at my character for me to be comfortable continuing to talk to you at that point, Hopefully we have more productive discussions this time around and those accusations are past.

@Nihonjin1051 I wish you would reply to my post #25, not trying to force you (as if i could lol) so this is the only time ill tag you. I just am interested in how you see it working.

Alternatively perhaps you could reply with your own reasons on why you disagree with my post #77 Would you call yourself a pan-asian, more a japanese nationalist, or moderate? something else? Was I completely off?

 

[soundwave1987]

There is a major misunderstanding about this NEAU thing: IF this union will ever be formed, it will NEVER be China dominate（even though China may be the strongest mumber）. A Union stands only on similarity( be it common interests or ideology or culture or whatever), which means no one can ignore others to satisfy its own good. You see US & Soviet Union were kinda ofboss around in their camps, that was because mumbers in each camps were actually quite heterogeneous. But UK/Australia/New zealand/Canada always enjoy a better and equal relationship with US due to the greater similarity. People in these countries see each other as closest allies or cousins and are willing to sacrifice much more than rest of other allies. In these cases, similarity does matter.
The similarity between China/Korea/Japan is quite obvious to most people, but I don't think outsiders can really understand the historical and philosophy complexity within.The concept of 天命( heavenly mandate) and 华夏 was, is, and will ever be running in the vessels of chinese/korean/japanese. Unlike most of outsiders think, the word 华夏 (westerners usually translate it as Cathay which is just a fancy name to China) means not exactly "China", but "the magnificent costume and civilized ritual" of classic China. So anyone who adapt Chinese culture can be defined as 华夏(like many dynasties/states founded by different ethnic groups in Chinese history). Sure Korea and Japan are both unique and not exact 华夏(China) itself, but they both directly inherited from 华夏 too. The very core of their nation(not only the race but also the culture and society and philosophy) are almost the same with China yet quite distinct(different expressions I think) at the same time. In fact Korea viewed itself as “smaller China” and Japan once view itself as "another China" in history. Korea was always jealous of Japan about being the "unique one" and always wanted to prove itself as the "first born" and "better child" of China, whereas Japan view itself as an independed one who can succeed the "father" and view Korea as a ranting "little brother". During Meiji times, Japanese enlightenment thinkers used 尊王攘夷( to defend the way of confucianisim and to repel barbarians) as a weapon of civil revolution and latter the ideology origin and justification of expansion to Korea peninsula and China mainland. In fact chinese people are still wondering today: what if Japan took the advantages of 同文同种(same culture, same race) to infiltrate and integrate Korea and China peacefully instead of to invade with military force(which means oblige and atrocity), would it succeed? what if Japan succeeded to conquer all China, would it be just another dynasty of China(if they fail to kill off chinese language and culture)? People are still arguing.
So if where will ever be a Northeast Asia Union or East Asia Union thing, I think it will be tighter and closer than most people (especially the westerner) today can see. If this union includes not only the three, I think...China and Japan and Korea will be very likely much more equal than other mumbers(I'm not saying chinese/japanese/Korean are racist or fascist, I'm talking about they share much more similarity). Such an union actually benefits both the three, as all of them can obtain larger political influence and better economy environment. It doesn't mean China/Japan/Korea must sacrifice normal diplomatic relationships with other countries, but it will surely terminate the sole supremacy and special influence of US in Pacific area, especially the defacto political control and military intervention in Japan and Korea peninsula.
In fact, the political and historical arguments between east asia countries are quite trifling and not real matter--public sentiment can be manipulated by political wills, territorial disputes can be solved by unification--as long as no other party involved. You can see China and Japan using each other as an excuse but both their eyes are on US, who is the only matter and the core of all tangles. Consider this: What if China have 5 carrier battle groups? What if Japan and Korea are more independed? Does the union still seem to be so far away? I think we all know the answer. So the remaining question is: how much stronger can we get? Our union is not meant to be an axis seeking fake glory or expand our territory to other countries' land and sea, we are merely rediscovery our true name and cherish common tradition and similarity. This is very natural when the oriental world re-emerging as an equal counterpart to the west, you know, the history is just returning.

 

[Aepsilons]

Would you call yourself a pan-asian, more a japanese nationalist, or moderate? something else? Was I completely off?

A Japanese Patriot, with deep longing for East Asian Integrationism, specifically. Tho I believe Japan and the Confucian East Asian World plays an invaluable role in regional and global development, ultimately the focus should be in the harmonization of intraregional organizational systems. A deeply rooted East Asia will be the wellspring upon which culture, economic overflow , and political interplay will flow unto the rest of the region outside of NEA.

So if I had to put a "label" on myself I'd say I'm an East Asian Integrationist Patriot of Japanese Origin. There are various East Asian integrationists, actually, those from Korea, and those from Greater China. Systems and methodologies may differ on semantics but operational objectives are fluid and overarching.

Regards.

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

Look at it this way...

What you are saying is that you are willing to invite to dinner a man who, when you were weak and poor, broke into your house, robbed you of the few valuables you had, and to put it mildly, did atrocious things to your family. You are willing to do this even though the positions are reversed, that you are now in the superior and this man, while not as weak as you were once, is in no position to repeat what he did, but even so, your superiority is not enough to do the same as what he once did to you.

Hopefully, the main dish is extraordinarily tasty.

As long as China is willing to hold on to these historical issues, the JPNese is not going to be so foolish, like our academic here, to enter into this union where JPN will inevitably be treated as second class citizen. And please do not even try to convince me and the silent readers out there that China will treat JPN as an equal.

Japan will be treated as second class citizen within North East Asian Union??...LMAO this is 21st century we're not in medieval. Union doesn't mean Japan will be merged with China to form a new nation but an organiztion to coordinate our foreign affaire to serve both our interests. I can understand why Vietnameses, Pinoys and Americans are so scare of this Union because they will not longer be able to exploite the different between China and Japan.

 

[TaiShang]

Counter-terrorism is one thing the SCO could do while retaining sovereignty, but an actual effective fighting force with no centralization? Im not convinced, a military needs centralization of command, and that means centralization of authority to some extent.

At the moment, that's probably the feasible option when we think of an NEAU realistically. Afterall, there would be no existential serious threat to the Union given the combined capability, including China's nuclear power status.

I'd like to see that consensus codified, otherwise I don't think that it would hold much weight.

Acceptably, lots of techncal details, including writing the rules of decision-making. Nevertheless, a fair, equatable arrangement is always possible.

Its possible yes, I just dont believe its probable anytime soon based on the European and American experience, and more than 50 years in the future is anybodys guess.

We are definitely talking about mid to long term. What is important is incremental progress, just like the Euopean experience (although based on completely different cultural-institutional settings). Three years ago AIIB was anybody's guess. The purpose here is to initiate an integrationist discourse and academic theorising of a NEAU. There are forces toward it and counter forces; we like to be aware and in control of those.

The initial stages are doable while retaining your stated structure of the union, but how do you coordinate a war if there is no central coordinator? A central command structure/authority is a necessity for effective military operations. Disagreements in how to use resources in a hot war can't be tolerated. The military is one sector where autocratic management is superior to democratic management.

I agree. Sometimes war itself provides all the excuses to change and rebuild structures. Just like NATO. In peacetime (and NEAU would ensure to prolong regional peace), it is hard to think of it especially if there is no precedent.

Besides, like @Nihonjin1051 said, there is instituional learning and evolution; that is, starting out as an SCO-like institution and then gradually improving and improvising.

Even when we think of a central command and authority structure, this would not mean stripping the members off their sovereign rights. A NEAU Army as a stand alone force can be established with its own particular command structures as separated (but still coordinated) from the national armies.

In fact, the political and historical arguments between east asia countries are quite trifling and not real matter--public sentiment can be manipulated by political wills, territorial disputes can be solved by unification--as long as no other party involved. You can see China and Japan using each other as an excuse but both their eyes are on US, who is the only matter and the core of all tangles. Consider this: What if China have 5 carrier battle groups? What if Japan and Korea are more independed? Does the union still seem to be so far away? I think we all know the answer. So the remaining question is: how much stronger can we get? Our union is not meant to be an axis seeking fake glory or expand our territory to other countries' land and sea, we are merely rediscovery our true name and cherish common tradition and similarity. This is very natural when the oriental world re-emerging as an equal counterpart to the west, you know, the history is just returning.

Excellent post much beyond a TT designation. Due to time limitations, though, I want to comment on the above paragraph, though.

I think history operates through certain movers. At times, these movers force history to go backwards and at times forward. Organized religion is a strong ideational and material stimulant; but it forces history backwards, all the time (even the original message is somehow progressive, it gets old quickly in a few decades and being reactionary and stiff, it gets archaic and anti-progressive).

The mover for a "better" and more institutionalized Union among NE Asian countries is and will increasingly be the United States. For each actor, it provides the perfect excuse, as it stands as a pure military colossus in our region. For Japan and Korea, it is an excuse to seek normalization and genuine political and military independence. For China, it provides the excuse and rationale for its developmentalist foreign policy. For three of them, it is likely that, the US has the potential to provide the excuse to overcome petty disputes and differences and form a firm Union.

As such, we might be standing at a juncture to decide for ourselves whether to keep utilizing the US as a mover that forces our common history backwards. Or, we start to learn to utilize it to push it forward. There are signs that we are beginning to reverse the course of history and seek progressive common development. It is never without crises or road-blocks, but, the tendency is there.

Thus, having said all of these, we are not loosing our grip on reality on the ground. History is praxeological; that is, you need both theory and practice. I tend to view my task as being on the theoretical side, for most part, and this is, I guess, what we are doing here, as the above post, for example, empirically verifies the cultural and socio-political rationale for a NEAU. Hope the readers will view this entire debate from such angel.

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

A Japanese Patriot, with deep longing for East Asian Integrationism, specifically. Tho I believe Japan and the Confucian East Asian World plays an invaluable role in regional and global development, ultimately the focus should be in the harmonization of intraregional organizational systems. A deeply rooted East Asia will be the wellspring upon which culture, economic overflow , and political interplay will flow unto the rest of the region outside of NEA.

So if I had to put a "label" on myself I'd say I'm an East Asian Integrationist Patriot of Japanese Origin. There are various East Asian integrationists, actually, those from Korea, and those from Greater China. Systems and methodologies may differ on semantics but operational objectives are fluid and overarching.

Regards.

How much chance do you think that this North East Asian integration will be materialized? if there is any movement in Japan in favor to push forward this idea?

 

[TaiShang]

Japan will be treated as second class citizen within North East Asian Union??...LMAO this is 21st century we're not in medieval. Union doesn't mean Japan will be merged with China to form a new nation but an organiztion to coordinate our foreign affaire to serve both our interests. I can understand why Vietaaneses, Pinoys and Americans are so scare of this Union because they will not longer be able to exploite the different between China and Japan.

Our union will eventually be better and, unlike how, for example, Californians see Alabamans as some backward second class uneducated folks, it will be based on equality (as has been historically so) and fair representation.

 

[anon45]

happy to say the admin helped me get my account back!

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

Our union will eventually be better and, unlike how, for example, Californians see Alabamans as some backward second class uneducated folks, it will be based on equality (as has been historically so) and fair representation.

Japan is 3th economic power, high tech industrialized nation, hard work, intelligent people and same Confucius spirit as Chinese, only retards will treate Japanese as 2nd class citizen.

happy to say the admin helped me get my account back!

lol we will not go easy on you since we all know @anon45 and not the innocent newbie

 

[TaiShang]

Japan is 3th economic power, high tech industrialized nation, hard work, intelligent people and same Confucius spirit as Chinese, only retards will treate Japanese as 2nd class.

Exactly.

I have taken a class named "Public Adminsitration in East Asia" and there we learned how much China studied Korea, Japan and Singapore in terms of public management. China has always recognized the great success of Japan and aimed to learn from it with no bad feeling.

But, as @soundwave1987 has mentioned above, the social-cultural dynamics between China, Japan and Korea, even at the worst time, are completely lost to foreigners and to those Westernized folks.

China's customs, including diplomatic culture, has been historically designed to respect the neighbors, not to belittle them. And this spirit still runs deep in our thinking.

 

[xunzi]

Yes, you do. According to the Shinto beliefs, the souls are interned, the bodies, if any, are of lesser importance. Is there a ritual that the JPNese can perform to theologically 'remove' those souls or relocate them ? Ask our JPNese member.

If there is a will, then anything is possible.

Then you and I are essentially in agreement that this union is nothing more than an academic fantasy.

From our perspective, we are lukewarm because there isn't much benefit to this union. Though, the benefit of getting rid of the US certainly intriguing and deserve some thinking on our part because there is no chance of getting rid of the US without compromise on the union to satisfy the Korean and Japanese.