No One Can Seperate Islam and Pakistan: Gen. Kayani

[Bhaarat]

taleban is an honourable title, it is insult that they refer themselves as taleban

I know that it is a honorouble islamic title. IIRC, it means a student of islam or something similar, right?!

no they arent....

Thats PA's claim. TTP claim the same about PA.

learn about Islam and its teachings, then you'd get answers to all your questions

Is waging jihad unislamic?
Is killing munafiq or destroying their masjid unislamic?
Is killing those who support kufr US unislamic?
Is fighting for Sharia unislamic?

 

[waraich66]

How well is that working for you so far.

Setting the Record Straight: The Miracle of Islamic Science

Setting the Record Straight

I think muslim students of Afghanistan Pakistan and India, can repeat miracles in research and development again if were given oppurtunity similar to students of Howard and MIT and Stanford.

 

[seekers]

Setting the Record Straight: The Miracle of Islamic Science

Setting the Record Straight

I think muslim students of Afghanistan Pakistan and India, can repeat miracles in research and development again if were given oppurtunity similar to students of Howard and MIT and Stanford.

Reality is that NOW, madressas student producing suicide bomber miracle.

Who give the opportunity??? do madressas owners allow to get any knowledge from US and Europe.???

today madressas in Pakistan are producing 90% Hafiz who have no knowledge of Qurran(even a translation in urdu), just RATTU TOTTAS

their only placement is imam masjid or join jihadi groups.

 

[Specialist One]

Reality is that NOW, madressas student producing suicide bomber miracle.
today madressas in Pakistan are producing 90% Hafiz who have no knowledge of Qurran(even a translation in urdu), just RATTU TOTTAS

their only placement is imam masjid or join jihadi groups.

It is right that there are many madrissas where this thing is happening but i guess that the percentage is wrong... just be tarnishing the image of all madrissas and mosques we r not helping Islam.. i know many a good madrissas in Pakistan .. and at the same very time there are many places aside madrissas where this terrorism is going on ...
I guess there is need to educate ... to educate through media.. through common men and through us .... good education and i mean really good education can bring peace and justice in this country

 

[All-Green]

Is waging jihad unislamic?
Is killing munafiq or destroying their masjid unislamic?
Is killing those who support kufr US unislamic?
Is fighting for Sharia unislamic?

Yes and no, Islamic code seems like a license to kill for those who deliberately misinterpret it.
However you have to do some research and be free of malice towards Islam, then it all seems very logical and principled.

The term Jihad is used for struggle and can be anything from betterment of society to standing up for justice, however standing up does not mean a military struggle...term of Jihad is now being used by the extremists to deviate the Muslims from their true path of tolerance.
The Muslims of old honored most the men of virtue and mercy.
Any noble cause can be Jihad as per its definition but the extremists only focus on the military aspect and in this they also completely distort the preconditions of initiating a Jihad.

Military Jihad is only one type and is aimed at fighting those who either

A) attack the Muslims
B) stop the message of Islam for being delivered at all.
C) persecute Muslims for following their religion

The message of Islam is being delivered all over the world and very few places are Muslims persecuted for following their religion so in these two categories even USA cannot be labeled as legitimate target and so too Pakistan.
As far attacking the Muslims is concerned the PA has not directly attacked Muslims for being Muslims so that too does not legitimize any so called Jihad against Pakistan.

Munafiq were those who overtly became Muslims but were secretly plotting the downfall of the Prophet Muhammad PBUH.
A Munafiq can usually not be defined by the current lot of Muslims since we have no divine connection by which to judge what is in the hearts of men.
The Prophet Muhammad PBUH was the messenger of Allah and so onto him were revealed the secrets and the hidden truth which cannot be conveyed to us, by virtue of his being a messenger of Allah the Prophet was made aware of this dangerous group which was polluting a pure society and was warned by Allah to be watchful of this lot.
Clearly there cannot be similar surity these days if a person stands up and accuses someone of being Munafiq.
Therefore if a person is to say that he is a Muslim and he offers the Kalma and believes in the oneness of Allah...there is no other major benchmark by which i can call him a Munafiq.
Any deviation on the other matters by such a person can be called failing to meet his duties as a Muslim but to say that he is a Munafiq is actually an accusation at his intention and therefore is not a very easy thing to do in the court or society.
For ease of definition a Munafiq is one who claims to be a true Muslim but in his heart he does not believe in Islam, clearly not something to judge for the likes of us till the Muslim in question openly says that he does not believe in Allah and is just being a Muslim to deceive others...

Regarding Kafir there are many complications here as well.
Usually the Kaffir term has been used for those people amongst whom the Messenger of Allah was present and they openly rejected his calls to heed the word of Allah, the verses in Quran referring to the treachery of the christian and Jews are actually very specific to the time when there were several tribes of Jews and Christians who were secretly plotting to break away from the pacts in which they had entered with the Prophet PBUH and were negotiating such an arrangement with the severely anti Muslim group in control of Mecca.
So in truth a Kaffir is the one who rejects the truth and whereas certainly the man who openly opposed the Prophet Muhammad PBUH is a Kaffir because before him stood the word of Allah and he deliberately opposed it, same logic cannot be applied to non Muslims today.
Also if we come to the people of the book, even then they were recognized as those closer to the Muslims than those who were Pagans etc.
This is a very logical explanation of Kaffir because as a community the Muslims can freely interact with the Christian and Jews and even intermarry.
One of the major reasons the marriage has been restricted to those of non Muslims women and not men is because Islam legally guaranteed many rights and inheritance to the women which was not the case in Arabia or nearly all of the world in those days.

Leave it to the ignorance of the few to cloud one of the most enlightened ways of life and try to twist it into something else for personal gains.

The guidance of the first Caliph of Islam based on what he learned from the Prophet Muhammad PBUH as to the manner of military Jihad is quite clear and is based on values of the highest order...

"Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone."

 

[Seadog1]

The main recruiter for Islamic terrorism has always been radical Islamic clerics, especially from Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. The Saudi brand of Islam, Wahhabism, has always stressed hatred for infidels and forced conversion .

Religious hatred is nothing new, Wahhabism is practiced by many Saudis made rich by half a century of increasing oil wealth. Everyone is urged to join the struggle ("jihad") for making the world Moslem.

This is nothing new radicalism comes along every few generations. By the 1980s, many ******* had become disillusioned with socialism and democracy. Islamic conservatives had been suggesting the “Islamic way.” This meant using Islam as a form of government, as well as a religion.

This is how Islam worked back in the beginning. Unfortunately, it didn’t work back then. This failure was explained away (as allways someone else’s fault, or not doing it right, take your pick). Its still that way.

And so began the popularity of radical Islam. When you’re on a mission from God, the ends justify the means.

It was a small step from accepting the need for an Islamic form of government, and then getting behind terrorism in the name of God.

Besides, Arab armies had not been able to defeat infidel armies for a long, long time. Terrorism and the pure hearts of suicidal Islamic warriors would have to do.

The problem is simply that Islamic radicals have always been a part of Islam. They have been the main reason for the backwardness of Islamic countries.

A thousand years ago, it was the Islamic radicals who halted the work of Islamic scientists. This continues, with the current Islamic radicals opposing schools that don't put the main emphasis on religion, or teach girls at all.

There are four times more women Nobel laureates from the West than Islamic laureates of any gender.

 

[Bhaarat]

All-Green,
very good post. I appreciate your intelligent and in-depth post. But my points still stand.

The short of it all is that:

-waging Jihad is not wrong. TTP claims to do that. No esteemed religious figure within or out of Pakistan has conclusively proven that TTP are waging wrong Jihad.

-Killing munafiqs is not wrong. TTP claims that they are guided by Rasullah Mohammed(PBUH).

-Killing Kafirs or supporters of Kafirs is not wrong. TTP claims that PA has become an agent of US(a kafir nation that has supported Jews over Muslims).

I understand that you are saying most of these issues are complex and need proper perspective. You are saying that some of these things are allowed in Islam only during the time of Mohammed and that too within a specific situation. But as you rightly said, general people do not agree with that assessment. Also religious figures largely agree that the above three are part of Islam provided certain preconditions are met. TTP claims that these conditions have been met.

BTW, TTP are talibs, they are supposed to be the students of Islam, I imagine they would know all these concepts better than most.

Again, I appreciate your cool and well-articulated post bereft of any rhetoric, its like fresh air after seeing some other posters who are high on rhetoric and low on content.

 

[waraich66]

Yes and no, Islamic code seems like a license to kill for those who deliberately misinterpret it.
However you have to do some research and be free of malice towards Islam, then it all seems very logical and principled.

The term Jihad is used for struggle and can be anything from betterment of society to standing up for justice, however standing up does not mean a military struggle...term of Jihad is now being used by the extremists to deviate the Muslims from their true path of tolerance.
The Muslims of old honored most the men of virtue and mercy.
Any noble cause can be Jihad as per its definition but the extremists only focus on the military aspect and in this they also completely distort the preconditions of initiating a Jihad.

Military Jihad is only one type and is aimed at fighting those who either

A) attack the Muslims
B) stop the message of Islam for being delivered at all.
C) persecute Muslims for following their religion

The message of Islam is being delivered all over the world and very few places are Muslims persecuted for following their religion so in these two categories even USA cannot be labeled as legitimate target and so too Pakistan.
As far attacking the Muslims is concerned the PA has not directly attacked Muslims for being Muslims so that too does not legitimize any so called Jihad against Pakistan.

Munafiq were those who overtly became Muslims but were secretly plotting the downfall of the Prophet Muhammad PBUH.
A Munafiq can usually not be defined by the current lot of Muslims since we have no divine connection by which to judge what is in the hearts of men.
The Prophet Muhammad PBUH was the messenger of Allah and so onto him were revealed the secrets and the hidden truth which cannot be conveyed to us, by virtue of his being a messenger of Allah the Prophet was made aware of this dangerous group which was polluting a pure society and was warned by Allah to be watchful of this lot.
Clearly there cannot be similar surity these days if a person stands up and accuses someone of being Munafiq.
Therefore if a person is to say that he is a Muslim and he offers the Kalma and believes in the oneness of Allah...there is no other major benchmark by which i can call him a Munafiq.
Any deviation on the other matters by such a person can be called failing to meet his duties as a Muslim but to say that he is a Munafiq is actually an accusation at his intention and therefore is not a very easy thing to do in the court or society.
For ease of definition a Munafiq is one who claims to be a true Muslim but in his heart he does not believe in Islam, clearly not something to judge for the likes of us till the Muslim in question openly says that he does not believe in Allah and is just being a Muslim to deceive others...

Regarding Kafir there are many complications here as well.
Usually the Kaffir term has been used for those people amongst whom the Messenger of Allah was present and they openly rejected his calls to heed the word of Allah, the verses in Quran referring to the treachery of the christian and Jews are actually very specific to the time when there were several tribes of Jews and Christians who were secretly plotting to break away from the pacts in which they had entered with the Prophet PBUH and were negotiating such an arrangement with the severely anti Muslim group in control of Mecca.
So in truth a Kaffir is the one who rejects the truth and whereas certainly the man who openly opposed the Prophet Muhammad PBUH is a Kaffir because before him stood the word of Allah and he deliberately opposed it, same logic cannot be applied to non Muslims today.
Also if we come to the people of the book, even then they were recognized as those closer to the Muslims than those who were Pagans etc.
This is a very logical explanation of Kaffir because as a community the Muslims can freely interact with the Christian and Jews and even intermarry.
One of the major reasons the marriage has been restricted to those of non Muslims women and not men is because Islam legally guaranteed many rights and inheritance to the women which was not the case in Arabia or nearly all of the world in those days.

Leave it to the ignorance of the few to cloud one of the most enlightened ways of life and try to twist it into something else for personal gains.

The guidance of the first Caliph of Islam based on what he learned from the Prophet Muhammad PBUH as to the manner of military Jihad is quite clear and is based on values of the highest order...

"Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone."

US past and present track record in Palestine and Afghanistan is proof of anti islamic policies.

GOP is getting aid from US and providing logistic support is also wrong and contradictory to islamic principles.

Army top brass is not bound to act on GOP orders contradictory to Islamic principles and constitution of Pakistan.

Islam dont allow breach of principles at any cost, Musharaf did mistakes by allowing US to use our soil against Afghanistan can be term as munafaqat because of deviation of islamic principles and rules.

 

[waraich66]

The main recruiter for Islamic terrorism has always been radical Islamic clerics, especially from Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. The Saudi brand of Islam, Wahhabism, has always stressed hatred for infidels and forced conversion .

Religious hatred is nothing new, Wahhabism is practiced by many Saudis made rich by half a century of increasing oil wealth. Everyone is urged to join the struggle ("jihad") for making the world Moslem.

This is nothing new radicalism comes along every few generations. By the 1980s, many ******* had become disillusioned with socialism and democracy. Islamic conservatives had been suggesting the “Islamic way.” This meant using Islam as a form of government, as well as a religion.

This is how Islam worked back in the beginning. Unfortunately, it didn’t work back then. This failure was explained away (as allways someone else’s fault, or not doing it right, take your pick). Its still that way.

And so began the popularity of radical Islam. When you’re on a mission from God, the ends justify the means.

It was a small step from accepting the need for an Islamic form of government, and then getting behind terrorism in the name of God.

Besides, Arab armies had not been able to defeat infidel armies for a long, long time. Terrorism and the pure hearts of suicidal Islamic warriors would have to do.

The problem is simply that Islamic radicals have always been a part of Islam. They have been the main reason for the backwardness of Islamic countries.

A thousand years ago, it was the Islamic radicals who halted the work of Islamic scientists. This continues, with the current Islamic radicals opposing schools that don't put the main emphasis on religion, or teach girls at all.

There are four times more women Nobel laureates from the West than Islamic laureates of any gender.

Majority of Saudis follow Imam Malik fiqa there is no wahabisim exist in saudi arabia Wahab was a claric (maliki fiqa follower) who supported King Abdul Aziz for formation and unity of Kingdom., better read about islamic four fiqas (Malik,Hanafi,Shafi,Hanbali) to understand islam.

Jehad is most important part of our faith , it is necessary for servival and help to develop condusive environment in which muslims can pratice five pillars of islam.



There are type of jehad in islam, Jehad bil mal ,jehad bil nafas, jehad bil saif.

Jehad bil mal and nafas is contiouse jehad but jehad bil saif (holy war) is valid if any one attack on muslim ummah or country even single muslim.

That is reason Saudis,Egyptians,Talaban, Chechins,Tajik,Uzbik,muslims are voulateerly participating in jehad against US.

I dont know why Iran is not doing jehad against USA, hizbullah is only doing jehad.

Basically it is responsibility of Khalifa of muslim ummah to decide jehad on the recommendation of shourah but you know there is no khalifa or islamic state exist in world therefore it is upto indivdual groups or person to do jehad against aggressor.

I dont know US government or think tank know about this fatwa or not.

 

[Seadog1]

US past and present track record in Palestine and Afghanistan is proof of anti islamic policies.

GOP is getting aid from US and providing logistic support is also wrong and contradictory to islamic principles.

Army top brass is not bound to act on GOP orders contradictory to Islamic principles and constitution of Pakistan.

Islam dont allow breach of principles at any cost, Musharaf did mistakes by allowing US to use our soil against Afghanistan can be term as munafaqat because of deviation of islamic principles and rules.

At the time Musharaf had a choice,,,either allow the USA to attack Afghanistan or all out war with the USA and perhaps NATO...

During last week’s US media blitz to promote his new book, Musharraf claimed soon after 9/11, US Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage warned Lt. Gen. Mahmud Ahmed, head of ISI, Pakistan’s intelligence service, the US would “bomb Pakistan back to the Stone Age” if it did not immediately turn against its Afghan ally, Taliban, and allow the US to use military bases in Pakistan to invade Afghanistan.

 

[waraich66]

At the time Musharaf had a choice,,,either allow the USA to attack Afghanistan or all out war with the USA and perhaps NATO...

General Musharaf before accepting threat of US , should take in confidence all core camanders and nation but he did coward decision to support US because of lust of money and power.

Same threats were given to Nawaz Sharif before nuke tests but he refused all grants but he prefered national pride and honour .

 

[All-Green]

US past and present track record in Palestine and Afghanistan is proof of anti islamic policies.

GOP is getting aid from US and providing logistic support is also wrong and contradictory to islamic principles.

Army top brass is not bound to act on GOP orders contradictory to Islamic principles and constitution of Pakistan.

Islam dont allow breach of principles at any cost, Musharaf did mistakes by allowing US to use our soil against Afghanistan can be term as munafaqat because of deviation of islamic principles and rules.

What about GOP telling Taliban that Al Qaeda and Osama need to be handed over...as also told to Taliban by Saudi Arabia...
Actually KSA was already upset with Taliban when they refused to handover Osama before since he was wanted in other terrorist cases as well and had been convicted in anti State terrorism, penalty for which is death...does harbouring a retard like Osama also seem a pure act which is according to the teachings of Islam?
Certainly not...

I guess if we consider the GOP to have compromised then the Taliban also chose to protect a terrorist till perhaps the end when they saw the writing on the wall.
Therefore no one is that innocent so as to justify what is being perpetrated against Pakistan right now.

 

[Seadog1]

General Musharaf before accepting threat of US , should take in confidence all core camanders and nation but he did coward decision to support US because of lust of money and power.

Same threats were given to Nawaz Sharif before nuke tests but he refused all grants but he prefered national pride and honour .

ISI sources say the Bush Administration threatened to bomb faithful old ally Pakistan, cut off its oil, collapse its banking system and call in its loans. More frightening, Washington also threatened to `unleash’ India against Pakistan, either allowing India to conquer the Pakistani-held portion of disputed Kashmir, or give Delhi a green light to invade all of Pakistan, possibly with American assistance.

Leaked cabinet documents from 10 Downing Street show three months before invading Iraq in 2003, President Bush told British PM Tony Blair that once he finished off Iraq, he planned to `go after’ Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Pakistan was in America’s cross hairs.

Gen. Musharraf thus faced a horrible choice: abandon Pakistan’s national interests in Afghanistan for which it had faced down the mighty Soviet Union in the 1980’s. Allow a hostile regime to be established there dominated by Pakistan’s blood enemies, the Afghan Communists, Iran and India. And abandon Pakistan’s most cherished national cause, the 50-year struggle to free Kashmir of Indian rule.

Or else stab anti-Communist ally Taliban in the back, give military bases to the US, abandon the struggle in Kashmir, bow to Washington’s commands, and face the wrath of Pakistanis crying out that Musharraf had sold out to the Americans. This is, of course, what has happened, leaving Musharraf increasingly isolated and unpopular.

Pakistan’s media bitterly noted that Taliban’s tribal warriors resisted US B-52 carpet bombing for two weeks. Pakistan caved in after a single threatening phone call.

Musharraf claimed he `war gamed’ a US attack and concluded his nation would lose. Pakistan might have resisted a US attack, but certainly not a joint US-Indian offensive. So he had little choice.

I think Musharraf is one of the most intelligent, honest and realistic leaders in Pakistans history.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Pakistan had more to lose in the 2 weeks B 52 bombings than the taliban could lose in a year of B 52 bombings----.

Afg were living in stone age---what would that bombing do to them---nothing---a little further back into stone age. We were, on the other hand on the brink of moving into the mainstream--.

You understand the punjabi saying----" SAU '1OO' WASSAL ( ONIONS) WE KHAIY---TYE SAU '100' LITTAR WE KHAIY "---which means that the the criminal was made to eat 100 onions---and got the thrashing of the police leatehr strap a 100 times over before admitting to the crime---.


Anyway---the General and the pakistani populace is so full of it---claiming themselves to be the ultimate guardians of islam----.

There is no guardian of islam---anyone who makes this statement is committing SHIRK---the ultimate sin---only Allah the almighty is the guardian of islam, the holy Qura'an, the name of prophet Muhammad---any muslim who claims of such is indeed condemned by Allah.

This guy cannot provide basic security to the nation from local insurgents---the pakistanis cannot keep their own house in order---and they want to claim to be the guardians of the realm---it amazes me---what a dellusion my pakistani compatriots are living in.

 

[TalibanSwatter]

The main recruiter for Islamic terrorism has always been radical Islamic clerics, especially from Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. The Saudi brand of Islam, Wahhabism, has always stressed hatred for infidels and forced conversion .

Religious hatred is nothing new, Wahhabism is practiced by many Saudis made rich by half a century of increasing oil wealth. Everyone is urged to join the struggle ("jihad") for making the world Moslem.

This is nothing new radicalism comes along every few generations. By the 1980s, many ******* had become disillusioned with socialism and democracy. Islamic conservatives had been suggesting the “Islamic way.” This meant using Islam as a form of government, as well as a religion.


A thousand years ago, it was the Islamic radicals who halted the work of Islamic scientists. This continues, with the current Islamic radicals opposing schools that don't put the main emphasis on religion, or teach girls at all.

There are four times more women Nobel laureates from the West than Islamic laureates of any gender.

The Wahhabis in Saudi call themselves Salafi - a concocted fascist pseudo-religious ideology that promotes bigotry, intolerance and war mongering against all who oppose the Salafi doctrine.

The Salafis are the modern-day Khwarijis powered by petrodollars - groups like the TTP are their rabid ideological offspring.